F1 2021 Season

[hellhunter]

Appeal to authority is always a mediocre argument in almost any debate. However, it fails miserably when the ultimate authority (the FIA) ruled Hamilton predominantly at fault.

“The stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence,” the stewards said.
“Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered Turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.
“Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside.
“When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.
Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.”

FIA have a lot more camera angles, data, and telemetry than we do. Your appeal to authority has failed.

Well you (not you in particular) can't have it both ways. Since sunday, people have been arguing that Hamilton is to blame because some folks at Sky and elsewhere said so. Now that a lot of first hand experts say otherwise, the opinion of experts is worthless.

Same goes for the FIA ruling. People screaming bloody murder because the penalty was too soft but at the same time giving the FIA ruling all the weight needed to support their argument.

You either listen to experts and the FIA or you don't, but not whenever it suits your agenda.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Jolyon Palmer's analysis of the incident. Worth a watch.

 

[Infordin]

Well you (not you in particular) can't have it both ways. Since sunday, people have been arguing that Hamilton is to blame because some folks at Sky and elsewhere said so. Now that a lot of first hand experts say otherwise, the opinion of experts is worthless.

Same goes for the FIA ruling. People screaming bloody murder because the penalty was too soft but at the same time giving the FIA ruling all the weight needed to support their argument.

You either listen to experts and the FIA or you don't, but not whenever it suits your agenda.

I personally don't care too much about expert analysis because no matter how much authority someone has, they can still be wrong. The only reason why I brought up the FIA verdict is because the guy I was quoting was using appeal to authority.

The racing rules and logic dictates that Hamilton was at fault.

 

[Adam-Utd]

A lot of Hamilton fans on here really need to learn the rules of racing.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.

Therefore, what Verstappen did to Hamilton at Imola and Spain was perfectly legitimate.

Now:

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

This implies that the Silverstone collision would be Hamilton's fault even if Verstappen fully closed the door.

However, Verstappen did not close the door and left Hamilton room:

Slam dunk case, Hamilton's fault.

This is getting really boring now, stop talking rubbish please.

Hamilton had WAY more than the freeze frame you decided to use as your 'evidence', it's been provided in the thread before that you conveniently ignore.

That moment you've shown is where Hamilton backs out of the throttle thinking to himself "I might not make it safely around the corner, better back out". Max keeps his foot in as he has the wider entry and can make the corner easier. They collide.

These technical drawings are just to demonstrate how things should be done, but you clearly ignore the context that he was alongside him after a long straight to draft him.

Nobody in their right minds think it was anything but a racing incident. If you're a Max/Red Bull fan boy then of course you're going to be bias.

 

[Infordin]

That moment you've shown is where Hamilton backs out of the throttle thinking to himself "I might not make it safely around the corner, better back out". Max keeps his foot in as he has the wider entry and can make the corner easier. They collide.

The reason why Hamilton had to back out is because he himself took far too much speed into Copse. That is his fault. The accident was a direct result of Hamilton overestimating and misjudging how much speed he could take into Copse corner. Verstappen left him room but Hamilton understeered anyway. That is Hamilton's fault.

Nobody in their right minds think it was anything but a racing incident. If you're a Max/Red Bull fan boy then of course you're going to be bias.

Apart from the stewards. They have more data than anyone else (plus telemetry) and they gave Hamilton a penalty. Of course, I don't want to use "appeal to authority" as an argument, so I make up my own mind.

 

[Abizzz]

I personally don't care too much about expert analysis because no matter how much authority someone has, they can still be wrong. The only reason why I brought up the FIA verdict is because the guy I was quoting was using appeal to authority.

The racing rules and logic dictates that Hamilton was at fault.

The same is true for little authority.

The second sentence of this post is silly nonsense, Hamilton had his position and Max lost his gamble that Hamilton would give it up, end of story. It's a move Max has done hundreds of times in his career (putting others in the position to yield or crash) and it's simply a sign of his maturity to do so in a situation that results in a 51G accident. Max isn't a small boy no more that everyone has to drive around.

And the RB / Max reaction afterwards just reinforces the perception that they think everything should be in perfect order for him, including a multiple world champion rolling over so he doesn't have to fight for it.

