Westminster Politics

[Don't Kill Bill]

All the years the North voted Labour. What did it ever get them? Managed decline, no future and and being talked down to by people from London. Pretty much the same as the Tory's.

Well done all, it looks like the party is truly broken beyond repair.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Only in brexit Britain can the tories do something as disastrous as Brexit and somehow come out smelling like roses. Feck me.

"What about covid? It derailed Brexit and just proved that we need to lock out the EU and China."

It might have been a few months back but the idiot that said this to me with a smug "I'm such a genius" look on their dumb face probably hasn't changed.

 

[Mart1974]

I don't think it matters who was in charge of Labour, they were always going to lose. There is still momentum for the Tories that I am not smart enough to understand, maybe brexit was the ultimate betrayal.

 

[Berbasbullet]

"What about covid? It derailed Brexit and just proved that we need to lock out the EU and China."

It might have been a few months back but the idiot that said this to me with a smug "I'm such a genius" look on their dumb face probably hasn't changed.

ah man, I am a massive fan of the over confidence of an idiot.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

ah man, I am a massive fan of the over confidence of an idiot.

For years they've probably thought "maybe I am a little wrong" but on social media they've been emboldened by their theories ("squirrels turn your pee pink and that's the fault of Corbyn") by other like minded fools and now they're at the point where they are confident enough to puff out their chests and vote Tory at the polling station - because the front cover of the Mail told them to.

 

[Balljy]

I think people underestimate the impact of Labour not being anti-Brexit in the medium term. I'm from a labour area and loads of ex-labour supporters round here that I have spoken to won't vote for them again. It feels like they didn't get the Brexit vote initially and now have lost the remainers due to leaving them behind.

Turnout will be interesting, if it's low those people may have ended up voting for no-one. I expected the Green's to take some of that vote, but it doesn't appear to have happened.

 

[Wolverine]

Boris is also quite popular. The Tories could have gone full Bolsanaro, Modi, Trump in their handling of covid though but I think even despite the death toll, generalised incompetence, scandals, corruption people still associate them with a generously perceived furlough scheme, vaccination program etc etc.

None of which excuses lack of strong opposition, either in PMQs or general messaging or clearly defined policy stances.

 

[TwoSheds]

I think people underestimate the impact of Labour not being anti-Brexit in the medium term. I'm from a labour area and loads of ex-labour supporters round here that I have spoken to won't vote for them again. It feels like they didn't get the Brexit vote initially and now have lost the remainers due to leaving them behind.

Turnout will be interesting, if it's low those people may have ended up voting for no-one. I expected the Green's to take some of that vote, but it doesn't appear to have happened.

I like the Greens but the problem with them is you have to wade through the hippie tie dye policies with all the buzz words like inclusivity to get to the ones that might really speak to ordinary people - tax the megacorporations, UBI, 4 day working week with a higher minimum wage etc etc. The problem is the cerebral policies don't sell and they haven't been good at pushing the ones that do sell since Natalie Bennett stepped down as leader.

 

[villain]

Labours shift from the party that speaks for towns like Hartlepool to one dominated by Londons upper middle class is pretty bizzare aswell.

But that's the new political world. Labour will maintain an iron grip on the London and Manchester mayoral elections (and of course the all important Twitter trending page) whilst the Conservatives consolidate seats like Redcar and Hartlepool.

What exactly is your understanding of the word ‘woke’
I didn’t mention anything about Labour.

 

[villain]

I agree completely.
I once worked in a call centre while studying. There was this lady about my age who worked there full time on £6.48 an hour (can't remember clearly). She voted Tory cause she felt Labour were wrong to tax the rich. I didn't even know how to argue with her and summed she was a lost cause.
Labour was fecked the day Scotland turned SNP.

Yep people are scared to ‘punish’ the rich because they too want to be rich, so they’d literally rather continue suffering in the present.
How can you account for ignorance on such a grandiose level? You can’t.

 

[Balljy]

I like the Greens but the problem with them is you have to wade through the hippie tie dye policies with all the buzz words like inclusivity to get to the ones that might really speak to ordinary people - tax the megacorporations, UBI, 4 day working week with a higher minimum wage etc etc. The problem is the cerebral policies don't sell and they haven't been good at pushing the ones that do sell since Natalie Bennett stepped down as leader.

