With Ole's luck, watch Man City have an injury crisis and end up 3rd this season.
Minimum Bar for Continuity in Ole's Third Full Season
- Thread starter Raveneye
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
8 to 10 more points and a continuation of the good things I saw the last couple of seasons. These are subjective so maybe not for this thread. For the concrete, 8 to 10 more points
Does ole have good luck or bad luck
I think putting a barometer like winning X or getting X far in a cup is quite unfair as sometimes you have little control (what if we get an insane UCL group stage draw or draw Munich in the last 16? Or draw a big side in a cup?)
I think what @OleBoiii said is fair. If you have to put a minimum barometer then securing champions league football is probably about right, but also just because he has secured champions league football it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t deserve to go.
I think what @OleBoiii said is fair. If you have to put a minimum barometer then securing champions league football is probably about right, but also just because he has secured champions league football it doesn’t mean he wouldn’t deserve to go.
Sure, but it can still happen. That's my point.
What if City wins the league next year with 81 points(same as Leicester 5 years ago) and we finish 2nd with 79 points. Does that mean that Ole must be sacked? This is why setting these minimum demands is so hard. Points don't tell the full story. The only thing that matters is to do better than your opponents.
Do you think it's good luck or bad luck that the other top 4 contenders get multiple injuries to their top players?
Well I just read that City are looking to sell Jesus and Silva this summer, or at least one of them will leave so it could be a very interesting seasonI actually can't believe people would be ok with us just qualifying for the CL and nothing else. Unbelievable really. Feels like getting the low expectations in early so it's easier to defend him if we do actually underachieve like that.
80+ points
League cup winners and not making it past the QF in the FA Cup or semi-final in the League Cup and final in the FA Cup
Proud performance in the QF of the CL.
League cup winners and not making it past the QF in the FA Cup or semi-final in the League Cup and final in the FA Cup
Proud performance in the QF of the CL.
Would be interested to know what Oles own targets for the season are, youd assume the clubs target will always be 4th. I just hope if the title looks possible he talks like a manager whos serious about winning the league this time and not just hapy to be involved
If you’re referring to my post or Ole’s that’s not what either of us are saying.
I'd agree with this.
Having a better season than Man City and Liverpool.
You're setting a minimum barometer by which it's potentially acceptable for us to keep Ole. I'm saying it's crazy for the minimum bar to be CL qualification.
It's the min bar. As long as that's cleared then other considerations come in to play.
Pretty much this.
There’s zero excuse for not putting together a genuine title challenge this season. And that means being in the race until right at the end, not 15+ points behind but banging on about being in second.
It's a really crappy min bar, though. Expectations should be much higher.
My expectations are higher. It's not the 'what do you think this team should be capable of' thread though.
Why is Ole the only manager we've ever had, or that i have ever heard of, that has always had this "have to win this or that to be allowed to stay" hanging over him?
It is just because he isn't a well known or hipster manager. Only that. I have said before, and i stand by it, had we hired Poch, and he had done 100% the same things as Ole, and had exactly the same results in every game, people would have been happy. Even if Poch won feck all. It's just because of Ole's name and CV - even if Poch's CV isn't all that either.
He is doing well, building a nice squad, the academy is looking nice. I am happy at the moment.
I'm happy if we're putting up a fight in the competitions we're in, the squad keeps improving, and some youngers are given a chance and does well.
Winning something is a good bonus.
Silverware. I'll make an exception if he makes a good CL run and loses the league on the last day.
This. Also a trophy would be great.
Yes I said that’s a minimum bar but I also said if that’s all we did it doesn’t mean Ole doesn’t deserve to go.
It’s a really hard conversation to have because context is key. Based on your criteria you set what if we finish second on 79, lose a domestic cup final, and go out of the last 16 in a hard fought game against PSG or Munich? Would he deserve to go then? I really don’t know.
I think it’s hard to set expectations so precisely, however failing to qualify for the champions league is absolutely a sackable offence.Why do we always focus on the bare minimum? The point is to achieve greatness, not just about do enough and tick enough boxes for your current manager to 'earn' another year.
The goal should always be to set out to win all the trophies played in. However, that's not entirely possible, so if he doesn't do that, here's what I'd accept as long as the team is playing well and enjoyable to watch. If the football turns shit and he's still not close to winning, I'd consider looking at a change.
Proper go at a title challenge. Not conceding that it's over in February, in a fight right to the end.
Latter stages of the Champions League - at least past the first knock out round. After that it's the luck of the draw, I don't think that there's too many teams in Europe this team can't beat if they show up with the right attitude.
And go out to win either the FA cup or League cup, these players need to get the taste of winning.
Proper go at a title challenge. Not conceding that it's over in February, in a fight right to the end.
Latter stages of the Champions League - at least past the first knock out round. After that it's the luck of the draw, I don't think that there's too many teams in Europe this team can't beat if they show up with the right attitude.
And go out to win either the FA cup or League cup, these players need to get the taste of winning.
Like @Berbasbullet said: you're missing the point.
Football is crazy. There are so many variables at play. Even setting "CL football" as a bare minimum could in some scenarios be a bit harsh. Consider the following outcome:
1. Early on we get several long-term injuries to our best players in multiple positions whereas our rivals are largely spared.
2. We play better football than least season and finish 5th with 75 points, only 10 points behind the 1st place. We also win both domestic cups and reach the CL final.
In this scenario we have improved in every possible metric apart from league position, but we've still failed to get CL football. Not only that, but we possibly did it with a weaker team(considering the injuries).
Would you want Ole out even then?
Yes, either 2/3 of those would be a good season for me and I’d be happy for Ole to continue.