 

[Adam-Utd]

The reason why Hamilton had to back out is because he himself took far too much speed into Copse. That is his fault. The accident was a direct result of Hamilton overestimating and misjudging how much speed he could take into Copse corner. Verstappen left him room but Hamilton understeered anyway. That is Hamilton's fault.


Apart from the stewards. They have more data than anyone else (plus telemetry) and they gave Hamilton a penalty. Of course, I don't want to use "appeal to authority" as an argument, so I make up my own mind.

There is no such thing as taking too much speed into Copse. Many overtakes have been made there in the past. 2 More were made in the same race by Hamilton alone.

The fact is Max should have given up and accepted he'd lost the position, instead he tried to hang on for dear life and took a risk by cutting across Hamilton in a tight corner.

The stewards only gave him a penalty because of Red Bull crying. The same ones that gave Norris a penalty in Austria

Ironic that above you say "I don't listen to expert analysis or anybody with authority as the could be wrong" well this is a perfect point. Micheal Massi is throwing out penalties left right and centre for very little.

Nobody is even saying Hamilton is faultless, but Max is just as much to blame. This tirade to try and blame Hamilton and Hamilton alone shows you have no experience at racing.

So many ex racers say themselves it's a racing incident but you know better

 

[Infordin]

There is no such thing as taking too much speed into Copse. Many overtakes have been made there in the past. 2 More were made in the same race by Hamilton alone.

The fact is Max should have given up and accepted he'd lost the position, instead he tried to hang on for dear life and took a risk by cutting across Hamilton in a tight corner.

The stewards only gave him a penalty because of Red Bull crying. The same ones that gave Norris a penalty in Austria

Ironic that above you say "I don't listen to expert analysis or anybody with authority as the could be wrong" well this is a perfect point. Micheal Massi is throwing out penalties left right and centre for very little.

Nobody is even saying Hamilton is faultless, but Max is just as much to blame. This tirade to try and blame Hamilton and Hamilton alone shows you have no experience at racing.

So many ex racers say themselves it's a racing incident but you know better

There's also lots of ex racers who lay the blame solely on Hamilton, but not a single one who has blamed Verstappen solely. The fact that you are actually trying to even hint that Verstappen was at fault for the crash shows how clueless you are.

Ricciardo, Doornbos, Ralf Schumacher, Glock, Button, Webber, Coulthard just to name a few people who solely blamed Hamilton. I haven't heard a single person lay the blame solely on Verstappen.

Now show me that you actually know how to debate without petty insults and appeal to authority.

Verstappen didn't cut across Hamilton. He was turning into the corner obviously. He's not going to run off the road just to let Hamilton by. We are talking about Verstappen here, not Bottas.

Verstappen left the space and Hamilton understeered into him.

 

[Infordin]

It's a move Max has done hundreds of times in his career (putting others in the position to yield or crash)

Then why is it that Hamilton has collected 8 penalties for his driving since the last time Verstappen has collected a penalty?

Please explain why the "clean" Lewis Hamilton has been so prone to getting penalties in recent years over the "dirty" Verstappen?

Or maybe the idea that Verstappen is a dirty driver is a myth pushed by delusional Hamilton fans?

 

[V.O.]

This thread has been great fun since the race, but it really needs you guys to start referring to each other as the 'Lewis brigade' and the 'Max brigade' to ascend to Messi vs Ronaldo levels.

I'll admit that dredging up posts from a Max Verstappen fanboy subreddit with 3k members is a top notch effort, though.

 

[Infordin]

I'll admit that dredging up posts from a Max Verstappen fanboy subreddit with 3k members is a top notch effort, though.

Don't judge the source, judge the content.

Now let me ask you, do you see any mistakes or errors made in that person's analysis? I don't see it. Maybe you can help me point it out?

 

[Kanu]

Then why is it that Hamilton has collected 8 penalties for his driving since the last time Verstappen has collected a penalty?

Please explain why the "clean" Lewis Hamilton has been so prone to getting penalties in recent years over the "dirty" Verstappen?

Or maybe the idea that Verstappen is a dirty driver is a myth pushed by delusional Hamilton fans?

People here are so biased it's crazy. 3rd time in 2 years Lewis did this. Twice with Albon and now Max. People still think Max is like early 2018 over here. He's been incredibly clean since then.

