But it’s Spurs.
Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch
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But it’s Spurs.
Given where they have been since, it could be argued they only had a hope at those trophies because of Pochettino.
That's obvious. But that also isn't a particularly high hurdle to reach. If you don't manage that as a top coach you would expect to be sacked. It's nothing unusual or a particularly high demand for Pochettino to improve on that.
They had 3 managers but one was sacked because he wasn't a good diplomat, not so much based on sporting achievement, one in Potter was retained well beyond the point that most reasonable observers thought he was capable of reversing, and another was a caretaker that was also kept despite abysmal performance. The most interesting for me among that is the Potter case because they chose Potter and I thought they gave him every opportunity (at least within modern football terms) to change the situation. It wasn't particularly trigger happy, he was just highly out of his depth.
For about five years they had arguably the best team in the league. We can all joke about it being spurs but they should have won something. We won trophies during that period and we sucked. He only got to two finals with that team which is a shambles.
They haven't spent well which is why they have gone downhill. That and Levy's refusal to sell players and refresh the squad. They also went after Conte and Mourinho post Poch who were both not the right fits.
And they had summers where they didn’t buy at all under Pochettino. I know his star has lost some of it’s shine but he obviously did an excellent job at Spurs and raised expectations of what they were capable of.
Chelsea has the weakest squad beside Newcastle in the current top 6 and finished 12th last season with this squad that is why. However, that could change if chelsea board spends on top players.
dortmund and Brighton are tough opponent as well, and other top team has loss/drawn to team with the same or less quality.
@Corinthian
United fan of course.
Not excuses when most Chelsea fan agreed and even neutral fans/pundits. Pochettino hasn't gotten a top signing/properly backed this summer. Only Jackson arrived and even though he is doing well in preseason he wasn't an established top player. Diasi was also bought because fofana was injured. Neither are world renowned top players.
They will expect trophies but it doesn't mean Boehly and the like are incapable of reason and will demand league titles tomorrow. That was the old expectation but that was also an expectation under previous owners that looked at football completely differently. They bought ready made players and continued to refresh the management to motivate them. Under this structure you need somebody to coach improvement to the base skills of the players and their personalities so the set of goals for a manager do look a little different. It has to alight upon winning, but not neccessarily with the same immediacy.
I don't think Todd Boehly lacks nuance within his thinking. He came in like a bull in a China shop in the market but I doubt he lacks the critical thought to realise that when you shape a strategy almost exclusively around young, unproven players then it may take a period to build. If he didn't know that to begin with then he probably does now, and he'll also have seen the standards other teams set, in both league and cup competitions. So I don't think he's getting sacked for not winning major honours next season, I think the natural starting point is to massively improve on last season's league performance and to start looking like a team. That's just my conjecture, who really knows what set of goals he signed up to, but if there was a demand on him to win major competitions next season I think he'd have a hard time signing up to it as it doesn't make any sense.
Spurs have been a decent side that should have been in the discussion for trophies since about 2009, particularly the domestic cups and the seasons they've spent in the Europa League.
The reason they're laughed at so much for not winning anything is precisely because they've clearly had good enough squads and managers to bring home a trophy, yet have consistently failed to do so. If they don't randomly shit the bed against lesser opposition, they're pretty much nailed on to do it as soon as they face a good side, and Pochettino dined out on 'nearly' winning things for his entire time there.
First season at Spurs he faced a bunch of shit teams to get to the League Cup final, then bottled it against Chelsea, got knocked out of the FA Cup by a Leicester side that had the longest winless run in the league that season (after taking the lead), and got knocked out of the Europa League in the first knockout round by a mediocre Fiorentina side.
Second season they famously contrived to finish third in a two horse race for the title, got knocked out of the FA Cup at home to Palace (although they did knock Leicester out), got knocked of the League Cup at home to Arsenal, and got battered in the Europa League by Dortmund.
Third season they finished league runners up, played nobody of note in the FA Cup before losing to Chelsea in the semis, lost to Liverpool in the League Cup, and finished behind Monaco and Bayer Leverkusen in the Champions League before losing to Gent in their first Europa League game.
Fourth season they had a piss-easy FA Cup run before getting beaten by United in the semis (after leading), knocked out of the League Cup at home to West Ham, did well to top a Champions League group containing Real Madrid and Dortmund, but shat it in the first knockout round against Juventus (after leading).
It was only in his final full season that they actually pulled off some impressive cup results, but even they ended with them throwing away a first leg lead over Chelsea in the League Cup semi and putting in an absolute damp squib of a performance against Liverpool in the Champions League final.
