Minimum Bar for Continuity in Ole's Third Full Season

tidraKS said:
1. Win something
2. Be in serious race for Premier League
3. Be in serious race for Champions League
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I think being in a serious racr for the CL is going to be difficult. It's an incredibly tough competition and it takes years of experience to consistently navigate through. Look at how long it took the likes of city, Chelsea and psg after their oil daddies bought them before they were able to make it to the knock out stages.

Id say getting out of the group stages would be progress for a man Utd team that hasn't done that since 2019!
 
tidraKS said:
1. Win something
2. Be in serious race for Premier League
3. Be in serious race for Champions League
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This sounds reasonable. I'd add being more dominant against lesser sides. Ole's been good at getting results against big clubs, but we really struggle to dominate the opposition.
 
Last year Chelsea were well behind schedule and Liverpool had an annus horribilis, perhaps normal after two very good seasons. City are vastly superior on all fronts, especially when it comes to Team performance. They are better than the sum of the parts, United are not. Remember all the times we played badly in the first half and let in goals to all teams? There is a reason why this happens, but we have an excellent team capable of winning games when adrenaline takes over and so-called pre-match analysis are thrown out the window.

I find it highly unlikely that both Liverpool and Chelsea struggle like this again, I think Chelsea with their top manager and strong squad will be the closest to City. Liverpool is a strange one, but if van Dijk finds his former level it will naturally bring them up the table with ease. I also think Mane will have a much better season.

As for United, I would put my money on 4th, we just lack the gameplan and cohesion that only a top manager can bring. Why would we suddenly change this just because two new players arrive? As said, we are not better than the sum of all parts, so 3-4th would be expected until a top manager is introduced. We could have 2008 Barcelona playing, but without the structure and gameplan it’s not going to show on the pitch.

I see a lot of people talking about as title winners, but that is exceptionally deluded. We surely have the players and squad, but we do not have the manager for it. Some will attack that notion, but let’s review in about 10 months instead. We also lack power in the middle, you don’t win the CL or Premier League with the obvious gap we have in the middle. This can change of course, the window is still open for business.
 
Alex99 said:
So be in contention for the treble then? That's the minimum bar?
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Minimum bar is to win something and be in contention for everything. Just like City, Liverpool, Chelsea. I'm sure their goals are like this.

The squad we have, the investment he made and the years Ole had to make his style in our game are enough to be in contention for everything. I'm not saying I expect to win it all, but we should be in the race. I can't see any big strong team in the world right now, except PSG (if they get Messi) and City, so I think we can challenge for CHL too. Chelsea won last year, and I think that if we got past groups last season, we could have won it all.
 
tidraKS said:
Minimum bar is to win something and be in contention for everything. Just like City, Liverpool, Chelsea. I'm sure their goals are like this.

The squad we have, the investment he made and the years Ole had to make his style in our game are enough to be in contention for everything. I'm not saying I expect to win it all, but we should be in the race. I can't see any big strong team in the world right now, except PSG (if they get Messi) and City, so I think we can challenge for CHL too. Chelsea won last year, and I think that if we got past groups last season, we could have won it all.
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That's a ridiculous minimum bar.

Targets, sure. Bare minimum, nope.
 
My minimum bar is a proper title challenge. Cup competitions are too much of a lottery to judge our progress.

‘Winning something’ is not acceptable if it’s the EL or League Cup and we’re nowhere near in the Prem.

I just want some hope in my life.
 
Alex99 said:
That's a ridiculous minimum bar.

Targets, sure. Bare minimum, nope.
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After 2 and a half seasons in the job and having spent a fortune on players, yes that should be the minimum. He can't be allowed to go much longer without winning something, this is Manchester United not a small club like Everton. The clock should be ticking for him now, there are no more excuses left.
 
Andrew7582 said:
After 2 and a half seasons in the job and having spent a fortune on players, yes that should be the minimum. He can't be allowed to go much longer without winning something, this is Manchester United not a small club like Everton. The clock should be ticking for him now, there are no more excuses left.
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That isn't even the minimum for Pep. You're all insane.
 
Alex99 said:
That isn't even the minimum for Pep. You're all insane.
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What is the point in signing world class players like Varane and Sancho then, to finish top 4 again? We could have acheived that with the squad we already had.

For me ''be in contention for everything'' just means be competitive with the best teams. If we draw City in last 16 of CL and get beaten obviously that's not grounds for sacking, but getting smashed and looking miles off them wouldn't be acceptable either, there has to be evidence that we are getting closer to the top. I do demand a trophy next season though, it's been too long since we last won something and Ole has had enough chances already and messed them up, so there are no excuses left for him.
 
Andrew7582 said:
What is the point in signing world class players like Varane and Sancho then, to finish top 4 again? We could have acheived that with the squad we already had.

For me ''be in contention for everything'' just means be competitive with the best teams. If we draw City in last 16 of CL and get beaten obviously that's not grounds for sacking, but getting smashed and looking miles off them wouldn't be acceptable either, there has to be evidence that we are getting closer to the top. I do demand a trophy next season though, it's been too long since we last won something and Ole has had enough chances already and messed them up, so there are no excuses left for him.
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I think we've got different understandings of what the minimum bar is.

The OP set out criteria that meant you didn't even have to be happy with it, but it was just what would be enough to keep Ole in the job.

Top 4 will very likely do that.
 
I think a title challenge is a must. Not to say we should be winning it, because we have stiff competition in both City and Chelsea in particular. But you have to be going into the last couple of weeks of the season with a realistic chance of going top - or at least closing the gap - should one of those teams slip up. We haven’t been in that position for a while.

Winning a cup is important to me even if it’s not to some. It’s not the be-all and end-all and doesn’t necessarily indicate progress, but it’s a big reason why I watch and support my team. A good Champions League run, of course. What defines a “good” run is difficult to quantify I guess, but getting to the Semi-final would be satisfactory. As the cliche goes, anything could happen and before you know it you’re in the final. And at the end of the day, that’s all you can ask for as a fan; to give yourself a chance at winning something.

I suppose an improvement in the attacking cohesion when it comes to playing against certain teams. Those who sit deep and defend are oftentimes our achilles' heel. It’s effective football and difficult to play against (hence why they do it) but an improvement in the coaching department needs to be made there. Talking of coaching, our set-piece defending desperately needs improvement. We lost way too many goals (and points!) last season because of it. Unacceptable.
 
Minimum:

Top 4
CL knockouts (unless a stupidly hard group)

Expected:

Top 3
CL quarter finals
Cup final

Good Season:

Top 2
CL Semis
Cup Win
 
Alex99 said:
I'd go along with that, but the minimum bar for Ole to keep his job, as asked by the OP, certainly won't be that.
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If Ole fails to mount a title Challenge, he should not be the manager next season. it is his 4th year at the club and he has spent a fortune. He wont get that much time in any big club in the world.
 
Giggsyking said:
If Ole fails to mount a title Challenge, he should not be the manager next season. it is his 4th year at the club and he has spent a fortune. He wont get that much time in any big club in the world.
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We could have another mad season where City or someone gets 100 points. I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but I don't think it's necessarily fair to say things like "win a cup/reach the CL semis, finish within 5 points of 1st" as people have been.
 
tidraKS said:
Minimum bar is to win something and be in contention for everything. Just like City, Liverpool, Chelsea. I'm sure their goals are like this.

The squad we have, the investment he made and the years Ole had to make his style in our game are enough to be in contention for everything. I'm not saying I expect to win it all, but we should be in the race. I can't see any big strong team in the world right now, except PSG (if they get Messi) and City, so I think we can challenge for CHL too. Chelsea won last year, and I think that if we got past groups last season, we could have won it all.
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We couldn't win the Europa League against teams that won't be in the top 10 in the PL and you think we would have won the CL.
 
Andrew7582 said:
What is the point in signing world class players like Varane and Sancho then, to finish top 4 again? We could have acheived that with the squad we already had.

For me ''be in contention for everything'' just means be competitive with the best teams. If we draw City in last 16 of CL and get beaten obviously that's not grounds for sacking, but getting smashed and looking miles off them wouldn't be acceptable either, there has to be evidence that we are getting closer to the top. I do demand a trophy next season though, it's been too long since we last won something and Ole has had enough chances already and messed them up, so there are no excuses left for him.
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You demand a trophy? Nobody has a guaranteed right to win trophies.
 
