Ros Atkins on the Azov Battalion:
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
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What's the point of this hypothetical? Or do you think that U.S.A. would be justified in, say, invading Mexico if China's influence on it would outgrow that of United States?
Also, what exactly are Putin/Russia supposed to fear, NATO's invasion? M.A.D. is still very much a thing, and it's one of the reasons that on the ground Ukraine still fights this war alone, even though with a ton of support from the NATO states.
Oh that ol chestnut, the invasion of Ukraine justifies every single one of them nations joining.
Do you really fecking think Estonia would still be standing if it hadn't joined?
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?
https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html
Russia's long history of neo-Nazis
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4
German neo-Nazis trained at Russian camps: report
From 2020: https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazis-trained-at-russian-camps-report/a-53692907
'Denazification'? Neo-Nazi Groups Fighting Alongside Russian Forces in Ukraine
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...-ukraine/00000180-fcb7-d338-a3d0-feb763f30000
If anyone thinks I am being selective, here is a piece from May 2022 detailing the growing threat of the far-right in the UK:
Far-right conspiracy theories are now embedded in the UK mainstream
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/far-right-mainstream-conspiracy-theory-uk/
Takeaway quote:
The UK has experienced more far-right terror attacks and plots than any state in Europe. Around a third of domestic terror threats now come from the far Right, according to the head of MI5, who also said that children as young as 13 are being recruited by far-right extremists.
Recent incidents include a teenage neo-Nazi caught plotting attacks on synagogues; a four-person cell using a 3D printer to make firearm components; and a man who rampaged through Stanwell, Surrey, attacking cars and shouting “white supremacists rule. I’m going to murder a Muslim”, before stabbing a Bulgarian teenager.
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I don't think I have heard of a European country that doesn't have a far-right operating within it. The UK has plenty of neo-nazis. It should all be combatted and stamped out.
None of that, or the existence of the far-right in Ukraine, changes the realities or underlying reasons for the illegal invasion, or the horrific acts which have been perpetrated by some Russian soldiers.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html
Russia's long history of neo-Nazis
https://www.latrobe.edu.au/news/articles/2022/opinion/russias-long-history-of-neo-nazis4
German neo-Nazis trained at Russian camps: report
From 2020: https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-nazis-trained-at-russian-camps-report/a-53692907
'Denazification'? Neo-Nazi Groups Fighting Alongside Russian Forces in Ukraine
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/...-ukraine/00000180-fcb7-d338-a3d0-feb763f30000
If anyone thinks I am being selective, here is a piece from May 2022 detailing the growing threat of the far-right in the UK:
Far-right conspiracy theories are now embedded in the UK mainstream
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/far-right-mainstream-conspiracy-theory-uk/
Takeaway quote:
The UK has experienced more far-right terror attacks and plots than any state in Europe. Around a third of domestic terror threats now come from the far Right, according to the head of MI5, who also said that children as young as 13 are being recruited by far-right extremists.
Recent incidents include a teenage neo-Nazi caught plotting attacks on synagogues; a four-person cell using a 3D printer to make firearm components; and a man who rampaged through Stanwell, Surrey, attacking cars and shouting “white supremacists rule. I’m going to murder a Muslim”, before stabbing a Bulgarian teenager.
----
I don't think I have heard of a European country that doesn't have a far-right operating within it. The UK has plenty of neo-nazis. It should all be combatted and stamped out.
None of that, or the existence of the far-right in Ukraine, changes the realities or underlying reasons for the illegal invasion, or the horrific acts which have been perpetrated by some Russian soldiers.
I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.
"At least we don't dehumanize our opponents by calling them orcs" - a Russian redcafe poster.
No you dehumanize them all by calling them all Nazis.
You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,
Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.
Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.
If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.
Yes, plenty of similar reports over the past eight years. As Atkins notes, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and there are far-right soldiers in the Ukrainian military.
Here's a report from TIME in January 2021:
And one from The Guardian in 2017:
You come here making excuses for the Russian atrocities commited in Ukraine but have no interest in debating it when getting called out. OK.
I already answered this question. They joined because due to their history, they knew exactly what Russia is, and they where proven right.
Never set foot in the U.S. but I would love to visit there one day as it seems a great country.
Nazism should never ever be whitewashed, even if it's fighting murdering cnuts like Putin. I have no sympathy for any Nazis dying in the Azov battalion.
Such a fecking stupid debate about the men and women putting themselves first in line to fight against the living modern embodiment of Hitler's nazi germany.
Any measures the Ukrainian state take against the far-right in their country should be supported and encouraged. No one is apologising for Nazism.
As the BBC report shows, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and the Azov Battalion from 2014 is not the same as the one fighting in 2022.
The openly racist leader left in 2015 to found a political party which won very few votes. The Azov leader at the start of the invasion is Jewish, and they had Tatars, Russians and Jewish soldiers fighting under it.
“Azov’s history is rooted in a volunteer battalion formed by the leadership of a neo-Nazi group. But it is certain that Azov has depoliticised itself,” said Anton Shekhovtsov, a Vienna-based Ukrainian expert on Russia’s connections to Europe’s far-right. “Its history linked to the far-right movement is pretty irrelevant today.”
https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/...ttalion-means-we-are-falling-into-putins-trap
https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/
There are some neo-Nazis in Ukraine. There were also al-Qaeda members in Syria. Neither is a justification for Russia's atrocities, which is what the Kremlin are doing when they keep invoking Ukrainian Nazis.
As Oz Katerji said in April in the New Statesman article:
As the BBC report shows, there is a far-right in Ukraine, and the Azov Battalion from 2014 is not the same as the one fighting in 2022.
The openly racist leader left in 2015 to found a political party which won very few votes. The Azov leader at the start of the invasion is Jewish, and they had Tatars, Russians and Jewish soldiers fighting under it.
“Azov’s history is rooted in a volunteer battalion formed by the leadership of a neo-Nazi group. But it is certain that Azov has depoliticised itself,” said Anton Shekhovtsov, a Vienna-based Ukrainian expert on Russia’s connections to Europe’s far-right. “Its history linked to the far-right movement is pretty irrelevant today.”
https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/...ttalion-means-we-are-falling-into-putins-trap
https://www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...ol-what-is-ukraines-azov-regiment-2022-05-17/
There are some neo-Nazis in Ukraine. There were also al-Qaeda members in Syria. Neither is a justification for Russia's atrocities, which is what the Kremlin are doing when they keep invoking Ukrainian Nazis.
As Oz Katerji said in April in the New Statesman article:
Back to news:
More weapons:
Not joining and having Russia invade you.
1. There's a hell of a lot more evidence of Russian war crimes than there is Ukrainian.
2. Ukrainians are an ethnic group. But even if they weren't I'm sure all the civilians would be really heartened to know that they're not dying painfully and having their homes and livelihoods destroyed as part of a campaign to wipe them out, but just because reasons.
3. They joined NATO because they didn't want to get invaded by fascists. And they haven't.
4. I'm sure you're not being dishonest but you should really consider whether you might be wilfully ignorant.
I wouldn't be surprised if Russia is actively trying to "tempt" Ukrainians into committing war crimes of their own. The goal would be for Ukraine to lose PR points and maybe even result in foreign aid getting canceled.
this thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.
every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.
are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.
what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.
i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.
every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.
are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.
what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.
i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.
feck that putain rat
Russia and Ukraine are not in a similar position. It is Russia who invaded Ukraine, while Ukraine did absolutely nothing against Russia. Not before the war, and not now.
For example, if someone invades your home trying to kill you, any court of law will not see in the same light your actions and the invader's actions.
yeah. thought it was worth pointing out though. this thread can be good if there's people posting news updates. it can be crap if it's just the same old arguments. i visit it infrequently anyway so just ignore last comment.
To be fair, I get what you’re saying, and I agree. The same arguments pop up in between updates and it’s like “damn, didn’t we just talk about this?”
But also… I can’t ignore threads
Can anyone see this ending in anything other than WW3?
Yeah, tons of people.
I fully understand, that for someone not involved in this conflict and with no history of dealing with the Russians, reading the same arguments can get old pretty fast. But for us who live close to Russia and who have a history of Russian aggression, standing up for the Ukrainians feels very important. For me personally I can say that both my grandfathers fought against Russian invaders. One lost his brother, and the other got severly injured and although he survived the war, he died long before I was born due to the injuries from the war. My grandfather from my mothers side who lived long enough to meet me never talked much about the war, but one thing he always told me was, the reason why every man in the country took up weapons and fought off the Russian invaders was because of their children. They wanted them to have the opportunity to decide the future of our country and not some tsar in Moscow.
80 years later this is exactly what is happening in Ukraine right now, in 2014 the Ukrainian people revolted and said that they wanted no more of the corrupt Russian influenced leadership, they wanted a free democracy where the people themself can decide the future of their country and not some self proclaimd tsar in Moscov.
I’m not talking nuclear, but I can’t see how this gets resolved. Just throwing it out there as a discussion point.
Russian army gets defeated, Russian people turn on Putin because the Russian people never accepts a weak leader. After that no one knows.
yep, mostly just me looking for news update and seeing nazi, nato, warcrimes, and everything else being reinvented for the 1000th time.To be fair, I get what you’re saying, and I agree. The same arguments pop up in between updates and it’s like “damn, didn’t we just talk about this?”
But also… I can’t ignore threads
i understand your position. not a dig at you personally. or anyone. just feel like we've done all these arguments. the nato side was spoken about. the russian side was spoken about. the separatist thing, the reaction to it. i think it's the lull between updates and the occasional poster who doesn't seem to post often reprising something i've read about 500 pages ago.
my own view is more cynical than most people's in this thread. that's why i usually just scan it. was only boredom that made me post!
Who is fighting in a non-nuclear “WW3”?
Don’t tread into the FDJ thread then!
This is constantly the worst and least knowledgeable poster in this thread.
Same reason most countries have joined NATO or want to join NATO they don't want to get invaded by Russia.
That question must be a real headache for him at the moment.
Hope so as it was a stupid fecking question.
I hope there is competent mental health institutions in your country, go log off and get help ASAP. We are all rooting for you and Ukraine to destroy the Orcs. UwU