You know the earth spins right? So yes the sun is always shining somewhere, it's what I like to think of as a fact. Maybe if we have a nuclear winter it won't be I suppose?
Insulate Britain Protests
- Thread starter Murder on Zidanes Floor
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You know the earth spins right? So yes the sun is always shining somewhere, it's what I like to think of as a fact. Maybe if we have a nuclear winter it won't be I suppose?
I meant in a practical sense. Solar panels cannot expect to get sunshine when it's clouded or during the evening and nightime.
Exactly, they're protesting for a solution that is in no way shape or form a solution.
Presumably because these protesters are generally not educated enough to understand the complexity of the issue.
Here's an example of the sort of project people are working on to get around this problem:
https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/
And yes, we will need "overcapacity" of these renewable sources in the sense that if we wanted to consistently be able to power the grid off entirely renewable energy, it's possible we'll at times have to "dump" energy because we've planned for when the sun isn't shining very bright and now it is, but dumping electricity is a lot easier than producing it, it's not a big concern.
I think another thing that is mostly overlooked when insulating homes is just how unbearable these energy efficient homes are in the summer. Sales of air con units are soaring and as the climate gets warmer it's going to get worse.
As long as they target it as Southerners who deserve all of the ire and issues they face - it’s fine by me. If I was inconvenienced it’d be a different matter.
Surely that depends on how well ventilated they can be? Like if you keep the windows open at night and close them during the day, in theory a well insulated home would stay more or less at the night time temperature. Perhaps you'd need shutters of course for this to work to stop the solar gain, but then that's how the hot bits of Europe have done it for centuries. It doesn't seem insurmountable.
I've lived in a house that was super insulated. It was a 120 year old terrace on a busy road. Sleeping with the window open was not possible in my experience because whilst the road is a lot quieter at night, it's the infrequency of the traffic that wakes you. The other issue is that a lot of people won't be comfortable with leaving their windows open all night because of the threat of crime. I don't think it's unreasonable to feel that way, especially when you live in a two or more floored house. I think the other issue is that when you live in a country that is quite cool a lot of the time then the relatively sudden onset of oppressive temperatures is harder to deal with.
Yeah that's my assumption as well, but they should educate themselves then. Especially if they care enough to protest about it and throw themselves in front of cars. I mean it's actually extraordinarily dumb when you think about it. I feel like things like this that trivialise bigger issues also make protesting lose its power in general.
The M25 is also a weird choice of location to cause disruption because it's always at a fecking stand still. If it's not a protest it's an accident at the Dartford crossing, or too much traffic at Lakeside, or a broken down lorry, or a bit of rain, or it's just Friday...
It just sums up the whole thing though. People are more interested in being seen to be doing or saying good than in actually doing it, because the latter requires putting time and effort in, and sometimes (in fact most of the time) isn't a case of there just being an easy answer!
Yeah fair point about traffic noise, although again shutters could help. I suppose we ought to devise better passive ventilation methods that we could retrofit to older houses ideally though.
No it really isn't.
If you are a narcissist or anarchist type then yes. On the other hand if you could just step back a little and understand that the things you really believe, though important to you, might be untenable or ill thought out, then you might think as the rest of society thinks, you are behaving like spoilt children who don't get their own way. Not only that but you are opening the way for all the other knob heads to destroy civil society because I'm sure they also believe they are so right that the continuation of normal daily life is secondary to their cause.
Open the cultural abyss and lets see how long it takes for e.g the anti abortionist to stop you getting to work because your desire to kill babies is so horrendous that you don't deserve a normal daily life.
The frightening lack of imagination in terms of the ways your authoritarian absolutism bites you very directly in the arse almost instantly after you sanction direct action has always astounded me.
I wish we could get back to winning arguments by making winning arguments rather than deciding unilaterally we won the argument and feck the blasphemers.
Well, sure, if you make up terrible analogies and change my "disrupting daily life" to "destroying civil society", I guess you're right.
I've read a book about Lucy Burns a while ago, and a judge who sent her to prison actually asked her if she thought she was giving a good example to other women and noticed her radical actions were detrimental to the cause of women. To various degrees, it's the same argument nowadays when it comes to climate. Unless the protest is in the middle of the woods between 2 and 5 am, then it's just a bunch of narcissistic anarchists with no respect for their fellow citizens who are just hurting their own cause. Funny that protests that bother no one never make the news and therefore have zero impact.
I'm glad all those people who achieved great improvements to our society in the past did so by winning arguments and not actually disrupting society with protests.
The thing is making changes to civil rights generally requires public backing and pressure from the public on the government to make the required legal changes. So raising awareness and making a scene is vital to get the message.
The climate crisis is a massive scientific and engineering challenge its not as simple as just changing a piece of legislation or abolishing an outdated law. The government is onside they are putting things in place and attempting to get us a realistic path to net zero are they doing enough? Hard to tell.
Its such a massively complicated issue there is no one size fits all solution. Insulating homes may help but is it worth the time/money/energy and the carbon footprint it will produce for whats is going to achieve? You want to help with the climate crisis? Get an education, get yourself into the energy sector and actively do something about it.
You need to explain how protesting about insulating homes is going to make anyone's life better for any of this sarcastic drivel to make any sense.
As several people in this thread have pointed out, it's something that would arguably do more harm than good.
Show me the plan for how you would insulate "leaky" homes without having to carry out extremely substantial and impractical work to most of them. Show me the plan to do this without carbon emissions being caused by the creation and transport of the materials, and the materials themselves...then show me the science that proves there would be an energy/carbon saving payback in a short enough time to not make the whole thing completely pointless.
