It does seem to be the only way to reconcile the increasing fragmentation of the electorate. I get that people dislike the post-election horsetrading, but at least you can be reasonably certain that your vote can go towards parties and platforms that you agree with, without having to fret over "the other guys getting in" if you vote a certain way.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's the system we are in. Its unfortunate, and it is a problem. But until PR comes in, voting with your conscience can inadvertently bring quite the opposite to what you intended.
I tend to agree. If we introduced PR and reformed the media to be truly balanced then we may be able to have truly representative democracy.
It feels like a pipe dream at this stage tbh!
The insinuation here is that voting for anyone but labour isn't voting to remain, despite labour lot being a remain party.
There's a greater chance of watering down Brexit is you vote for a clearly anti Brexit party (Lib Dems) as that would be their red line for any coalition.
Let's say Tories win 275 seats and Lib Dems win 80 seats. The Tories would prefer to water down Brexit to appease the Lib Dems, rather than give power to Corbyn.
It can but shifts in voting patterns do effect change. Also voting for the bad to prevent the awful is bound to end up with a sole choice between the bad and the awful... That's obvious.
I voted to leave and despise Corbyn, however I won't vote for either the Brexit Party or Johnson's Tories (I'll vote Libertarian if they stand)
Are you just deliberately misunderstanding what I'm saying now/taking the piss for the sake of argument? How on earth have you made the logical leaps you have from my simple point that there is not really a plausible scenario in which Brexit is reversed without the presence of the Labour party in office. The Con/LD coalition you posit suggests a watered down Brexit, which is still Brexit. My point is really not hard to understand and I am unsure as to why you are still making the absurd inference that I am suggesting that the only legitimate Remain vote is a vote for Labour.
They're clearly not interested in obtaining votes - no-one must challenge the 'Jeremy can do no wrong' cult.
Few weeks ago I said they'd be lucky to get third, are we now looking at fourth?
Go to a bookies.
Haven't got one here- the other problem is that here it's not ooh Jeremy Corbyn , it's who's Jeremy Corbyn?
Good god this is hard work with you being either disingenuous or merely contrarian.
Let's try again. Do you think Labour winning 230 seats and Lib Dems winning 100 seats would be more of less likely to result in Brexit than Jeremy Corbyn winning a 100 seat majority?
Head online, there's hundreds of them. Put your money where your prediction is and you'll absolutely rake it in.
The Lib Dems would agree to a watered down Brexit within 24 hours of negotiating with the Tories. Maybe in exchange for 10p carrier bags.
Not allowed.
Looking at what happened today, where it seemingly was turned into a "support Corbyn" matter to prevent him suffering a loss, it's hard not to see a similar thing happening in a special conference.
Perhaps... Though wouldn't labour have to win power (a virtually impossible task with the current brexit fudge I think) for there to even be a special conference ... So it's unlikely
But yeah if Corbyn negotiates a deal and he says it's an amazing deal then for sure the special conference becomes lots of oooooh Jeremy Corbyn and purge anybody who disagrees
My post was in reference to the difference between a Labour-Lib Dem coalition Vs a Labour majority.
A Labour-Lib Dem coalition is more likely to deliver Brexit than a Labour majority. Simply because the former is far more likely to pressure into campaigning for remain in a second referendum whereas the latter is likely to campaign for a rehashed version of Theresa May's deal with he declaration being rehashed to include platitudes on "workers rights".
This is simple of course. A coalition of ardent remain and undecided is going to be far more remain than a majority of undecided.
So let me get this straight, Labour refused to support remain, against the wishes of the majority of its members, on a dubious show of hands denying a card vote, all to support the policy of a man who has campaigned for decades for more democratic control of the party's policies.
They have done this to avoid alienating the 30% of their supporters who voted leave. The main problem these Labour supporting leavers have with the EU is free movement of people, which Labour now plan on guaranteeing in any event.
So they alienate (again) the 70% of their voters who supported remain to avoid losing the support of the 30% who backed leave, only to propose the one policy guaranteed to drive those voters into the arms of Farage or Johnson, all whilst proving their leader to be a hypocrite.
Oh, and just incase there was anyone left who still might vote Labour, they also want to ban fee paying schools and confiscate and 'redistribute' private property, exactly the kind of extreme left wing nonsense that scares the hell out of everybody else.