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I have been supporting Ole and calling it as progress. If we don't challenge the league this season which is going to be his 3rd full season then Ole is not the right man. I'm not expecting winning the league or UCL but I expect challenging the league and I think it's reasonable especially given that he has spent money in every position except DM & GK. Beside, a progress after finishing 2nd with 74 points should be challenging the league.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
We couldn't win the Europa League against teams that won't be in the top 10 in the PL and you think we would have won the CL.
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Will be nice if we do not feck up getting out of the CL group stages. Avoid the EL altogether. As I said previously a sustained challenge for the league. I do not think we can win it yet, but surely to god we have learnt something from last season regarding low block teams.
 
tidraKS said:
Minimum bar is to win something and be in contention for everything. Just like City, Liverpool, Chelsea. I'm sure their goals are like this.

The squad we have, the investment he made and the years Ole had to make his style in our game are enough to be in contention for everything. I'm not saying I expect to win it all, but we should be in the race. I can't see any big strong team in the world right now, except PSG (if they get Messi) and City, so I think we can challenge for CHL too. Chelsea won last year, and I think that if we got past groups last season, we could have won it all.
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I don't think we have the midfield for this.
 
Getting sick of hearing people say he HAS to win something otherwise its a failure.

As long as we make progress and look like genuine title contenders I am happy. Chelsea and City clearly have way more quality in depth than we do, so why is it a failure if they edge us this season. We all want to win trophies, but this club was in such a shambles towards the end of the Mourinho reign (on and off the pitch) that progress is going to be slow if we want to rebuild properly.

Realistic aims:
PL Top 4 - BUT look more like challengers than last season - even if we end up 4th ultimately.
FA Cup - too many variables
UCL - Make it out of the group and ideally to QF+
Caraboa - dont care
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
I have been supporting Ole and calling it as progress. If we don't challenge the league this season which is going to be his 3rd full season then Ole is not the right man. I'm not expecting winning the league or UCL but I expect challenging the league and I think it's reasonable especially given that he has spent money in every position except DM & GK. Beside, a progress after finishing 2nd with 74 points should be challenging the league.
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I agree a title challenge is long overdue, but it's next to impossible right now with City holding the strongest squad in the PL by a distance, and that was before they signed Grealish. Adding Kane to that squad probably makes them the best club side in world football.

That said, winning the race for second place will be our most realistic accomplishment this year. Throw in a decent CL run (QF's or further) and winning one of the domestic cups would make for a successful season by any standards.
 
People here keep conflating "Whats a good season?" with "Whats so bad that it requires a change in management?".

Those are not the same question. Obviously the targets for a good season is winning something and challenging for the league. But what is a sackable season? If we have another season like this one where we don't win anything and finish a distant second, I'd definitely be disappointed. But is that enough to sack the manager? I'm not sure.
 
Random Task said:
I agree a title challenge is long overdue, but it's next to impossible right now with City holding the strongest squad in the PL by a distance, and that was before they signed Grealish. Adding Kane to that squad probably makes them the best club side in world football.

That said, winning the race for second place will be our most realistic accomplishment this year. Throw in a decent CL run (QF's or further) and winning one of the domestic cups would make for a successful season by any standards.
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City will never stop spending. The owner are very rich and willing to invest so we need to accept that and think of it as a challenge that we need to overcome. So when I said the right man means the right man who can compete with City who has the capability to spend every window buying players and replacing players whenever they like or need to. After the money Ole spent and time he's been given if he can't at least challenging the league then we need to find the right man who can do it with our resource limit. If Liverpool and Klopp could do it after given 3 summer windows then it's not impossible for the right manager.
 
Ayoba said:
I think being in a serious racr for the CL is going to be difficult. It's an incredibly tough competition and it takes years of experience to consistently navigate through. Look at how long it took the likes of city, Chelsea and psg after their oil daddies bought them before they were able to make it to the knock out stages.

Id say getting out of the group stages would be progress for a man Utd team that hasn't done that since 2019!
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Chelsea reached the semi finals fairly early several times after Roman took over. PSG had an issue getting past the QFs but no real issues getting to the knockout stages.
 
I think a minimum bar for the season should be a trophy along with a title challenge in the league. If we don't challenge for the title, Top 4 is not enough - In that scenario Ole needs to deliver a CL win. We are a big club and need to showcase that once again to the whole world. Big clubs tend to win something even when they are going through rough patches. We have a talented squad and even though we are not favourites in any of the competitions, it is upto Ole & his team to conjure some magic and take us past the barrier.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
City will never stop spending. The owner are very rich and willing to invest so we need to accept that and think of it as a challenge that we need to overcome. So when I said the right man means the right man who can compete with City who has the capability to spend every window buying players and replacing players whenever they like or need to. After the money Ole spent and time he's been given if he can't at least challenging the league then we need to find the right man who can do it with our resource limit. If Liverpool and Klopp could do it after given 3 summer windows then it's not impossible for the right manager.
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But City have a finished squad capable of challenging on all fronts, any further additions just increase the squad's effectiveness. Similar to United in 90's/00's. The same cannot be said for United, as we're still short several players in key positions. We're not in a position to challenge them yet.