I would say this one could be a racing incident. Both drivers are to blame imo. (Max took too much risk assuming Lewis would back off and Lewis should've backed off)

 

[Abizzz]

Then why is it that Hamilton has collected 8 penalties for his driving since the last time Verstappen has collected a penalty?

Please explain why the "clean" Lewis Hamilton has been so prone to getting penalties in recent years over the "dirty" Verstappen?

Or maybe the idea that Verstappen is a dirty driver is a myth pushed by delusional Hamilton fans?

I'm not even a Hamilton fan ( I admire his achievements but that's something different). I'm just a spectator calling it as I see it and I see Max going left right left, inside outside inside, every 2nd lap of every race I watch.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Don't judge the source, judge the content.

Now let me ask you, do you see any mistakes or errors made in that person's analysis? I don't see it. Maybe you can help me point it out?

Lets be honest, the last 3 years Verstappen has spent 90% of the time driving by himself in 3rd position. Not had many chances to get involved in racing incidents has he?

Now that he's got a car worthy of challenging they'll start adding up again. He's had 3/4 this season alone that have been pretty dodgy.

 

[dinostar77]

This thread has been great fun since the race, but it really needs you guys to start referring to each other as the 'Lewis brigade' and the 'Max brigade' to ascend to Messi vs Ronaldo levels.

I'll admit that dredging up posts from a Max Verstappen fanboy subreddit with 3k members is a top notch effort, though.

If this thread ends up going down the messi v ronaldo route but with lewis and max then im out of this thread permanently and will create a new f1 thread without this tiresome rubbish.

Racing incident as all the f1 drivers and ex-f1 drivers have said. Who also have forgotten more about F1 than anyone on this thread will ever know.

Onto Hungary, monaco without the streets. Also know as the 2nd or 3rd most boring race on the calendar. Monaco is 1st, spain and hungary and fight for 2nd and 3rd. Both snozzefests.

 

[F-Red]

Don't judge the source, judge the content.

Now let me ask you, do you see any mistakes or errors made in that person's analysis? I don't see it. Maybe you can help me point it out?

It's not really analysis, it's simply calling out infringement penalties. The debate most are trying to have is about race craft. Put it simply, Max is a bin it or win it kinda driver. That kind of strategy will work majority of time, and then there's other times where it hasn't, like Sunday. The stewards thought it was worthy of a penalty for Hamilton, he served it. End of discussion.

I still can't believe we're 2 days after the race and there's still an endless debate on who is right and who is wrong, it's as bad as the Brexit threads, and it isn't going to reverse either the stewards decision or the race outcome either.

I wonder if the shit posting on this topic can keep up until Hungary in 10 days time?

 

[RoadTrip]

There is no point attempting to engage @Infordin. Why the F are people still biting?

 

[Infordin]

Lets be honest, the last 3 years Verstappen has spent 90% of the time driving by himself in 3rd position. Not had many chances to get involved in racing incidents has he?

Hahaha, the lack of self-awareness in this reply is astounding.

Hamilton had the clear best car in both 2019 and 2020, and was driving in the lead most of the time, and yet it’s Verstappen who hasn’t been racing enough?

Verstappen in 2019 alone probably did more racing than Hamilton in 2019 and 2020 combined.

 

[Infordin]

I'm not even a Hamilton fan ( I admire his achievements but that's something different). I'm just a spectator calling it as I see it and I see Max going left right left, inside outside inside, every 2nd lap of every race I watch.

And yet almost never involved in collisions that are his fault. Amazing, are you sure that your own bias is not clouding your judgement?

 

[Abizzz]

And yet almost never involved in collisions that are his fault. Amazing, are you sure that your own bias is not clouding your judgement?

How could any reasonable person ever be sure of that!?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Appeal to authority is always a mediocre argument in almost any debate. However, it fails miserably when the ultimate authority (the FIA) ruled Hamilton predominantly at fault.

“The stewards reviewed video and telemetry evidence,” the stewards said.
“Cars 33 [Verstappen] and 44 [Hamilton] entered Turn 9 with Car 33 in the lead and Car 44 slightly behind and on the inside.
“Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside.
“When Car 33 turned into the corner, Car 44 did not avoid contact and the left front of Car 44 contacted the right rear of Car 33.
Car 44 is judged predominantly at fault.”

FIA have a lot more camera angles, data, and telemetry than we do. Your appeal to authority has failed.