Of course I want it all but I need to manage my expectations a bit.
Well yes, though I'd probably revise my original post to "mount a title challenge" instead of "80+ points". I thought it was obvious from what I said but some people are being pedantic about it, but there you go. Your above scenario is again being quite pedantic, it's basically right on the line of my criteria without quite being there and a very, very, specific circumstance, much different to "securing CL football", like you said before.Yes I said that’s a minimum bar but I also said if that’s all we did it doesn’t mean Ole doesn’t deserve to go.
It’s a really hard conversation to have because context is key. Based on your criteria you set what if we finish second on 79, lose a domestic cup final, and go out of the last 16 in a hard fought game against PSG or Munich? Would he deserve to go then? I really don’t know.
Put it another way, the absolute minimum that should be expected from any manager, at any club in order to not get sacked is progress. If we simply "secure CL qualification" then that is not progress, it's the exact same as we've done for the last two years.
1st and a cup win
We finished 2nd and got to a final and a semi last season....add Sancho and Varane and we should finish the job off - even more so if we keep Pogba,
Anything less and he should be out, and I'm sure he knows that himself and uses it as a motivator. Success is the minimum from now on
We finished 2nd and got to a final and a semi last season....add Sancho and Varane and we should finish the job off - even more so if we keep Pogba,
Anything less and he should be out, and I'm sure he knows that himself and uses it as a motivator. Success is the minimum from now on
Top 2 with a title challenge for most of the season
Top 4 with fa cup final appearance/league cup win/CL semi appearance.
I also want to see improvement on defending set pieces. Absolutely no reason we don't improve here other than lack of effort from the coaching staff. I would also like to see someone more seasoned than Carrick/McKenna brought in if we struggle during the season
Top 4 with fa cup final appearance/league cup win/CL semi appearance.
I also want to see improvement on defending set pieces. Absolutely no reason we don't improve here other than lack of effort from the coaching staff. I would also like to see someone more seasoned than Carrick/McKenna brought in if we struggle during the season
I'm not missing the point, you're just trying to hammer home a dumb one.
If your boss gave you minimum expectations in order to keep your job would you turn around to him and go "ah come on, that's not fair, what happens if I get hit by a bus and end up in hospital? Oh sure, it's not likely to happen because it's a freak scenario, but it could!"?
He already did that last season?
I have a low bar as I don't believe we have a divine right to anything. I would be happy if got top 4, became more dominant at Old Trafford, got to a couple of finals and destroyed a few more teams during the season. I don't want to be struggling against the likes of Brentford, Brighton, Palace, Watford etc. this season. We should be putting teams like that away. I want to see more 6-1, 9-0 thrashings and for Ole/the team to set a few more records along the way.
That would be a more complete assessment of progress rather than lucking out in a cup competition.
Well, it's not that he MUST be sacked in that case - but that would be an absolutely massive disappointment, a monumental chance wasted. I'd want him to go, unless it was down to a massive injury crisis, because after signing Sancho and Varane I'd expect a much more significant improvement than that.
I think doing better than your opponents doesn't tell the full story either. In the 21st century Premier League, at least one team always reaches 80+ points. If your team can't do that after three years and significant investment, that's damning and it indicates a certain limit - even if two or three rivals have poor seasons, you still won't win the league because there's always at least one team that is capable of getting that 80+.
On the other hand, imagine a different hypothetical scenario where we get 90 points but Liverpool, City, and Chelsea all have amazing seasons and go 90+ so we finish 4th. I'd be happy to continue with Ole then because in that case we do see that he is capable of creating a consistent, strong team, a side that in pretty much any other season would have won the league.
Yes because an injury crisis or a tough cup draw = getting hit by a bus.
That’s exactly why I’m saying it’s really hard to quantify a ‘minimum expectation’. If it narrowly misses a very specific criteria like you set do you sack him? Which is why the only criteria I can think of that would be fair and without context needing to apply (even this is slightly unfair) is to qualify for UCL.
But like I said even if he achieved that I might not be opposed to the sack.
Close the gap at the top to put up a real sustained title challenge even if we ultimately fall short and look like we belong against the big hitters in the CL. We can’t be a team in transition forever and although I do think there has been progress under Ole for the money spent we have to push on now.
Several teams have won the CL and done poorly in the PL. Many teams have had terrible luck with injures over the years. The scenario I described above isn't that crazy.
That wasn't Liverpool, that was Lollerpool.
I'm talking about the Liverpool who were challenging City to 95 points in the previous 2 seasons. I fully expect them to challenge again with VVD back, and we must try to keep pace.
Ideally it would be going into the last 6-8 weeks with even a relatively small hope of winning the league and for us to put in more convincing and controlled performances (I'm not sure going behind and then fighting back in most away games is going to be sustainable with crowds back). I would imagine as long as he makes top 4 he's safe but I would hope that my targets are achievable.
"Progress" and "we are getting there" are over. This is his 4th season here with basically whole squad being "his".
Title challenge (having around 85 points) and one cup is a must. Everything else is for sack.
Title challenge (having around 85 points) and one cup is a must. Everything else is for sack.
I am not sure winning the league is realistic but if Ole can do this:
- Beat teams that we are suppose to beat
- Better points return against the top 6
By doing just 2 things, we will winning or close to winning the league.
- Beat teams that we are suppose to beat
- Better points return against the top 6
By doing just 2 things, we will winning or close to winning the league.
Wanting to get rid of Ole, claiming he had not won anything....but then wanting to replace him with Poch who also had not won anything was just a bizarre piece of logic touted on here for months.