The good news is we have the funds to build a squad capable of challenging them, and we're certainly heading in the right direction if this transfer window is any indication. Also, City can improve their first 11 so much. While signing world-class players is never a bad thing, their impact is limited when you're throwing them into a side already full of world-class players. Whereas the effect of a world-class player on the current United will have a huge impact - Bruno for example. Hopefully Sancho + Varane too.

We'll claw them back eventually. I'm sure of it.
 
Random Task said:
But City have a finished squad capable of challenging on all fronts, any further additions just increase the squad's effectiveness. Similar to United in 90's/00's. The same cannot be said for United, as we're still short several players in key positions. We're not in a position to challenge them yet.

The good news is we have the funds to build a squad capable of challenging them, and we're certainly heading in the right direction if this transfer window is any indication. Also, City can improve their first 11 so much. While signing world-class players is never a bad thing, their impact is limited when you're throwing them into a side already full of world-class players. Whereas the effect of a world-class player on the current United will have a huge impact - Bruno for example. Hopefully Sancho + Varane too.

We'll claw them back eventually. I'm sure of it.
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2 CB, 1 RB, 1 LB, 2 Midfields, 2 Wingers, 1 Striker. I count at least 9 players for first/senior team and 2 young prospect signings there. He received the backing and we can't make excuses. If we can't challenge the league while Klopp did it under Liverpool after his 3rd summer window then Ole is not the right manager who can overcome City's unlimited resource with our limited resource. I'm not asking winning it but at least challenging it. The only thing I can see progress without challenging the league in Ole's third full season is if we win UCL.
 
UNITED ACADEMY said:
2 CB, 1 RB, 1 LB, 2 Midfields, 2 Wingers, 1 Striker. I count at least 9 players for first/senior team and 2 young prospect signings there. That's more than enough to challenge the league. If we can't challenge the league while Klopp did it under Liverpool after his 3rd summer window then Ole is not the right manager who can overcome City's unlimited resource. I'm not asking winning it but at least challenging it. The only thing I can see progress without challenging the league in Ole's third full season is if we win UCL.
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I've already said finishing second would be par for the season. Whether you can call that challenging for the title depends on the points margin between us. What would you consider challenging for the title?

This City side is infinitely superior to the one that finished second to Liverpool. It's not a fair comparison to the one United are tasked with overcoming this season, in my opinion.
 
Random Task said:
I've already said finishing second would be par for the season. Whether you can call that challenging for the title depends on the points margin between us. What would you consider challenging for the title?

This City side is infinitely superior to the one that finished second to Liverpool. It's not a fair comparison to the one United are tasked with overcoming this season, in my opinion.
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Challenging means going toe to toe with 1st (4 points difference in April or May, more or less) and losing it around May. If we lose the title before we enter May then that's not challenging.

City will always have superior squad due to their unlimited resource power. If Ole can't make us to challenge that unlimited resource power club like Klopp did with limited resource power in his 3rd full season then we need to find someone else who can.
 
Top four is always a requirement to continue in the job, and I think there would be some hard questions to answer should we fail to get out of the CL group again, so I think it would be fair to set those as minimum requirements. The rest is really a little pointless given how many random factors there are in determining a clubs season. It would be nice to avoid getting one of hardest draws we can get in nearly every round of every cup competition.
 
rcoobc said:
Minimum:

Top 4
CL knockouts (unless a stupidly hard group)

Expected:

Top 3
CL quarter finals
Cup final

Good Season:

Top 2
CL Semis
Cup Win
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End of coming season means Ole in charge for 3 and half seasons already.

With any other manager, with the amount of money spend and with the team we have now, most of us will be asking for at least CL or PL win.

But alas… it’s Ole.

Special treatment or is Ole not capable of doing it? Why the low expectations?

Mind you, when Klopp was into his 3rd season at Liverpool, we were all mocking him for not winning anything even after spending a lot. And at least his team was playing good football right from the start. Our football is still the same old boring defend and counter attack.
 
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