Agreed about the Greens. I've been a supporter for a while and I think they're in an ideal position to be the main left of centre party as they've always put equality first which could pick them up a lot of votes. Especially with environmental concerns having broader support now.

They need to simplify their policies and aim for the Labour / and Lib Dem votes but haven't been good at getting the message across.

 

[Pexbo]

Is he running for Crufts?

 

[Smores]

Yep people are scared to ‘punish’ the rich because they too want to be rich, so they’d literally rather continue suffering in the present.
How can you account for ignorance on such a grandiose level? You can’t.

That's been the result of a turn away from collectivism and community messaging though. It's not a difficult argument, for people to become rich they'll need a strong well funded society so who would they rather pay for it, themselves or have those who already benefited from society pay for it?

 

[Zlatattack]

Labours shift from the party that speaks for towns like Hartlepool to one dominated by Londons upper middle class is pretty bizzare aswell.

But that's the new political world. Labour will maintain an iron grip on the London and Manchester mayoral elections (and of course the all important Twitter trending page) whilst the Conservatives consolidate seats like Redcar and Hartlepool.

What do people in Redcar and Hartlepool want that Labour isn't offering? Until Labour can answer that they're going to continue to lose votes.

 

[villain]

That's been the result of a turn away from collectivism and community messaging though. It's not a difficult argument, for people to become rich they'll need a strong well funded society so who would they rather pay for it, themselves or have those who already benefited from society pay for it?

I agree, but the problem is the electorate itself is too ignorant (read: dumb) that even if you communicated it clearly and effectively, all it would take is a few Daily Mail headlines to spin the narrative and they'll willingly run with it instead.

 

[F-Red]

I think people underestimate the impact of Labour not being anti-Brexit in the medium term. I'm from a labour area and loads of ex-labour supporters round here that I have spoken to won't vote for them again. It feels like they didn't get the Brexit vote initially and now have lost the remainers due to leaving them behind.

Turnout will be interesting, if it's low those people may have ended up voting for no-one. I expected the Green's to take some of that vote, but it doesn't appear to have happened.

This is it in a nut shell for Hartlepool, a strong Brexit vote in 2016 and had Labour on a remain front telling them this for a number of years. The conversion of Brexit voters to Labour is a tall ask in that constituency, certainly one that isn't going to take 5 months after Brexit.

 

[Zlatattack]

I keep seeing this but what message do you think people from towns like Hartlepool want to hear?

I agree completely.
I once worked in a call centre while studying. There was this lady about my age who worked there full time on £6.48 an hour (can't remember clearly). She voted Tory cause she felt Labour were wrong to tax the rich. I didn't even know how to argue with her and summed she was a lost cause.
Labour was fecked the day Scotland turned SNP.

This is a very English political trait. Cutting your nose to spite your face. I might not be rich yet, but i don't want higher taxes for the rich in case i day suddenly i am rich and then i'll be stung by those taxes. Also the order of priority in sympathy...

Ex armed forces > dogs > homeless > > cats > foreigners > foreigners who dare to come here

 

[DoubleDinhos]

the kidnapping of the word ‘woke’ from its origins is really one of the most bizarre things I’ve ever witnessed.

It seems to exist in the place that 'political correctness' used to do but whereas pc culture had the feeling of institutions telling you what views to hold, now it's as if people genuinely believe that skint students and people in their 20s on zero hours contract service jobs are now the most powerful and dangerous forces in British culture. I think part of it is people are terrified of the youth holding views they can't understand.

And it's almost always the Tories and the media who manufacture the 'woke' issues (critical race theory and trans rights get publicised almost only by Tory MPs) to stir up culture war stuff.

 

[villain]

It seems to exist in the place that 'political correctness' used to do but whereas pc culture had the feeling of institutions telling you what views to hold, now it's as if people genuinely believe that skint students and people in their 20s on zero hours contract service jobs are now the most powerful and dangerous forces in British culture. I think part of it is people are terrified of the youth holding views they can't understand.

And it's almost always the Tories and the media who manufacture the 'woke' issues (critical race theory and trans rights get publicised almost only by Tory MPs) to stir up culture war stuff.