Yes, the key word being "predominantly". So not a 50/50 more like 60/40 or 70/30.

I imagine in a football game you always think the referee is correct, yes? Your argument of "ultimate authority" always being correct is ridiculous.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Then why is it that Hamilton has collected 8 penalties for his driving since the last time Verstappen has collected a penalty?

Please explain why the "clean" Lewis Hamilton has been so prone to getting penalties in recent years over the "dirty" Verstappen?

Or maybe the idea that Verstappen is a dirty driver is a myth pushed by delusional Hamilton fans?

Your arguments are getting more desperate now. Stop cherry picking penalty points data.

Even in your link, 2 of the penalties are recognised as being the teams fault. Both your source and it's content are questionable.

The long term penalty point stats are in the link below.

Max has had 23 points since 2015 but Hamilton only 15.

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I'll admit that dredging up posts from a Max Verstappen fanboy subreddit with 3k members is a top notch effort, though.

It is a new low.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

A lot of Hamilton fans on here really need to learn the rules of racing.

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.

Therefore, what Verstappen did to Hamilton at Imola and Spain was perfectly legitimate.

Now:

In this case, the attacker has only their front wing alongside the defender’s rear wheel. The defender has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the attacker.

This implies that the Silverstone collision would be Hamilton's fault even if Verstappen fully closed the door.

However, Verstappen did not close the door and left Hamilton room:

Slam dunk case, Hamilton's fault.

Terrible case.

What you fail to understand is that one driver must back off before it gets that far. In Spain for example, Hamilton backed out which is why there was no crash, as admitted by Horner himself.

 

[Infordin]

Max has had 23 points since 2015 but Hamilton only 15.

https://f1statblog.co.uk/f1-penalty-points/

Imagine counting incidents where Verstappen was 17 years old absolutely shameless

There’s footage of a 12 year old Verstappen karting. I’m sure that you can find questionable driving there too!



Come on, let’s see you try!

 

[Infordin]

I imagine in a football game you always think the referee is correct, yes? Your argument of "ultimate authority" always being correct is ridiculous.

Never said this.

You were the one who was keeping track of drivers who said racing incident as if that means anything. I merely pointed out that those who have the most data disagreed.

I normally never defer to argument from authority.

 

[Infordin]

What you fail to understand is that one driver must back off before it gets that far. In Spain for example, Hamilton backed out which is why there was no crash, as admitted by Horner himself.

Horner also said that Hamilton’s move at Copse was dangerous and he is 100% at fault. Do you believe him there too?

Verstappen was ahead on corner exit in Spain. By the letter of the law, had the right to squeeze Hamilton out.

Anyway, I find it quite amusing that the Hamilton fans who are trying to defend him keep bringing up old races as if they are in any way relevant.

 

[Cheimoon]

This is getting really tedious. Does any of you really think you're going to get out of this discussion? All the possible viewpoints have now been explained, so how about you just agree that you hate each other's viewpoints, and agree to disagree for the rest?

Also, the entire forum would be better off if opinions weren't being derided left right and centre as being fueled by fandom. It adds nothing to the discussion and is often inflammatory.

Christ this thread has been a pain since that crash. (Some better posts and occasional grown-up conversation notwithstanding.)

 

[elmo]

Just set the trolls on ignore.

Pointless trying to explain to them anything when they're convinced that Max can do no wrong.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Imagine counting incidents where Verstappen was 17 years old absolutely shameless

There’s footage of a 12 year old Verstappen karting. I’m sure that you can find questionable driving there too!



Come on, let’s see you try!

Strange post considering he has been a professional F1 driver since 2015. Do the rules not apply to him? Maybe for you, no.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Horner also said that Hamilton’s move at Copse was dangerous and he is 100% at fault. Do you believe him there too?

Verstappen was ahead on corner exit in Spain. By the letter of the law, had the right to squeeze Hamilton out.

Anyway, I find it quite amusing that the Hamilton fans who are trying to defend him keep bringing up old races as if they are in any way relevant.

Horner is on the same team as Max. It is obvious that his opinions will be formed to defend Max. Yet even Horner accepted that Lewis had to back out in Spain. Just like Max could've backed out in Silverstone. Which is why the word "predominantly" was used on the FIA penalty document. Both drivers contributed to that accident.

