The clear and obvious difference besides Max being ahead in the corner is the massive gap after the corner. It isn't nearly the same, but if you can argue that, then you can argue anything and there is no point in discussing this any further.
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The clear and obvious difference besides Max being ahead in the corner is the massive gap after the corner. It isn't nearly the same, but if you can argue that, then you can argue anything and there is no point in discussing this any further.
Lewis gave back the time, just not the position. So bit of a moot point.
Ok, we're done then. Its a block pass, its bad racing hence why there wasn't a penalty. Again, just because you think something is 'obvious' doesn't make it so. If you'd like I can find pundits/commentators that agree with me? If its as obvious as you say I shouldn't be able to find anyone to support my position should I?
Also, its absolutely pathetic that you'd go through my entire post, pick up on an 'aside', latch onto it and declare the conversation over. Your inability to back up a single thing you've said with anything other than "its obvious" or "we're done talking" belies the thiness of your argument.
I'm a Max fan but even I could see Hamilton had no option but to go off track. Max left him no room. The issue I have with the incident is Hamilton gained too much of an advantage since he was much further ahead after the corner than he was before. The stewards said he made up for that somehow but I have seen no evidence of that. Still, it's a relatively minor thing considering he would probably have driven off into the sunset anyway. The race pace of the Merc was a lot better.
I'm responding to your point about Brazil, dont' change the subject, provide something, anything, factual to back your point up.
That's a myth. Lewis didn't give back the same and even IF he did, its ridiculous because any other time a driver has to give position back
You said Max set the precedent, comparing it to Abu Dhabi. So obviously I'm going to point out the differences. You're getting a bit tiresome.
I agree with this. Lewis didn't need to give the place back, but he should have dropped a bit further back. Although as you say, it would have had little effect. Perhaps because the stewards thought the move wasn't fair, they weren't inclined to quibble over 0.5s-1s?
Lewis Hamilton lost the WDC because of a feck up does not equate disaster for almost everyone. Anyway, never denied it was not a feck up by Masi, but the feck was not only the one you are mad about, it started from the first lap of the race to the penultimate one where he decided to not allow the cars to unlap themselves earlier.
It was a clusterfeck and it culminated in that final lap.
I didn't say Max set the predecent, you've got the wrong person. If you think someone calling you out on your baseless crap is tiresome, then I heartily appologize. You have other Max fans saying you're wrong.....
Watch it back. Lewis could've rejoined the track way sooner than he did.
Not if being forced off, which he clearly was. I agree he re-entered quite dodgy, so can see why people complain about that.
Whew my bad. It's a bit confusing discussing this with multiple people at the same time.
Not as bad as this week. Hamilton losing like that has pissed off all his fans. I cam understand to a certain extent, but give it a rest.
When I did the same earlier you declared you would ignore everything else said. Perhaps you need to calm down a bit. There's other Max fans saying Lewis didn't need to give the place back, but you still assert its such an obvious penalty that to deny it is to forfeit the debate. Really?
Yes because Lewis made no effort to rejoin the track. Also you're right, I'm gonna give it a rest because there's no arguing with you people if you think what happened in the first lap was fair.
Even other Max fans who have defended him vociferously in this thread disagree with you, but you again declare it so obvious there's "no arguing with you people". Perhaps you need to take a step back.
Totto didnt mince his words did he? "Lewis was robbed of his 8th world championship.."
The person you're referring to also said the way Lewis rejoined was unfair. You're not even addressing it. I've mentioned it 5 times now, no reply from you about how he rejoined. Have a good day.
He clearly didn't, surely nobody believes that? Though it's something Red Bull will have had to protest after the race and then gone into the telemetries to prove. Brundle was speaking for everyone in commentary with that one.
Don't see the point in arguing about luck, there's only ever going to be one winner for luck this season. Max should have had ~60 more points going into Abu Dhabi based on Baku, Silverstone and Hungary. Lewis fluked 18 points at Imola because of a red flag.
The Brazil fracas cost Lewis no points, Max effectively gained 2 because he should have got a time penalty. Monza cost Lewis maybe 8 points relative to Max, assuming he'd have won and Max finish second. Spa was a 5 point gain to Max but had he won the race from poll then he still effectively lost ground, so that one is irrelevant.