After that, expectations were well and truly set, and he couldn't handle it, so he got sacked (after guiding Spurs out of the League Cup against Colchester and shipping seven goals at home to Bayern).
The only times in his tenure that could even be possibly argued with a straight face were his second and third season's and they got to that point in the first place due to his coaching.
His squad quality wise was nowhere near Arsenal let alone City and Chelsea in 14/15 and from 17/18 onwards the City and shortly after Liverpool super teams came along (he actually kept pace with them for half of 18/19 until Levy's lack of investment finally caught up).
While I don't disagree he should have found a way over the line once or twice it's absolutely false he had the best team for his entire tenure, they were only in the argument for two of them.
If Poch joined United it'd be like crossing streams. Who knows what would happen.
GK:
- Kepa
- Sanchez
- Bettinelli
DEF:
- Silva
- Colwill
- Disasi
- Badiashile
- Chalobah
- Fofana
- James
- Gusto
- Chilwell
- Cucurella
- Maatsen (can also play further up)
MID:
- Enzo
- Santos
- Gallagher
- Chukwuemeka
ATT:
- Nkunku
- Jackson
- Broja
- Mudryk
- Sterling
- Madueke
Who I didn't include on the squad list were the youngsters Casadei, Hall, Humphreys, Ugochukwu, Angelo, Moreira and Burstow who are no doubt heading for loans away. Once the Sanchez signing is finalized the same goes for every youth goalkeeper we had with the squad for pre-season.
So yeah that's basically our squad after the Sanchez & Disasi signings are confirmed by the club. That's a total of 23 players + Fofana who won't be fit again for at least another nine months so will more or less be out of the discussion for this season.
What happens next:
- Chalobah will 100% leave either on a permanent transfer or on loan, no place for him in the team after Disasi. Talks are already said to be ongoing with Inter.
- If the Vlahovic/Lukaku swap happens then Broja will definitely be going out on loan. He's not played a single minute of football for 9 months and only just recovering from ACL injury so he needs regular games to get back to fitness which won't happen if we sign another striker. So if something happens with Vlahovic it's going to be 1 in 1 out.
- We will no doubt sign a new defensive midfielder. If it's not Caicedo then it's a cheaper, crappier alternative. Either way one more will join.
- Gallagher could be sold. Don't think he will but it's a possibility.
- We may sign Kudus/Olise to provide more depth and options for ACM/RW positions. Could be dependent on Gallagher situation?
So yeah after the Sanchez and Disasi signings we're probably still looking at 1-3 new signings as well as 1-3 outgoings. At this point the squad won't get any bigger, if new players arrive then some will also leave to balance things out. So going into the season our squad will very likely be 23-24 players and Fofana. That's a big difference to 32-33 players last season.
Title needs to be snappier:
Poch watch.
Poch watch.
No it’s just pochs mom
Spurs had a good first team, not a good squad. Their bench was mostly academy players and nobodies, no real squad depth. Spurs priorities were always staying in Europe, when the cup competitions rolled around Spurs would play their second string and kids to give the first team a rest and invariably lose.
Id suspect that mandate came from Levy or the board, 1st priority stay in Europe, second priority, stay in Europe. Levy is all about the money and the CL is a cash cow.
Ange will do a better job than Poch
Yep excuses in early same as it ever was that poster. His WUM routine of supporting Poch and is well worn out that this stage.
I think you'll finish above Arsenal and it'll be between Chelsea and United for second place personally.
I think Chelsea fans seem to be underestimating the strength of your squad, for me it's a really strong team. The only place really not strong enough is goal keeper for me.
Arsenal will no doubt be expecting another title challenge but I don't see it happening, but you never know!
What do you think Poch should be targeting?
Fair enough. I hear you. I don't think I would go quite that far in having us above Arsenal, but you never know. I think what most of us are thinking is, yes it's a talented squad but it's also a nearly brand new group of players. Nkunku, Jackson, Maatsen, Colwill, Gusto, Santos, Disasi have all joined the team for the first time, and then you have Enzo, Mudryk, Badiashile etc who are only 6 months in. Sterling and Cucurella are one of the longest serving members of the squad now at 12 months
I also think it's fairly normal for fans to play down expectations in case the team doesn't live up to the hype. I know Arsenal fans were at it during the season, so I think there's probably a bit of that going on too.