I am fairly sure you can't do any of these things. So what are these people actually protesting about?
Insulation keeps heat out as well as in so this isn't as much of a problem as people tend to think.
The problem with ventilation however you do it is the better ventilated or more able the house is to breathe, the less effective the insulation is going to be. Passive ventilation isn't easy to install in a 100 year old home.
This is kind of hitting on one of the big issues with better insulation standards as well....people will put the heating on and then open their windows at the same time. Often in an older house they will have to in order to prevent damp/mould. At that point it really doesn't matter how much insulation you have.
I would have thought the easier target here would be new homes. New houses van be extremely energy efficient because you can install solar panels, heat exchangers, ground source heat extraction, and construct them in ways that doesn't leave gaps for heat to escape through. There's examples of office buildings that completely self power themselves from green energy sources (look up 1 Angel Square). It's possible for new homes to have almost 0 carbon footprint, and we're building a lot of them, but developers just aren't interested in doing it.
how come they never do this shit in hampstead high street
More of this please.
Can I nick this, Im currently arguing with someone who supports these dillholes and you have put it beautifully
Any studies on that?
Solar panels don't need direct sunlight to work. The key is daylight, not direct sunlight. Yes, they work at an optimum on sunny days, but they don't just stop working altogether on a cloudy day.
Also -
What do they think sitting on roads all day with cheap basic banners will do besides pissing off the very people they need to get on their side? Because that is what they are doing. Public opinion on fighting climate change is different to how world governments are treating the matter. The people who ought to be targeted are the people with authority.
What they are doing is counterproductive. It is turning people away from their organisation and the other movements within the environmental activist circle are going to be tarred by association.
What they are doing is counterproductive. It is turning people away from their organisation and the other movements within the environmental activist circle are going to be tarred by association.
100%
Go to multinational corporation offices and protest there. Go to the US and Chinese Embassy. They're the ones who you could justifiably target.
Not people trying to get by during difficult times. Not people trying to take loved ones to hospital.
It's selfish and narcissistic.
It's also not like fighting for social equality rights, where social attitudes are the issue. Climate change requires bottom-up pressure but only top-down change. They're hurting their cause now.
Shouldn't have to do that.... police should be there ASAP with dogs and tazers
This has me asking what the real news story should be this week that the media is covering up. Probably the ineptitude of the Tories at their party conference.
My point was about protests in general, not about insulating homes specifically. I know nothing about insulating homes or if it's an effective measure or not, so I will not get into any specifics about that.
I was making a general point in answer to some things said in this thread about how you turn people against a cause if you inconvenience them.
I bet nobody here would be talking about this if the protesters hadn't blocked some roads. That was my point, if you want to bring up an issue and have the general public talk and think about it, you need this kind of disruption. Some people may find it too much but if a cause is positive for society the net result of disruption will be positive too. If it's not, the issue will die down and disappear. Without disruption it will never have that chance to be scrutinized by the public at large.
I deal with teenage kids everyday and the climate protests around the world in these last few years have them talk about it, think about it and some of them get engaged in protests, awareness campaigns and changing their habits and how their schools deal with energy and waste. I would bet all my money none of that would've happened if they had just learned about it through teachers or books.
For me a positive protest is about getting people on your side.
The whole thing stinks, doesn't it? I understand the protests about general climate issues but I refuse to believe that anybody on earth could possibly give that much of a shit specifically about home insulation.
I think that's happening.
No one is going to report on the random joe who started getting informed about a certain issue, making changes in his life and maybe vote accordingly, that's not news. So of course you only see the reports about the people who complain.
And look, I get people get angry when they're inconvenienced. I'm not judging someone who's stuck in traffic for hours and gets pissed about it, it's perfectly understandable. I just think long term, when the cause appeals to people in general, like for example climate change does, it'll end up being a positive thing for society as a whole.
I think they are a bunch of wankers to be honest.
I have seen road block protests first hand myself but the difference is that particular event, which was not to do with environmental policy, had people handing out leaflets that explained their cause. They had a large group of people handing out these leaflets and we were allowed to go to our destinations as normal but at least with something to take away from that demonstration. Something physical and informational. London is already a heavy traffic place anyway so being able to find a road that is at standstill isn't too difficult and that's how they made their message clear.
Insulate Britain are not informing anyone about anything though. They're sitting together with a tacky banner that looks like it has been printed from Sports Direct. There is no information about what their organisation is about, what their demands are, why it is necessary to do so. The science and practical necessity behind it. They are just sitting in silence for hours refusing to interact with drivers who naturally are pissed off. "Insulate Britain" their banners say. Ok, we've read it. Now what do you want?
OK then.
If they really wanted to cause some attention they could self-immolate like Tibetan protesters.
I can get behind that idea. Burn an idiot to keep the heating off for a day, two birds, one stone situation.
Yeah makes sense. Maybe the developers need training and financial incentives? E.g. tax a natural gas boiler at 1000% VAT for a new build and give tax relief on heat pumps or whatever?
We are all collectively doing that.
Out of interest what's the supply of heat pumps like.. and how many trained fitters
Taxing things to the point of unafordability without a sufficiently robust supply chain for alternative (which there isnt) is a bad solution
It is estimated that around 80% of buildings in 2050 have already been built. So, only focusing on new builds will not solve the issue. That is retro fitting to decarbonize Uk existing housing stock (where possible) is so important.