Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

TheReligion said:
That’s not countering it.

Explain what he’s wrong about and explain why
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I'm not getting into another endless argument on the sins and hypocrisy of the West in this thread, let's keep it on the situation at hand.

I'll leave it at this, having spent most of my life between the West and the Middle East (being a born and bred Mancunian) and having had many business partners, friends and acquaintances from the Middle East I have failed to meet one that is thankful to the West for 'saving them from tyranny'. Which is I'm sure how the good people of Ukraine feel right now. Despite the fact that in Russia they're pegging this as if they're 'Saving the Ukraine' similar to how the West was 'saving the Middle East'.

I also find it funny how people in this thread can say you shouldn't mention the 'history' of the West and 'Whataboutery' in this thread to criticise the West in this conflict but the same people use it as a justification of the destruction of the Middle East.
 
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Mihai said:
And still you have things like this, which I bet is only the tip of the iceberg.

HSBC
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Yes, which is a regulated environment where companies who get it wrong get punished. It ain't happening in a lot of countries.

For all that I know there are teams where I work that are not following the rules. We have thousands upon thousands of employees. I work within technology - I see the changes based on what we need to do with the systems to make them compliant with new regulations. We have 1,000+ systems, some running Fortan from the 1970s which isn't even really taught in a Comp Sci degree anymore and the people who wrote them retired long ago. It's challenging, not everything is got right, just like happens in any company in the world.

Ultimately 95% of the people I work with and interact with want to get things right.

Anyway, think I've got some way away from the intention of the thread. Feel free to PM if you want to discuss this further.
 
Mogget said:
I can't believe it even needs countering.

Why were those regions volatile and conflict-ridden? Did that happen in a vacuum?
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The region has been conflict ridden since before the US even existed. At the very least since the Ottomans started carving territories up.
 
TheReligion said:
Rather than asking, if you know the answers, take time and counter the post and explain why? Obviously more beneficial to those not as well versed to understand why he’s so wrong?
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I mean, you’d have to be living under a giant fecking rock if you think that needs explaining.
 
TheReligion said:
It’s a joke but that will become the reality in Russia. I feel for the people there I really do. Visa and Mastercard will no longer work, their money worthless, unable to travel..

What will it take for an uprising?
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Enormous courage and the willingness to die I should think.
 
Pexbo said:
I doubt Russia do either, they’re hoping Ukraine start moving civilians away from them and in doing so identify where they are.

They should start moving civvies away from redundant areas.
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That was my first thought as well. It’s not like they haven’t been shelling cities already and killing civilians.
 
the_cliff said:
I'm not getting into another endless argument on the sins and hypocrisy of the West in this thread, let's keep it on the situation at hand.

I'll leave it at this, having spent most of my life between the West and the Middle East (being a born and bred Mancunian) and having had many business partners, friends and acquaintances from the Middle East I have failed to meet one that is thankful to the West for 'saving them from tyranny'. Which is I'm sure how the good people of Ukraine feel right now. Despite the fact that in Russia they're pegging this as if they're 'Saving the Ukraine' similar to how the West was 'saving the Middle East'.

I also find it funny how people in this thread can say you shouldn't mention the 'history' of the West and 'Whataboutery' in this thread to criticise the West in this conflict but the same people use it as a justification of the destruction of the Middle East. :lol: :lol:
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Fair enough. I’ll pass on the green smileys though. Don’t think the thread or conversation warrants them.

The Corinthian said:
I mean, you’d have to be living under a giant fecking rock if you think that needs explaining.
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Please do..

Dans said:
Enormous courage and the willingness to die I should think.
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This will be the worst thing they have ever seen since the war. In fact even worse than that.
 
11101 said:
The region has been conflict ridden since before the US even existed. At the very least since the Ottomans started carving territories up.
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So has Europe. So in that context, what's happening in Ukraine is just more of the same. Right?
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
The reply ... not what she wanted but perhaps realistic (given consequences of such actions)

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Disappointing that he didn't answer her questions regarding the Russian elite. I believe that's what she actually aimed for because it is clear that we can't go into a nuclear war for Ukraine. But making the people suffer who can actually get through to Putin and burst his bubble, that's something we should do and that should be done with more consequence and without loopholes.
 
Zehner said:
Disappointing that he didn't answer her questions regarding the Russian elite. I believe that's what she actually aimed for because it is clear that we can't go into a nuclear war for Ukraine. But making the people suffer who can actually get through to Putin and burst his bubble, that's something we should do and that should be done with more consequence and without loopholes.
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As much as I’m no fan of his I think he’s done very well so far and what’s he’s said has been brilliant.

Not seen much else from world leaders to be honest. The rest of Europe was very slow to even help out whilst the UK (and US to be fair) have been sending weapons and soldiers to help with training, for weeks and months now.
 
TheReligion said:
As much as I’m no fan of his I think he’s done very well so far and what’s he’s said has been brilliant.

Not seen much else from world leaders to be honest. The rest of Europe was very slow to even help out whilst the UK (and US to be fair) have been sending weapons and soldiers to help with training, for weeks and months now.
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I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.
 
Zehner said:
Disappointing that he didn't answer her questions regarding the Russian elite. I believe that's what she actually aimed for because it is clear that we can't go into a nuclear war for Ukraine. But making the people suffer who can actually get through to Putin and burst his bubble, that's something we should do and that should be done with more consequence and without loopholes.
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I think the no fly zone (and peoples suffering generally, which is fully understandable) were her main points.. Roman possibly mentioned as an example that would be relevant given UK PM in front of her. I’m not sure the billionaires will really suffer (they might be affected but they’ll still be rich?) or impact on Putins plans/mindset
 
the_cliff said:
I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.
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They've announced sanctions. Implementing them and enforcing them is very different entirely.