You posted about the "old" races, if May 2021 is even classed as "old", that is what I was responding to. You are getting desperate now trying to deflect.

Because you are so blinded and partisan in your support of Max you brand anyone who disagrees a Hamilton fan. Silly really.

Anyway my key point is in bold. No point going around in circles.

I will end the tedium here.

 

[Infordin]

Strange post considering he has been a professional F1 driver since 2015. Do the rules not apply to him? Maybe for you, no.

Hamilton was 26 years old in the video below. This is just his crashes with Massa alone that year, it does not include the collisions he had with Webber, Button, Kobayashi, Di Resta and Maldonado.


I see over a race ban worth of penalty points in this season alone. Thankfully for Hamilton, penalty points weren’t a thing back then, because if they were, he would have collected more in a single season than Verstappen has ever.

Hamilton is lucky that penalty points only introduced in 2014, when he matured into a proper racing driver. Verstappen did not have that luxury. He did his learning and growing with the penalty points system in place.

If you don’t see the flaw in counting penalty points collected by Verstappen when he was 17 years old, you are either incredibly dumb or horribly biased. I don’t think you are dumb, which means that the only explanation is blinding incurable bias.

 

[Infordin]

Horner is on the same team as Max. It is obvious that his opinions will be formed to defend Max. Yet even Horner accepted that Lewis had to back out in Spain.

If Hamilton was taken out in Spain, Verstappen would not be at fault because he was ahead at the point where Hamilton had to make his evasive manoeuvre.

Skip to 3:29 of this video



Massa is down the inside of Vandoorne, who turns in and hits Massa. Vandoorne is out of the race. Massa does not receive any kind of penalty because he’s ahead on corner exit.

If Hamilton hit Verstappen’s sidepod in Spain and broke his suspension, Verstappen would not have received any kind of penalty because he was ahead on corner exit.

 

[Dargonk]

This thread went about as expected. For me it's a racing incident as a result of both drivers pushing the limits. In those situations sometimes things go slightly wrong and crashes happen.

It's really sad to see all the racist abuse as a result, and how RB have handled this whole thing.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

There is no point attempting to engage @Infordin. Why the F are people still biting?

Agreed !!!

 

[Infordin]

In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum.

I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.

SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.

 

[Abizzz]

In times like these you can really tell that Redcafe is a British forum.

I am being painted as the villain for defending Verstappen for an incident where the vast majority of people outside the UK consider him the innocent party.

SkyF1 is some brainwashing machine.

For the record I'm neither British nor in the UK. Everyone I talked to about this offline (admittedly only 2 people) thought it was a 50/50. But I'm sure you'd find a reason to think they are biased.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

I am British and a Lewis fan and I also said he was 60/40 to blame.
Many ex drivers and current drivers said racing incident, that's good enough for me.
For me its done, debating has been done to death.
On to the next race and no doubt more drama.
This tread is going down a route I did not want it too.
I have seen a read some pretty nasty comments about Lewis, predictable from mostly RB fans, monkey emoji's, pictures, comments, it is sickening that it happens, but it does, thankfully none on here

 

[Infordin]

For the record I'm neither British nor in the UK. Everyone I talked to about this offline (admittedly only 2 people) thought it was a 50/50. But I'm sure you'd find a reason to think they are biased.

Go to YouTube, and read the top comments on SkyF1 videos covering the race, and compare them to the top comments on the official Formula 1 channel. Night and day difference. Brits predominantly think that justice was served when Hamilton crashed out Verstappen. Non-Brits think that Hamilton was at fault and the penalty.

I am not suggesting that YouTube comments have any wisdom. What they do however tell us is which view is more popular.

 

[Infordin]

For me its done

Of course it’s done for you, because you are a Lewis fan. Easy to move on when your favourite driver benefits massively. Not so easy to move on when you are a Verstappen fan. Hamilton takes Verstappen out of the race AND takes 25 points out of him.

Hamilton fans moaned for weeks after Spa 2014 and all sorts of cheating accusations were thrown at Rosberg. You can expect similar treatment towards Hamilton in the next few weeks. Rosberg was also booed for the rest of the season. I wouldn’t be surprised if Hamilton gets booed hard, especially when we get to the Belgium-Netherlands-Italy triple header.