He said he thought he should have given more time back, not that the place should have been returned. I've just watched it and I don't think Lewis could have rejoined much earlier. To rejoin in the chicane probably would have conceded a bunch more places (which he didn't have to). He took pretty much a direct path from the part he went off to the exit after the chicane. You can't cut much more off there because there's a wall:
So Lewis drove from where he was blocked off the track a straight line past the chicane and onto the track. What do you think Lewis should have done? If you are forced off the track during a chicane you are not obliged to rejoin and redrive the chicane.
If you'd like to provide any supporting information to your claim, which so far you havn't all thread, I'd be glad to hear it.
Spa was the tie-breaker enabling Max to crash both of them out and still win in the final race, though.
He's not wrong though, plus it's important they keep pushing this - if Merc roll over it's a clear sign to the FIA and Masi that they can do whatever they like, no matter the rules.
Yeah that's a fair point. I dont think it should have counted as a GP win.
he never.
He said he thought he should have given more time back, not that the place should have been returned. I've just watched it and I don't think Lewis could have rejoined much earlier. To rejoin in the chicane probably would have conceded a bunch more places (which he didn't have to). He took pretty much a direct path from the part he went off to the exit after the chicane. You can't cut much more off there because there's a wall:
So Lewis drove from where he was blocked off the track a straight line past the chicane and onto the track. What do you think Lewis should have done? If you are forced off the track during a chicane you are not obliged to rejoin and redrive the chicane.
If you'd like to provide any supporting information to your claim, which so far you havn't all thread, I'd be glad to hear it.
I think Brundle knows what he's talking about, don't you? Even explained Max was ahead. You say I'm baseless, but I have Martin Brundle on my side.
OK, so your only supporting evidence is one commentator agrees with you. Yet the stewards thought otherwise, as did some of the other pundits btw. Provide something, draw a map showing where he went off and where you'd have liked him to come back on. Explain his line and what you didn't like. Do something other than nothing.
You're having a laugh mate. You want me to email you diagrams too? Keep moving the goalposts, I'm done with you
No, I'm asking to do more than nothing to backup your position, no goalposts have moved, I've been asking you to backup your position. I showed you a picture of the wall that demonstrated the path back to the circuit, you did nothing but show a video of the incident that we've all seen 100 times. In fact, your own video just shows Lewis driving a straight line back to the track, it seems you think Lewis should have turned around and driven back through the chicane. You're a joker mate, you spout sweeping statements then baulk when asked to back them up.You're having a laugh mate. You want me to email you diagrams? Keep moving the goalposts, I'm done with you
Let's try out this ignore feature everyone's been talking about.
I wish he would quite.
Easily.
Exposed myself.That's not even in the same ballpark
The irony after the state of your posts. If I exposed myself you are skinny dipping in broad daylight mate. Max brakes too late into corners pushing other cars off the track. Something else Masi has not punished.
Maybe look at the other examples such as Masi breaking the rules to award Max the win?
Our Max brake checking and not getting a grid penalty or disqualification?
It is clear that the championship was manipulated, firstly to create a final race "showdown" and secondly to manipulate the final laps of that race to enable Max to win.
Marko and Horner wish they would both quit !
Marko is even worse than Horner
“We broke their seven-year dominance with a young guy and a young, motivated team.
“It’s disgusting what they did after the race to protest when it was clear it would not work. This is a very bad loser for me.”
Marko is even worse than Horner
“We broke their seven-year dominance with a young guy and a young, motivated team.
“It’s disgusting what they did after the race to protest when it was clear it would not work. This is a very bad loser for me.”
Think this thread is too polarized now, so the best hope is to have move on from this season to next. My thoughts
Season : What.A.Season. I think it was a much needed season with two competitive seasons after a bunch of seasons dominated by Mercedes. It rekindled my interest in the sport from a "read the headlines and find out what happened" to actively tuning in to watch the race. Thanks in no small part to Red Bull, Mercedes teams and two immensely talented and driven drivers. It literally came to the last lap of the last race of the season as a one off winner takes all, and I've never seen anything like it. It was brilliant entertainment and racing. As much as
Mercedes and Redbull : They pulled their socks and made some good decisions for the last few races but I think overall, they would look back on this season where they made a lot of mistakes. In spite of Bottas winning more points than Perez, I think Perez defended Verstappen better than Bottas did Hamilton. There were multiple points in the season where Mercedes as a team trailed Red Bull. Perhaps winning the first title was motivation enough for Red bull. That said, changing engines was a great decision and provided Hamilton a much faster car for the last few races. Personally I think Red Bull car was faster than the Mercedes before the engine change, but don't know how to compute the advantage of a slightly faster car for about 15 races and a much slower car for the final 5 races. All in all, both teams contributed to a great spectacle.