Poch has said the aim is to compete for the title. I think a top 5 finish is a good expectation to set for now. What I'm hoping for is that we take the league by storm and actually compete for the title.
Champ is a poor poster and has a huge dislike for Pochettino. He just saying second because he knows that such a placement is unachievable with this chelsea squad and when that doesn't happen he will say Pochettino failed. Every reasonable poster says chelsea should finish around 5th or 4th. That should be this chelsea squad aim especially if they bring in better talents for the first team.Fair enough. I hear you. I don't think I would go quite that far in having us above Arsenal, but you never know. I think what most of us are thinking is, yes it's a talented squad but it's also a nearly brand new group of players. Nkunku, Jackson, Maatsen, Colwill, Gusto, Santos, Disasi have all joined the team for the first time, and then you have Enzo, Mudryk, Badiashile etc who are only 6 months in. Sterling and Cucurella are one of the longest serving members of the squad now at 12 months
I also think it's fairly normal for fans to play down expectations in case the team doesn't live up to the hype. I know Arsenal fans were at it during the season, so I think there's probably a bit of that going on too.
Poch has said the aim is to compete for the title. I think a top 5 finish is a good expectation to set for now. What I'm hoping for is that we take the league by storm and actually compete for the title.
Strictly on paper right now, I'd say that both Manchester clubs and Arsenal are better than Chelsea and the Scousers are about as good as they are. The likes of Spurs and Newcastle are clearly worse than all of the above. If Chelsea finalise the Caicedo signing, then they are probably a better side than the Scousers and if they sign Olise on top of this then they may well be the second best side in England.
If the transfer window closed right now, I would expect Chelsea to finish top 4, and if they finished top 2, I would say that they would have exceeded expectations.
However, Caicedo and Olise would mean that they should get top 3 at a minimum.
If the transfer window closed right now, I would expect Chelsea to finish top 4, and if they finished top 2, I would say that they would have exceeded expectations.
However, Caicedo and Olise would mean that they should get top 3 at a minimum.
hate to defend him because of the poster, but there's a difference between "nearly" winning a league cup (Jose) and nearly winning the CL (Poch) and sortof maybe kindof challenging for the league (also Poch).
Even when they did win their last trophy (08 league cup), their league performances were much worse than Pochetinno's, and they didn't reach the CL, let alone the final.
I'm not sure that refutes my point. He did very well improving their overall standing in the league, but he only ever got "close" to winning anything.
He's a manager that can't cope with expectation. It was fine at Spurs when they were flattering to deceive reaching the latter stages of the domestic cups on occasion but shiting it as soon as they played a decent side, or when they sort-of-but-not-really found themselves challenging for the league, but the run to the Champions League final cemented the expectation that they actually made that final step and won something.
This is what I meant by him dining out on it. He raised their profile, and his own, based on not quite winning. He had a winner's reputation without actually being a winner. He couldn't cope with the expectations after reaching the Champions League final and he couldn't cope with the expectations at PSG.
What Jose or anyone else has (or hasn't) done isn't really relevant.
Caicedo and olise would mean that a top 3 should be their minimum requirements if none of their main players get injured. One injury to either Caceido or Enzo and their midfield is back to being what it is and Pochettino will have to play the kids. These signing improve their first 11, but not their squad depth. They also have to get the signing right. I have seen a lot of chelsea fan saying they would want kudus, but olise seems more accomplished in the league, whereas kudus seems to have more potential. One of these player could be the different between making a good push in the top four, while the other could just do the bare minimum required of him and make Chelsea team crawl into a champion league place
Is it actually a thing that people are arguing Poch hasn't been backed? He took this job knowing full well that £600m had been spent on the squad in the last 9 months.
Connor Gallaher is hardly a kid. He's 23 and has played a hundred games in the PL. They've also got Ugochukwu who they just bought for a fair bit and Chukwuemeka who's supposed to be a big talent. Both young of course but Hojlund isn't much older and will be leading the line for ten Hag.
I think you’re underestimating the Chelsea squad. I rate Poch, I think this setup (young team, lots of fast technical players without superstar egos) is going to suit him well. You also have a good GK now.
I think you’ll be right up and top 4 will be very tight.
(No I’m not saying this because I secretly think Poch will get 7th)
he’s united through and through. we had a bit of private back and forth a few weeks back and i posed the exact same question to him, probing him expertly on united. here’s some extracts from our conversation-
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If they don't get top four, at the very best he'll be on extremely thin ice. They spent £600 million on players last season, and have continued to bring in even more this summer. He's going to be expected to hit the ground running, and I think you're dreaming if "moving towards top four" is going to be anything but the absolute minimum expected of him. He'll be gone this season if they're not still in the hunt for top four come the run-in.