Jesus fecking Christ, I knew Corbyn wasn't too bright but these are the most absurd political moves I can think of in my lifetime, far worse than the '83 manifesto, which at least was popular with some. It's as if Corbyn is some deep undercover agent put in place to guarantee Labour lose the next election.
I cannot imagine Labour MPs voting for a GE with these policies.
It's quite amazing isn't it.
Everything I’ve read about how Labour conferences work makes me want to stick pins in my eyes rather than ever experience one first hand.
Yeah, it seems to have been a very bad conference this year. The party is badly divided, people don't vote for those at GE's.
Even with previous ones though, apparently from what I've heard the processes for everything are incredibly arcane and complicated, people take up hours of meeting time rambling about their pet issues, and the whole thing just sounds like the most inefficient use of time ever. Not to mention everyone calling each other 'comrade' which is a personal pet hate I'll admit.
My mother-in-law, in her 70s, voted Labour all her life, her father was a Labour councilor has told me last night she won’t be voting Labour for the first time ever though she doesn’t know who to vote for. She hates the tories and is wary of lib Dems
If there’s nobody to vote for, there is always somebody to vote against.
I'm in a similar situation, I've voted Labour all my life until the last EU election when I voted Lib Dem for the first time. The Tories under Johnson are obviously out of the question, Labour under Corbyn and momentum are simply a joke and the Greens is a wasted vote so I'm left with the Lib Dems again. I have doubts about them but what other choice is there?
I think this is a view that an increasing number of traditional Labour voters now find themselves in.
There's a good few in here thst have taken this position but as i said nearly a year ago whenever they get something they just move the goalposts.
Not being one of those you refer to, but the people you are referring are not getting anything. They're not getting to vote on the only actual possible deal, they're not going to be able to vote on Corbyn's unicorn deal because it will never happen and equally has already been rejected by parliament three times just like the actual Withdrawal Agreement.
On top of that most of the Labour MPs know Corbyn's proposal is ridiculous and would be campaigning for Remain anyway.
You can imagine the first serious meeting between a Labour Brexit Minister (presumably Starmer) and Barnier.
So if I let you have your unicorns,says Barnier, will you campaigning in a referendum for your unicorn deal or will you be campaigning for Remain?
If I was living in the UK I would do anything to try to get the UK to remain -any form of Brexit, unicorn or not will be a disaster and would never accept to vote for anyone who proposes to leave.
You have to admire the party's ability to always look dysfunctional.
I know, the thing is a sensible centrist Labour leader who listened to their membership (as it was before momentum/Corbyn took over) would walk the next election.
If Labour don't get any changes it'll be Mays deal they get to vote on so i don't know what you mean.
The People's Vote wanted a remain vs deal referendum and they didn't want Corbyn involved. It seems they've got both of those wishes.
They didn't listen to their membership that's why we have the likes of momentum. They may have listened to their voters and non-voters and made policy as broad as possible but those same people who demanded a broad approach are now saying to ignore a sizable section of the electorate.
They can't really be called centrists anymore because they're not.
Do you seriously believe that the people wanting another referendum want anything else other than to change the vote to Remain.
Why would anyone who wants to remain choose a version of leave, die slowly or quickly?
The Labour conference will be a bit odd tomorrow if all the MPs have to bog off back to parliament again.
Perhaps i misunderstood your earlier statement. I'm not suggesting they'll vote leave I'm saying the people's vote stated position was that we should have a second referendum as we now know the deal on offer so it would be democratic to ask the public.
Just because you want an outcome doesn't mean you don't also have an opinion on the fairest method to decide.
It looks certain that parties will fulfil the people's vote wishes so now people need to find another element to complain about but in the grand scheme of things, the nation has got a second chance its a victory and people shouldn't be so angry.
I would guess that what makes people angry is that most people realise Corbyn's "deal" is a non-starter but he insists on it as a sensible deal which he would negotiate within three months (this is the most funniest bit) and that the EU would even possible agree to it and then put to parliament who have already rejected it three times as well as the current WA which has also been rejected three times by parliament and at the same time the majority of Labour MPs will be campaigning against their own deal.
People know what the Tories will campaign for, same applies for the LibDems and the Brexit party and the SNP but no-one has a clue what to expect from the Labour party and why would they trust them.