Hamilton : Never understood some of the hate received by Hamilton receives from the fans worldwide. Brilliant and a talented driver. Spoke up against Saudi Arabian atrocities and generally comes across as a nice guy. Likes Senna and that's a plus too. Yes, there is some arrogance but champions do have arrogance. Knighthood is well deserved and his total number of wins and accolades speaks for itself. Personally I feel he is not respected like Schumacher and other legends were but each to his own. He drove beautifully, with controlled aggression and passion this year and handled things impeccably well. I'm not a Lewis Hamilton fan, but take a fecking bow.
Verstappen : Worthy champion. To set the pace with a supremely talented driver like Lewis Hamilton throughout a season is no small achievement and he has driven like a driven man. Some of his aggression bordered on the line but to beat a champion like Hamilton was nerve wrackingly brilliant. His team supported him well, even Perez came up trumps in the most important moments of the season. Perez holding off Hamilton for those precious seconds was some brilliant driving. Without that, Hamilton would have been well outside the lap window and could have pitted for soft tires without giving up position in the final race. He was unlucky in a few races and I think he would have finished the season earlier if he had finished the Baku and Silverstone races but he also got lucky plenty of times and also got the biggest stroke of luck in the final lap of the season. That being said, a worthy champion.
Masi : Even before the fiasco of the last race, I think he should have done his job better. Give more power to the race stewards instead of bartering with the teams to give or take a place. Yes, he is a race director but he's making himself a target for bias complaints. F1 has race stewards to take decisions, let them take it instead of putting his nose everywhere. Also don't understand the complaints of race finishing under a safety car when in the same season we witnessed the farce of Belgian Grand Prix. I do understand the motivation of final lap winner takes all, but the gymnastics made to arrive at that scenario feels made up for entertainment and not as implementing the rulebook. That said, I loved the spectacle myself so I'm a bit unsure how to feel about this. I think in general, he needs to take a back seat a bit.
Bias in this thread : Absolutely nauseating. Perhaps some posters n this thread feel the need to defend Hamilton from the abuse he gets outside but there are some ridiculous posts in this thread. Same can be said of nutter Verstappen fans. Mercedes was never going to take the decision to CAS or FIA, Safety cars has been used since God knows when and the lead is always wiped out, there were questionable decisions for Hamilton as well as Verstappen throughout the season. Some posters only want to bring up the bad ones for Hamilton and the others only want to bring up the points when Verstappen was wronged. Let's move on guys.
Final lap : At the end of the day, questionable decisions were made and none more questionable than letting some of the unlapped cars lap themselves while retaining some. At best, the interpretation was Masi didn't want the race to end with a Safety car and he wanted to lift it to allow one last lap, and realized that he can't let cars lap themselves as they would need an additional lap, so decided go ahead with partial unlap as the best of worst decisions he had to make. At worst, he was compromising race rules for entertainment value. If I was a Hamilton fan, I would think it's more akin to a dubious hand ball penalty given in the last minute of the UCL finals. I enjoyed the race and the spectable but I can understand the bitterness of Mercedes / Hamilton fans.
Cheers to both teams, Hamilton and Verstappen for giving us the best F1 season in ages. Hope Hamilton comes back and absolutely mullers Red Bull next season. All I want for Christmas is one more season like this one
Season : What.A.Season. I think it was a much needed season with two competitive seasons after a bunch of seasons dominated by Mercedes. It rekindled my interest in the sport from a "read the headlines and find out what happened" to actively tuning in to watch the race. Thanks in no small part to Red Bull, Mercedes teams and two immensely talented and driven drivers. It literally came to the last lap of the last race of the season as a one off winner takes all, and I've never seen anything like it. It was brilliant entertainment and racing. As much as
Mercedes and Redbull : They pulled their socks and made some good decisions for the last few races but I think overall, they would look back on this season where they made a lot of mistakes. In spite of Bottas winning more points than Perez, I think Perez defended Verstappen better than Bottas did Hamilton. There were multiple points in the season where Mercedes as a team trailed Red Bull. Perhaps winning the first title was motivation enough for Red bull. That said, changing engines was a great decision and provided Hamilton a much faster car for the last few races. Personally I think Red Bull car was faster than the Mercedes before the engine change, but don't know how to compute the advantage of a slightly faster car for about 15 races and a much slower car for the final 5 races. All in all, both teams contributed to a great spectacle.