This is exactly it, it's become a buzzword that people are instantly afraid of, 'woke policies' could genuinely mean something different to me, as it does to you, but it doesn't matter because once used the general public are fearful of it - even if they were to benefit from such policies in the first place, whatever they are.
They don't know what 'woke' is exactly, but they know they don't want it - and when I think about the origins of the word it just makes it all the more bizarre to me because we could really get in a rabbit hole and discuss the wider repercussions this has and what it says about the british public, but honestly what's the point?
The turkeys continue to vote for christmas and it's not going to get better any time soon.

 

[Pexbo]

I think people underestimate the impact of Labour not being anti-Brexit in the medium term. I'm from a labour area and loads of ex-labour supporters round here that I have spoken to won't vote for them again. It feels like they didn't get the Brexit vote initially and now have lost the remainers due to leaving them behind.

Turnout will be interesting, if it's low those people may have ended up voting for no-one. I expected the Green's to take some of that vote, but it doesn't appear to have happened.

I think people underestimate the impact of Brexit as a catalyst of breaking through tribalism and allowing older staunch Labour voters who have drifted to the right as their circumstances became more comfortable to vote for a party they detested with their entire being 30+ years ago.

Where a lot of these people hated the Tories because of Thatcher and the war on the Unions and the working classes, they now hate the EU and liberalism which they believe has failed them as they sit in their £300k house they bought for £18k and moan about a younger generation who have it easier than they do.

 

[Oldyella]

This is a very English political trait. Cutting your nose to spite your face. I might not be rich yet, but i don't want higher taxes for the rich in case i day suddenly i am rich and then i'll be stung by those taxes. Also the order of priority in sympathy...

Ex armed forces > dogs > homeless > > cats > foreigners > foreigners who dare to come here

I don't think it's just English. You can see similar in America where people will vote Republican for similar reasons.

 

[groovyalbert]

Labour after the 2019 election: "we need to win back the working class vote"

Labour's next move: elect a fecking London-centric, metropolitan knight of the realm to lead the party.

The same guy who came up with the oddest/most confused Brexit policy whilst in the shadow cabinet, the one issue that negatively impacted voters in 2019 after Corbyn.

Brexit has killed Labour because it forced them into a debate they've been desperately avoiding since Blair.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

 

[11101]

Labour don't represent the people they're supposed to represent anymore. People are starting to realise they were the ones managing over decades of decline in the Northern councils, and they've now been hijacked by champagne socialists who resent their core voter base. I know dozens of lifelong Labour voters who hate the way the party talks down to them. They always voted Labour because they looked after the industrial towns they lived in, not because they were friendly to immigration or wanted to get rid of the nuclear fleet.

I had hoped Kier Starmer would mark a change and provide some competition to Boris Johnson and the Tories but he's been a damp squib. Corbyn was an unelectable idiot, but at least you know something about him. Starmer has been little more than a mannequin in a suit so far.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

This is a very English political trait. Cutting your nose to spite your face. I might not be rich yet, but i don't want higher taxes for the rich in case i day suddenly i am rich and then i'll be stung by those taxes. Also the order of priority in sympathy...

Ex armed forces > dogs > homeless > > cats > foreigners > foreigners who dare to come here

It's the misconception that everyone who's rich got there by working hard, along with the "if you work hard enough you can be rich too" mantra.

The English do have a very peculiar admiration for 'high society'. I dunno whether it's being force fed a diet of BBC period dramas over the years that's clockwork orange'd everyone into a sense of that being our national identity and something to be enthralled by. I've never really understood it personally.

 

[Maticmaker]

All the years the North voted Labour. What did it ever get them? Managed decline, no future and and being talked down to by people from London. Pretty much the same as the Tory's.

Well done all, it looks like the party is truly broken beyond repair.

Spot on, Labour has had years to sort out places like Hartlepool and others in the 'red wall', it wasn't interested!

Labour don't represent the people they're supposed to represent anymore.

They don't even understand them let alone represent them, they never honed in on the reasons behind Brexit in these areas and for that they will be condemned for generations. Corbyn/Starmer take your pick neither has a clue, probably neither knows where Hartlepool is, even after consulting a map and using google!!

 

[groovyalbert]

Spot on, Labour has had years to sort out places like Hartlepool and others in the 'red wall', it wasn't interested!



They don't even understand them let alone represent them, they never honed in on the reasons behind Brexit in these areas and for that they will be condemned for generations. Corbyn/Starmer take your pick neither has a clue, probably neither knows where Hartlepool is, even after consulting a map and using google!!

Throw in Brown's campaign trail "bigot" comments 10 years ago and you've got the evidence of how the party really saw their red-wall supporters.

 

[Balljy]

I think people underestimate the impact of Brexit as a catalyst of breaking through tribalism and allowing older staunch Labour voters who have drifted to the right as their circumstances became more comfortable to vote for a party they detested with their entire being 30+ years ago.

Where a lot of these people hated the Tories because of Thatcher and the war on the Unions and the working classes, they now hate the EU and liberalism which they believe has failed them as they sit in their £300k house they bought for £18k and moan about a younger generation who have it easier than they do.

Whilst I agree that a proportion of people will have used Brexit as a means to move to the right and potentially stay there I don't think it explains everyone. As you know, there wasn't a party to actually really get behind during Brexit and that is approximately 49% of the population who were not represented by a political party.

There's bound to be a big labour supporter percentage of that who won't just forgive and forget something that will now dominate the next 30 years of their lives. I know it's completely ruled labour out for some people I know which is a pity as the more you split the central / left the more likely the Tories dominate. I definitely can't support a party who didn't completely oppose Brexit as it smacked of xenophobia and nationalism to me and not just for the tories.

 

[11101]

They don't even understand them let alone represent them, they never honed in on the reasons behind Brexit in these areas and for that they will be condemned for generations. Corbyn/Starmer take your pick neither has a clue, probably neither knows where Hartlepool is, even after consulting a map and using google!!

Who are Labour supposed to represent?

The working class, many of whom live in towns and cities around the country that have suffered massive declines over the years. They care about what jobs are available to them and what their local town centre looks like. They're not bothered about renewable energy, gender equality, what our aid budget is, or how diverse our society is. They definitely don't like being told they're idiots because they don't care about those things, and especially not when it's coming from some Oxbridge graduate pretending to be like them. I don't think Blair and Brown were ever any different but at least they said what their voters wanted to hear.

I also hear a lot more friends and family commenting that they've had Labour councils for decades and nothing ever improves. Nobody ever noticed that before.

 

[Maticmaker]

Throw in Brown's campaign trail "bigot" comments 10 years ago and you've got the evidence of how the party really saw their red-wall supporters.

I agree, those unguarded comments from Brown 'let the cat out' so to speak, but they didn't even learn from that, the 'snowball' continued to roll down the hill and Labour politician after politician continually dodged out of the way.

 

[groovyalbert]

I agree, those unguarded comments from Brown 'let the cat out' so to speak, but they didn't even learn from that, the 'snowball' continued to roll down the hill and Labour politician after politician continually dodged out of the way.

Which is why Brexit was such a home-run for the Tories.

It forced Labour to confront issues/debates they'd been desperate to avoid for decades - namely around immigration.

 

[DoubleDinhos]

There's an underlying assumption in a lot of these posts that the working-class is only white.

 

[Zlatattack]

Who are Labour supposed to represent?

The working class, many of whom live in towns and cities around the country that have suffered massive declines over the years. They care about what jobs are available to them and what their local town centre looks like. They're not bothered about renewable energy, gender equality, what our aid budget is, or how diverse our society is. They definitely don't like being told they're idiots because they don't care about those things, and especially not when it's coming from some Oxbridge graduate pretending to be like them. I don't think Blair and Brown were ever any different but at least they said what their voters wanted to hear.

I also hear a lot more friends and family commenting that they've had Labour councils for decades and nothing ever improves. Nobody ever noticed that before.

To be fair nobody likes being told the truth.

The sad truth is though, these people don't see what relevance these things have to them. They don't see that renewable energy will create jobs for them that have been missing since the mines shut. Why would they if we buy all our solar panels from abroad? They don't see the gender equality will mean their wives, girlfriends, mothers, sisters, will get paid the same as men who do the same job. Many of them don't have access to those jobs anyway.

I'm right with them on the aid budget. Most aid is just bribes to foreign governments. As for diversity - there's no cure for engrained bigotry. If i was to walk through some of those towns, those people would probably think i'm stealing their jobs, not the billionaires who outsourced them.

 

[Zlatattack]

There's an underlying assumption in a lot of these posts that the working-class is only white.

The Labour party also assumes that us asians will vote for it because the Tories hate us more.

 

[groovyalbert]

There's an underlying assumption in a lot of these posts that the working-class is only white.

I think in the red-wall areas, the vast majority are. According to the 2011 census, 98% of the Borough of Hartlepool identified as white.

But you're right to point out the assumption, it would be interesting to see the voting patterns of non-white voters in these areas, and whether they follow the trends of non-white communities in major cities/the overall level of engagement.

 

[Maticmaker]

Who are Labour supposed to represent?

The working class, many of whom live in towns and cities around the country that have suffered massive declines over the years. They care about what jobs are available to them and what their local town centre looks like. They're not bothered about renewable energy, gender equality, what our aid budget is, or how diverse our society is. They definitely don't like being told they're idiots because they don't care about those things, and especially not when it's coming from some Oxbridge graduate pretending to be like them. I don't think Blair and Brown were ever any different but at least they said what their voters wanted to hear.

I also hear a lot more friends and family commenting that they've had Labour councils for decades and nothing ever improves. Nobody ever noticed that before.

Spot on again!
WC in 'red wall' areas for years had been loyal to Labour, quite often when in truth they didn't always like/or much understand what they were hearing but they held on believing in Labour. However the dam broke with Brown's comments the 'Emperors new clothes' revealed and they realised they had be taken for granted; talked down to; had their aspirations dismissed, for yonks!
People started to look around at what had happened to their areas, nothing really all through years of Labour rule, yet even when Labour was in power Tory areas still seemed to flourish... the penny dropped, a mass flight to UKIP, then to Brexit, finally in desperation, throw in with the Tories.
If Boris does managed to do something, anything almost, on his 'leveling up' promise's then Labour is dead in the water in these areas.

 

[fergieisold]

Who are Labour supposed to represent?

The working class, many of whom live in towns and cities around the country that have suffered massive declines over the years. They care about what jobs are available to them and what their local town centre looks like. They're not bothered about renewable energy, gender equality, what our aid budget is, or how diverse our society is. They definitely don't like being told they're idiots because they don't care about those things, and especially not when it's coming from some Oxbridge graduate pretending to be like them. I don't think Blair and Brown were ever any different but at least they said what their voters wanted to hear.

I also hear a lot more friends and family commenting that they've had Labour councils for decades and nothing ever improves. Nobody ever noticed that before.

This is the best summary of the situation.

 

[11101]

There's an underlying assumption in a lot of these posts that the working-class is only white.

It mostly is. At the last census the UK was 87% white. When you consider the three biggest cities, London, Birmingham and Manchester, are all under 60% white, it gives you an idea of how high the percentage must be in the rest of the country.

 

[Ady87]

She probably hand a wank.
I can't see where Labour go from here. Any direction it takes, it will bleed votes and there's no guarantee it will gain them elsewhere.
Basically I think a sizeable % of the brexit former Labour voters will never vote Labour (at least not for a generation), no matter Labour's message.
Identity is now the driving force in British politics and economic arguments are by the by.
Any attempt to move towards a nationalist message from Labour and they will be slaughtered down south. They are fecked.

This is exactly it. I've said this word for word today already.

I keep hearing people talk about economic policy like it has absolutely any sway with the public these days at all. It really doesn't. We will not see a socially conservative Labour leader, nor do I want one, thus, Labour are over for a generation. The best they can hope for is not fading in to complete obscurity in the mean time. Being politically incorrect is at odds with the kind of policies the majority of Labour voters might want.

I saw a clip recently of a reporter asking people in the street if they knew about the Boris/Tory Donor flat 'scandal' and nobody had a clue what he was talking about. Interestingly, they were able to say they don't know what Starmer stands for, but painful because they looked unlikely to be able to describe what any politician anywhere stands for!

 

[Kentonio]

Labour don't represent the people they're supposed to represent anymore. People are starting to realise they were the ones managing over decades of decline in the Northern councils, and they've now been hijacked by champagne socialists who resent their core voter base. I know dozens of lifelong Labour voters who hate the way the party talks down to them. They always voted Labour because they looked after the industrial towns they lived in, not because they were friendly to immigration or wanted to get rid of the nuclear fleet.

So instead they're now voting for the Tories who are famous for their down to heart, compassionate approach to the north, and speaking to working class people as peers.