Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

F-Red said:
The sign of a great leader is making great decisions, this is where Corbyn falls down with his sit on the fence approach and why he has very slim chances of winning any election or majority.
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But there is no clear evidence that adopting a pro-Remain stance is a "great decision".
 
Sweet Square said:
You saying it isn't clear doesn't make it true. You can disagree with it etc but its a clear and understandably position. As for it being a binary position, again only if you chose it to be.
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Well of course, it's my opinion. However the fact that he has no chance of winning an election would suggest that the majority of voters have the same interpretation. Having no clear policy or opinion makes him a weak leader, which in order to gain a majority is a one way ticket to failing.

Sweet Square said:
I'm not sure how you can argue voters like certainty, the past 3 years suggest otherwise. Also last couple of elections ? We've had one general election with resulted in a tory/dup government and one EU election which only 37& of the voting public took part in.
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Certainty in policy - i.e. they know what someone is standing for, neutral on the most important topic for the last 3 years has risk to be perceived as a bit of a cop out. Eg. he doesn't know what he's doing.
 
BobbyManc said:
But there is no clear evidence that adopting a pro-Remain stance is a "great decision".
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Making no decision is worse. If he's leading a true opposition party then he would have a position. It's a sign of the times when the Lib Dem's look more credible with a clear position and policies to support that. You may not agree with it, but they have a plan.
 
Redlambs said:
But there is clear evidence of making no decision is not a "great decision".
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Such as? And I would dispute the notion that it is 'no decision', because he is offering a second referendum which is the same policy as the other Remain parties, and Labour MPs are free to campaign for what they want. Wilson's similar approach of 'no decision' as you phrase it seemed to work alright for him.
 
F-Red said:
Making no decision is worse. If he's leading a true opposition party then he would have a position. It's a sign of the times when the Lib Dem's look more credible with a clear position and policies to support that. You may not agree with it, but they have a plan.
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And if Labour only had 15 or so seats in the HoC, I'm sure their Brexit policy would look a hell of a lot different too.
 
F-Red said:
Making no decision is worse. If he's leading a true opposition party then he would have a position. It's a sign of the times when the Lib Dem's look more credible with a clear position and policies to support that. You may not agree with it, but they have a plan.
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Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.

Also the Lib Dems are campaigning for a people vote. The revoke stuff(Which will far more unlikely to happen than a Labour government)was to get headlines and energise their base.
 
F-Red said:
Making no decision is worse. If he's leading a true opposition party then he would have a position. It's a sign of the times when the Lib Dem's look more credible with a clear position and policies to support that. You may not agree with it, but they have a plan.
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In your opinion maybe. Lots of Labour constituencies voted leave.
 
BobbyManc said:
Such as? And I would dispute the notion that it is 'no decision', because he is offering a second referendum which is the same policy as the other Remain parties, and Labour MPs are free to campaign for what they want. Wilson's similar approach of 'no decision' as you phrase it seemed to work alright for him.
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Such as losing an election. And more than likely losing the next one.

To this current Tory party.

I mean, I'm not sure what more evidence you need that their fence sitting isn't working and I'm sure you'll try to dress it up and make excuses, but to me that's part of the problem. They keep doing the same old thing, well not doing anything really, they aren't getting in. And people just accept it thinking it will all miraculously change and Labour will find themselves back in power.
 
Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.
 
BobbyManc said:
And if Labour only had 15 or so seats in the HoC, I'm sure their Brexit policy would look a hell of a lot different too.
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Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.

Sweet Square said:
Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.

Also the Lib Dems are campaigning for a people vote. The revoke stuff(Which will far more unlikely to happen than a Labour government)was to get headlines and energise their base.
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They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass. In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.

Fluctuation0161 said:
In your opinion maybe. Lots of Labour constituencies voted leave.
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Which is bizarre with the approach of sitting on the fence, he's literally appealing to no one externally apart from loyal people in his party. Frustrating to watch.
 
711 said:
Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.
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What's not to get?

They want him out, but they don't want him out. Not yet anyway, they want to wait so brexit is or isn't brexit so they can maybe or maybe not push for a GE.

Perfect sense.
 
Redlambs said:
Such as losing an election. And more than likely losing the next one.

To this current Tory party.

I mean, I'm not sure what more evidence you need that their fence sitting isn't working and I'm sure you'll try to dress it up and make excuses, but to me that's part of the problem. They keep doing the same old thing, well not doing anything really, they aren't getting in. And people just accept it thinking it will all miraculously change and Labour will find themselves back in power.
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Hold on. Labour's position for the last election was not 'no decision'. It was unambiguously to Leave; they pledged to honour the result of the referendum. Moreover, that was a good election result for Labour. A big improvement on Miliband's performance, largest increase in a vote share since Attlee's government, and while having to contend with Brexit and a more hostile media than Miliband's Labour did.

You've literally offered no evidence that their fence sitting isn't working/going to work compared to their other options (the 2017 election is literally not evidence that a stance adopted only after 2017 is not working, and a prediction for an upcoming election is literally not evidence either), and now you're claiming what more do I need. That's the main problem. People making claims with nothing to back it up and dressing it up as fact.
 
F-Red said:
Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.
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Blocking No Deal and supporting a second referendum is opposing the government. Just because Corbyn is not coming out waving an EU flag does not mean that Labour are not opposing the government on Brexit.
 
BobbyManc said:
Blocking No Deal and supporting a second referendum is opposing the government. Just because Corbyn is not coming out waving an EU flag does not mean that Labour are not opposing the government on Brexit.
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True.

He does not want Brexit to suck the air out of the GE.

By talking about policies that would help people, he wants to differentiate from the other parties.
 
F-Red said:
Having a position on what is essentially a binary vote position gives the credibility. Labour have everything to gain by doing so, but for some weird reason they aren't taking the opportunity to oppose the government. If they can't do it, then i would rather someone else step in and hold the government accountable.



They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass. In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.



Which is bizarre with the approach of sitting on the fence, he's literally appealing to no one externally apart from loyal people in his party. Frustrating to watch.
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Having a second referendum is not sitting on the fence.
 
BobbyManc said:
Hold on. Labour's position for the last election was not 'no decision'. It was unambiguously to Leave; they pledged to honour the result of the referendum. Moreover, that was a good election result for Labour. A big improvement on Miliband's performance, largest increase in a vote share since Attlee's government, and while having to contend with Brexit and a more hostile media than Miliband's Labour did.

You've literally offered no evidence that their fence sitting isn't working/going to work compared to their other options (the 2017 election is literally not evidence that a stance adopted only after 2017 is not working, and a prediction for an upcoming election is literally not evidence either), and now you're claiming what more do I need. That's the main problem. People making claims with nothing to back it up and dressing it up as fact.
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You forgot to mention they were also helped by the worst run GE campaign from a government in history. That won't happen again.

Still, can't wait to see what excuses are made when Labour fail to win another election. I'm sure the enemies from within and Israel will be blamed.
 
711 said:
Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.
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See this is why i say people just moan for the sake of moaning.

How can anyone remotely following proceedings not understand why they're delaying the VONC. That delay is a joint decision between the opposition parties for a specific purpose to get BoJo to extend first.

Perfectly clear simple position.
 
esmufc07 said:
You forgot to mention they were also helped by the worst run GE campaign from a government in history. That won't happen again.

Still, can't wait to see what excuses are made when Labour fail to win another election. I'm sure the enemies from within and Israel will be blamed.
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Haha funny israel, hilarious
 
F-Red said:
They don't really have a plan though, sitting on the fence and making no decision isn't a plan. Asking for a second vote isn't a plan. It's essentially putting a head in the sand and waiting for the storm to pass.
.
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Well we've made some progress. But I'll just repeat my point
Sweet Square said:
Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.
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A second referendum and staying neutral(Allowing Labour MP's to back Remain or Leave) is a plan, you again can disagree with it but to state ''they don't really have a plan though'' is just untrue and odd.


F-Red said:
In times like this, it's clear that people are after leadership. If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.
If that position was made as a leader in business, they wouldn't last very long.
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We are talking about a national referendum not running a local corner shop.
 
Redlambs said:
What's not to get?

They want him out, but they don't want him out. Not yet anyway, they want to wait so brexit is or isn't brexit so they can maybe or maybe not push for a GE.

Perfect sense.
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They want him out in the way that is most damaging for the Tories. What's wrong with that? They are playing their tactical advantage.
 
esmufc07 said:
They are remaining neutral, it absolutely is sitting on the fence.
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Agreeing to call a second referendum is the decision. People have already proved that they will not vote leave or remain along party lines (Labour or Conservative). So why are you so caught up on Labour not confirming what they will campaign for in a referendum which has not yet been enacted?

I think it makes perfect sense to run a second referendum. The country is split down the middle from the previous referendum and stuck in stasis. The detail has evolved from what was available 3 years ago. It's possibly the only fair and rational way to decide how to move forward.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Agreeing to call a second referendum is the decision. People have already proved that they will not vote leave or remain along party lines (Labour or Conservative). So why are you so caught up on Labour not confirming what they will campaign for in a referendum which has not yet been enacted?

I think it makes perfect sense to run a second referendum. The country is split down the middle from the previous referendum and stuck in stasis. The detail has evolved from what was available 3 years ago. It's possibly the only fair and rational way to decide how to move forward.
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Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.
 
Sweet Square said:
Because admitting Labour have a plan on Brexit would mean there's no excuse to not vote for them in the next general election. The constant moving of the goal posts by Remain supporters, first it was Labour don't support a second referendum, now its Labour won't campaign as a party for Remain and finally if Labour did say they would campaign for Remain, it would be well Labour aren't a real Remain party because they don't have revoke in their manifesto.

Basically certain people on the centre to centre left are depressingly trying to find any excuse to vote Lib Dem.
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There are a myriad of reasons why I'm, and a lot of others, are struggling to vote Labour anymore. You continue to simplify it though and be condescending to the very people who's votes you need.
 
esmufc07 said:
There are a myriad of reasons why I'm, and a lot of others, are struggling to vote Labour anymore. You continue to simplify it though and be condescending to the very people who's votes you need.
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Such as ?
 
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