Hamilton : Never understood some of the hate received by Hamilton receives from the fans worldwide. Brilliant and a talented driver. Spoke up against Saudi Arabian atrocities and generally comes across as a nice guy. Likes Senna and that's a plus too. Yes, there is some arrogance but champions do have arrogance. Knighthood is well deserved and his total number of wins and accolades speaks for itself. Personally I feel he is not respected like Schumacher and other legends were but each to his own. He drove beautifully, with controlled aggression and passion this year and handled things impeccably well. I'm not a Lewis Hamilton fan, but take a fecking bow.
Verstappen : Worthy champion. To set the pace with a supremely talented driver like Lewis Hamilton throughout a season is no small achievement and he has driven like a driven man. Some of his aggression bordered on the line but to beat a champion like Hamilton was nerve wrackingly brilliant. His team supported him well, even Perez came up trumps in the most important moments of the season. Perez holding off Hamilton for those precious seconds was some brilliant driving. Without that, Hamilton would have been well outside the lap window and could have pitted for soft tires without giving up position in the final race. He was unlucky in a few races and I think he would have finished the season earlier if he had finished the Baku and Silverstone races but he also got lucky plenty of times and also got the biggest stroke of luck in the final lap of the season. That being said, a worthy champion.
Masi : Even before the fiasco of the last race, I think he should have done his job better. Give more power to the race stewards instead of bartering with the teams to give or take a place. Yes, he is a race director but he's making himself a target for bias complaints. F1 has race stewards to take decisions, let them take it instead of putting his nose everywhere. Also don't understand the complaints of race finishing under a safety car when in the same season we witnessed the farce of Belgian Grand Prix. I do understand the motivation of final lap winner takes all, but the gymnastics made to arrive at that scenario feels made up for entertainment and not as implementing the rulebook. That said, I loved the spectacle myself so I'm a bit unsure how to feel about this. I think in general, he needs to take a back seat a bit.
Bias in this thread : Absolutely nauseating. Perhaps some posters n this thread feel the need to defend Hamilton from the abuse he gets outside but there are some ridiculous posts in this thread. Same can be said of nutter Verstappen fans. Mercedes was never going to take the decision to CAS or FIA, Safety cars has been used since God knows when and the lead is always wiped out, there were questionable decisions for Hamilton as well as Verstappen throughout the season. Some posters only want to bring up the bad ones for Hamilton and the others only want to bring up the points when Verstappen was wronged. Let's move on guys.
Final lap : At the end of the day, questionable decisions were made and none more questionable than letting some of the unlapped cars lap themselves while retaining some. At best, the interpretation was Masi didn't want the race to end with a Safety car and he wanted to lift it to allow one last lap, and realized that he can't let cars lap themselves as they would need an additional lap, so decided go ahead with partial unlap as the best of worst decisions he had to make. At worst, he was compromising race rules for entertainment value. If I was a Hamilton fan, I would think it's more akin to a dubious hand ball penalty given in the last minute of the UCL finals. I enjoyed the race and the spectable but I can understand the bitterness of Mercedes / Hamilton fans.
Cheers to both teams, Hamilton and Verstappen for giving us the best F1 season in ages. Hope Hamilton comes back and absolutely mullers Red Bull next season. All I want for Christmas is one more season like this one
I think maybe you find the rules of F1 confusing too. Did you start watching only recently?
Them two are a disease to this sport. Imagine their reactions if this happened to Max instead.
Agreed. Totto and Lewis wont be at the presentation tonight. Rightly so. Whole situation is such a farce.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion.
But the controversy is not about using safety cars.
Are you 12? You're on my ignore list now.
Last edited: