Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

TwoSheds said:
I wouldn't stop this war. :confused: You can't put the genie back in the bottle now. Somebody has to win once both sides have had to fully commit.

Letting other countries into NATO will do basically nothing to stop this war, that's not why it's happening.
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Sorry mate. I missunderstood your earlier post. I thought you were asking to stop the war at this point (so letting russia win what they've won)
 
NotThatSoph said:
I don't think it's very dismissive when we're adding Finland to a group of 30 countries, a lot of them with more resources. As I said, Finland has a military budget 0.3 % the size of NATO as a whole. Their budget is around the same as Portugal's, and the smallest of all the Nordics except Iceland.
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They’re strengthening NATO where it needs it. Sometimes raw numbers don’t tell the whole story.
 
Back on topic. Please use the Geopolitics thread for Finland and NATO chat.
 
VorZakone said:
Why are they doing this? And surely this requires massive logistics?
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This is right out of the Soviet play book, the Soviet Union did this to all the areas it conquered during WW2. They do it so that the people will essentially lose their identity as ukrainians and become part of Russia. If those 1.6 million persons stand togheter in Ukraine they will give each other streanght and feel like they are Ukrainians and a part of Ukraine. But if they are scattered around Russia they will be alone and have no other choice than to become a part of Russia.
 
One of the supposed motives for Russia attacking Ukraine (as Putin says but nobody expect Russians and his fans believe him) was Ukraine possibly joining Nato. This attack will just push Ukraine to Nato even more, especially since they're receiving all that weapons from Nato countries.
 
the hea said:
This is right out of the Soviet play book, the Soviet Union did this to all the areas it conquered during WW2. They do it so that the people will essentially lose their identity as ukrainians and become part of Russia. If those 1.6 million persons stand togheter in Ukraine they will give each other streanght and feel like they are Ukrainians and a part of Ukraine. But if they are scattered around Russia they will be alone and have no other choice than to become a part of Russia.
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Isn’t it also to Russian up the conquered area? Say 10 years from now we will see election / independence results from the region that would be legitimate results simply because of ethnic genocide like this.
 
Simbo said:
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well actually ... probably a bit more complex than that

Due to the codes most Ukrainian bridges were designed for most probably it wouldn't work for an MLC 80 type vehicle which is kinda needed if you have a tank based advance ... you would actually have your own logistics routes set up for this and concentrate resource around them... as such you may want to cripple alternate routes that anybody else can use to flank you

Anyway what would I know Kinda a lot BTW

It is of course also consistent with a defensive positioning but my point is that its not conclusive in and of its self
 
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Real Name said:
One of the supposed motives for Russia attacking Ukraine (as Putin says but nobody expect Russians and his fans believe him) was Ukraine possibly joining Nato. This attack will just push Ukraine to Nato even more, especially since they're receiving all that weapons from Nato countries.
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Ukraine cannot join NATO if Ukraine does not exist.

It is now obvious that the real objective of this invasion is to erase Ukraine from the map and annex it to Russia. Everything else is just false justifications or lies.

That's why Russians do not care how many Ukrainians die, they don't care how much damage they inflict, they don't care what is the opinion of Ukrainians, and they definitely don't care about NATO or the West or anyone else. Their objective is very simple: to conquer.

It is old time imperialism. In past centuries, other countries may have joined the war by now, for example Poland or Japan, but nowadays they will not, because of the fear of nuclear weapons. This war is actually easy for Russia, compared to their other wars in the past 500 years, because they know that nobody will attack Russia itself. This is the wet dream of any imperialist: attack with impunity! If you win, you won new lands, if you lose, you are guaranteed not to lose any lands! This is the first war of this kind. America had a lot of wars in the past 60 years, but they never had the goal to annex new lands permanently.

Russians believe that if they conquer Ukraine, then sooner or later the West will accept the new reality and everything will return to normalcy, including trade, western companies etc. And of course, they know that NATO will never ever attack the Russian army directly, no matter what they do to Ukrainians. The Russians will escalate this as much as they want to, till they win this war, that's their plan.

I hope that Ukrainians can win, but it seems quite difficult against such a ruthless opponent. It seems to me that if Russians start losing on the battlefield, and I mean really losing serious ground, they will just escalate further, using chemical or tactical nuclear weapons. After all, what is the difference? They have already bombed civilians, shopping malls, they have deported millions of Ukrainians. They are already war criminals ... but nobody can arrest them. Will any further escalation make any difference? This is much worse than Afghanistan. They did not deport millions of people from Afghanistan to Siberia.
 
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frostbite said:
Ukraine cannot join NATO if Ukraine does not exist.

It is now obvious that the real objective of this invasion is to erase Ukraine from the map and annex it to Russia. Everything else is just false justifications or lies.

That's why Russians do not care how many Ukrainians die, they don't care how much damage they inflict, they don't care what is the opinion of Ukrainians, and they definitely don't care about NATO or the West or anyone else. Their objective is very simple: to conquer.

It is old time imperialism. In past centuries, other countries may have joined the war by now, for example Poland or Japan, but nowadays they will not, because of the fear of nuclear weapons. This war is actually easy for Russia, compared to their other wars in the past 500 years, because they know that nobody will attack Russia itself. This is the wet dream of any imperialist: attack with impunity! If you win, you won new lands, if you lose, you are guaranteed not to lose any lands! This is the first war of this kind. America had a lot of wars in the past 60 years, but they never had the goal to annex new lands permanently.

Russians believe that if they conquer Ukraine, then sooner or later the West will accept the new reality and everything will return to normalcy, including trade, western companies etc. And of course, they know that NATO will never ever attack the Russian army directly, no matter what they do to Ukrainians. The Russians will escalate this as much as they want to, till they win this war, that's their plan.

I hope that Ukrainians can win, but it seems quite difficult against such a ruthless opponent. It seems to me that if Russians start losing on the battlefield, and I mean really losing serious ground, they will just escalate further, using chemical or tactical nuclear weapons. After all, what is the difference? They have already bombed civilians, shopping malls, they have deported millions of Ukrainians. They are already war criminals ... but nobody can arrest them. Will any further escalation make any difference? This is much worse than Afghanistan. They did not deport millions of people from Afghanistan to Siberia.
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This is exactly what is happening, but I think what is inevitable, Russia won't stop at Ukraine, I mean as you say, there is no justification for this, also, this is not a war, a war would suggest that Ukraine or other countries would attack Russia, at the moment this seems unlikely.

This is nothing but a sad reflection that as long as Russia exists, they will do this again and again, I think they will attack a NATO country next, just to see the reaction. It seems they are goading the west and USA and UK to see when they decide to get involved. I mean, Russia is essentially cut off from a lot of the world now, they are trying to starve a large chunk of the world too, I mean where is the deterrent?

So I think sooner or later the west has to intervene and take a firm aggressive action against Russia. I know people fear the use of nuclear missiles but I'd rather take that risk than let Russia basically destroy the world slowly in other ways. There is no end goal of theirs, nothing to gain destroying Ukraine, so why shouldn't NATO now intervene and start dictating the terms. There is no resolution or peace to be had, Russia will keep on escalating, so I think world leaders need to prepare their nations for a chance of nuclear attacks as sooner or later it's going to come down to that.

In Putin's warped mind, he might just simply back down once the threat to his country happens. He'll respect that someone has stood up to him, right now, he can do as he pleases and nothing of sanctions or other measures have had any affect on him or Russia.
 
Rajma said:

Orcs.
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One of the more horrific scenes i've looked at. The mother uploaded a clip of them walking along the pavement in the sun like 30 mins beforehand... That foot is not attached to the rest of her :( Though she apparently made it to intensive care.
 
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Rajma said:

Orcs.
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Fecking animals.

maximus419 said:
So I think sooner or later the west has to intervene and take a firm aggressive action against Russia. I know people fear the use of nuclear missiles but I'd rather take that risk than let Russia basically destroy the world slowly in other ways. There is no end goal of theirs, nothing to gain destroying Ukraine, so why shouldn't NATO now intervene and start dictating the terms. There is no resolution or peace to be had, Russia will keep on escalating, so I think world leaders need to prepare their nations for a chance of nuclear attacks as sooner or later it's going to come down to that.

In Putin's warped mind, he might just simply back down once the threat to his country happens. He'll respect that someone has stood up to him, right now, he can do as he pleases and nothing of sanctions or other measures have had any affect on him or Russia.
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Indeed. It is a matter of grabbing the bigger end of the stick at the end of the day, and NATO will have to find a way to put Russia in a position to have the short end at best. For as long as United Russia still breathes as a political entity, there will be no peaceful resolution in sight anytime soon. Considering that those pirates are looting Ukraine and trying to reap money from selling the loot, the next step should be about finding a way to destroy all transportation modes they use to transfer that loot to other countries.
 
New footage from the battle of Hostomel on the first days of the war.
Quite telling how the war is going for Russia when they have to use video material from a completly failed operation in their propaganda.
 
VorZakone said:
Why are they doing this? And surely this requires massive logistics?
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Simbo said:
http://www.clovisinstitute.org/population-replacement-holodomor/

Old Soviet tactic. Ethnic cleansing/replacement, falls under the definition of genocide.

They will replace them with poor/desperate Russians.
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the hea said:
This is right out of the Soviet play book, the Soviet Union did this to all the areas it conquered during WW2. They do it so that the people will essentially lose their identity as ukrainians and become part of Russia. If those 1.6 million persons stand togheter in Ukraine they will give each other streanght and feel like they are Ukrainians and a part of Ukraine. But if they are scattered around Russia they will be alone and have no other choice than to become a part of Russia.
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I'd say you could find precedents in pre-Soviet Russian imperial history. The deportation/genocide of the Circassians in the 1860s surely fits this category.
 
Hope the Germans are enjoying their gas. Won’t someone think of the German industry!

A fecking terrible look to pump all that money into a terrorist state. No way to spin it now. Funding North Korea is less morally repugnant.
 
TMDaines said:
Hope the Germans are enjoying their gas. Won’t someone think of the German industry!

A fecking terrible look to pump all that money into a terrorist state. No way to spin it now. Funding North Korea is less morally repugnant.
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Why pick solely on Germany though? It's hardly fair to single them out, many countries rely on Russia for gas, oil etc. It's hardly going to help if we are going to take a pop at other countries, which only creates division, something Putin would use to cause more instability.

It's the aggression of Putin and his people that are at fault and them alone and the narrative must be the only thing we talk about and condemn.
 
TMDaines said:
Hope the Germans are enjoying their gas. Won’t someone think of the German industry!

A fecking terrible look to pump all that money into a terrorist state. No way to spin it now. Funding North Korea is less morally repugnant.
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They can't just on the fly impoverish themselves for a foreign war. Its the elected governments responsibility to serve its own citizens first. Germany can only gradually stop their reliance on oil and gas like a lot of countries in Europe. For countries without reliance easy its to swing their dicks and have a pop at Germany.
 
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Gehrman said:
They can't just on the fly impoverish themselves for a foreign war. Its the elected governments responsibility to serve its own citizens first. Germany can only gradually stop their reliance on oil and gas like a lot of countries in Europe. For countries without reliance its to swing their dicks and have a pop at Germany.
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Sensible post. We can't get out of the pickle we created for ourselves overnight. So if you want to criticise Germany, which is fair enough, do it for the last two decades of getting so overly reliant on Russian ressources, not for being unable to change the current situation over night
 
hellhunter said:
Sensible post. We can't get out of the pickle we created for ourselves overnight. So if you want to criticise Germany, which is fair enough, do it for the last two decades of getting so overly reliant on Russian ressources, not for being unable to change the current situation over night
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Germany definitely fecked up by closing it's nuclear power plants after fukushima. But for instance it's nothing new for western countries or any countries to get their oil from dodgy regime's and.... Norway
 
hellhunter said:
Sensible post. We can't get out of the pickle we created for ourselves overnight. So if you want to criticise Germany, which is fair enough, do it for the last two decades of getting so overly reliant on Russian ressources, not for being unable to change the current situation over night
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And during those two decades they strengthened their economy, had a lot of surplus budgets and made a lot of money, enjoying cheap gas. Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014, annexing Crimea. What was the response of Germany? Let's build Nord Stream 2 with our dear friend Putin, and make more money.
 
Horrible, horrible stuff. And it's just getting worse by the day.
They're just picking towns and cities by will, close to the frontline or not, pure terrorism. Vinntysa is in deep Ukraine, not so close to the frontline as I gather.
That's why I always laugh when I hear their propaganda they're precise with their bombing and if they bomb residential areas its cause Ukrainian forces are using buildings and houses as camp. Standard propaganda of an invading country with a criminal regime.
 
Gehrman said:
They can't just on the fly impoverish themselves for a foreign war. Its the elected governments responsibility to serve its own citizens first. Germany can only gradually stop their reliance on oil and gas like a lot of countries in Europe. For countries without reliance easy its to swing their dicks and have a pop at Germany.
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If Germany had any interest in getting less dependant on Russian energy or CO2 heavy energy resourses in general they could just keep their 3 remaining nuclear plants running insead of shutting them down by the end of the year. All of that energy will have to be replaced within 6 months and the only realistic way to do so is by burning more coal, oil and gas.
 
the hea said:
If Germany had any interest in getting less dependant on Russian energy or CO2 heavy energy resourses in general they could just keep their 3 remaining nuclear plants running insead of shutting them down by the end of the year. All of that energy will have to be replaced within 6 months and the only realistic way to do so is by burning more coal, oil and gas.
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I agree. Closing their nuclear power plants was always a stupid decision. I mentioned that above.
 
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