It is the exact same thing Priti Patel and the Home Office are doing. A big announcement of support, a headline grabbing figure... then still, nothing changes.
 
Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.
 
the_cliff said:
I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.
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You can't be serious?
 
Walrus said:
Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.
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If you are a Russian and are in Russia, you will not and can not ask this question publicly.
 
Walrus said:
Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.
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that nato was bombing civilians in the donbas to support their drug addicted neo nazi puppet regime and shot down russian planes that were bringing in urgent medical supplies

I mean its pretty clear by now he will say whatever he wants and the russian media will regurgitate it (because they are pretty much dead if they dont)
 
Water Melon said:
If you are a Russian and are in Russia, you will not and can not ask this question publicly.
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Indeed, but the more we (as the West) can do to force Putin to contradict his claims, or to open up the eyes of the Russian people to what is going on, the better. One thing we could do is force Putin to admit that he has forces all over Ukraine, by enacting the no-fly zone over the west half, on the grounds that it is to stop the aerial bombing of urban population centres.
 
sun_tzu said:
that nato was bombing civilians in the donbas to support their drug addicted neo nazi puppet regime and shot down russian planes that were bringing in urgent medical supplies

I mean its pretty clear by now he will say whatever he wants and the russian media will regurgitate it (because they are pretty much dead if they dont)
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Yeah, but the more we put him on the back foot and force him to come out with these ridiculous statements, the more pressure it puts on him domestically and abroad, and the more countries around the world might start to question his rationality and use as an ally.
 
LDUred said:
There are questions over the legalities of wars in Syria and Iraq, but those regions were exceptionally volatile and conflict-ridden anyway. Just as a footnote, there are 250 mass graves in Iraq that are dating from 1979-2003, the time of Saddam's rule. I don't know how that can be blamed upon the West. Anyone who is of the Shiite faith or who is Kurdish will be glad that the world was rid of Saddam. As a hardline Sunni, Saddam did not view them as being Iraqi, so he felt that he could do with them what he wished.

Regardless of how you feel about Ukraine under its current rule, Iraq was a country where in a single year literally tens of thousands of kurds were killed using chemicals, and that is verified by independent human rights groups. I don't know how this can be compared to the situation in the Ukraine, which despite having problems with separatists, has nothing approaching that level of outright genocide of people on ethnic grounds.

Assad was arguably far worse than even Saddam. It was the world's responsibility to get rid of them and had the west done nothing, people still would have died unjustly. Again, this is not comparable to the situation in the Ukraine. Atrocities were happening in the region and would have gone on happening without intervention.

The Ukrainian conflict is an entirely different proposition and is about a hostile invading force taking over a peaceful country that has long been concerned for its safety since Soviet rule broke down.

I really don't think we do ourselves any favours by comparing like-for-like with ME wars. It merely fudges a very complex issue. In saying that, I do believe that opposition towards Western intervention often manifests as unwitting tacit support for blood-lust dictators, and their right to hold entire ethnic groups under their anvil.
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I do agree with the sentiment that the situation is not comparable and bringing it up serves no purpose and there were considerable protests against the invasion of Iraq but anyone who thinks the invasions were even remotely justified and uses this opportunity to whitewash western warcrimes is *words that would get me banned*
 
Mogget said:
So has Europe. So in that context, what's happening in Ukraine is just more of the same. Right?
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Europe didn't blame somebody else for all of our past troubles though, and it's been decades since there were any non-Soviet related fights within European borders.
 
Walrus said:
Re: No-fly zone. I maintain that given Russia/Putin refuses to acknowledge this as an invasion, and is arguing that it is focused on the Donbas region, he 'shouldnt' care or be affect by a no-fly zone around Kyiv and Western Ukraine.

What does he say? A bunch of Russian jets were shot down over Kyiv by NATO. If I am Russian I am asking why we had jets over Kyiv. It will force him to admit the scale of the 'operation' if nothing else.
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You cant trap someone in his words, who has no honesty or good faith in him. Putin would just come up with new lies. And by this point I doubt that anyone with access to the internet still genuinely believes that this is a surgical operation.
 
Walrus said:
Yeah, but the more we put him on the back foot and force him to come out with these ridiculous statements, the more pressure it puts on him domestically and abroad, and the more countries around the world might start to question his rationality and use as an ally.
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He’s been talking absolute shite for decades. Russians are either used to it or won’t challenge (doubt I would to be fair).

Other countries have known he’s been talking shite for decades and know he’s irrational/delusional.
 
If it was me I'd have a hard time resisting in shelling that convoy. Call Putins bluff. He's been calling the shots for too long for it to stop at Ukraine.
 
11101 said:
In a close in dogfight. Pilots who graduated from 4.5 gen fighters always say the sensor fusion on the F35 gives it a big advantage over them despite it's lower performance stats, and forgetting the stealth element.
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Maybe. But as you will know, dogfighting is not a standard role nowadays. Both carry BVR missiles and both have AESA radar.
 
the_cliff said:
I think the UK has definitely been one of the frontrunners in imposing sanctions here. I don't get what else people want the gov to do. Barring actual deployment I think they've done basically nearly everything possible.
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Agreed, and much more proactively rather than the very reactive EU
 
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