Tuchel was given six games (plus one CL) before he was sacked. Potter was clearly out of his depth, but he came in with a bloated squad to manage and an immediate expectation to turn things around and secure them top four. He was given more time than they'd perhaps have liked to afford him once it was clear he wasnt going to do that, but considering they didn't have a replacement lined up and the season was effectively gone, I can see why they tried to at least give him a bit of time to string some results together. Lampard was basically there as window dressing because they needed someone in the manager role to see out the season.
Pochettino is a manager with a track record of wilting under expectations and I fully expect this to unravel fairly quickly.
Ugo, may be going on loan, plus he is a kid, just 19 i believe. chukwuemeka is still a kid as only 19, even though he as potential. Gallagher isn't an 6 or 5 in a double pivot, but it seems like he has been tasked to adapt to that role. Moreover, there is a question mark if he is staying or being sold. Santos is also a kid as well and he has been their standout number 6 or 5 in pre-season I believe. I admit, Chelsea do have some impressive kids, but they need experience and there is an imbalance in terms of experience as Pochettino said in that team. Even though Gallagher looked decent in the double pivot against dortmund, I do not believe chelsea is a stronger team if he starts with either Caceido or Enzo. He did impress me against dortmund and Pochettino could do wonders to him, but from what I see, chelsea would benefit more from letting Gallagher leave and get a natural number 6 or 5 with experience in either lavia, Adam or Paulhina to play that backup role.
Caceido/lavia - enzo/Santos
Seems more balanced than having Gallagher play a role that he has to adapt to. But once again, he could be one of the experiment that Pochettino is working on that shows that he could do an excellent job in that double pivot.
I believe chelsea squad has a good group young players, but they are lacking numerous world class talent that are the difference between getting a champion league place or a europa league place. Looking at this chelsea squad, they dont have a de bryune, a salah, a Rashford, a haaland, a saka, e.g., a player that will push them towards that finish line singlehandedly. Even though this squad definitely suits Pochettino, they have lots of raw players with massive potential. None of these players have shown to have reach those potential yet, maybe beside enzo and james who are their only world class talents that has not past their prime. But their influence wont be seen in the area that matters the most, which is in the attack. Nkunku, Mudryk and Chilwell are close to breaking that ceiling and for chelsea to be successful this season, they will have to break it. In particular nkunku and Mudryk who could be those difference makers. However, at the moment, they are not world class talent that other top teams in the league have. So, I m not underestimating chelsea squad, just being realistic.
Edit: I m not forgetting about Jackson, he could have a breakout season and transform immediately into one of the top strikers in the league.
@rimaldo
I do not know what is wrong about admiring one of the best managers in football, while still be a united supporter.
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Brilliant!
Were the Arsenal fans that were playing down their chances not just being realistic and were ultimately proven to be right to?
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FFS rim
Did he? He only surpassed AVB's points total twice. With a better team as well. Can't even really say he got them deeper into competitions either, because they reached two finals. One in his first season, and one in his last full season.
They had a phenomenal first team. To act otherwise is revisionist at best. If their priority was the league, why did he only surpass AVB's 72 points twice?
You genuinely believe his team wasn't better than Arsenal's? As I stated earlier, that's total revisionism. They had a phenomenal 11, with Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen, Rose, Chadli was good in 14/15, Bentaleb was good, Dembele, Dier, Kane, etc. And then the next year they added Alli, Son, and Alderweireld. To act like that wasn't one of the best teams in the league is ludicrous.
You said arguably the best, even if we take out Arsenal they were absolutely not in the conversation with Jose's Chelsea title winners or the City side with Yaya still in his peak or then any of Pep or Klopp's teams from 2017 and 2018 onwards respectively.
And in 14/15 they still had the likes of Kaboul, Adebayor and Lennon hanging around like a bad smell, they may have had some talented parts but the overall squad dynamics was so rotten the manager lost the plot at them all on national TV. Also many of those players came what they are thanks to his coaching, for example I remember thinking Vertonghen looked absolutely retched in his early period in this league, even our version of Torres had him tripping over himself.
Just so I don't get mistaken for a certain someone I repeat he should defiently have won something with them but I think you're overestimating what he inherited and especially what he was left with after Levy's lack of investment started to bite.
They were definitely one of the best teams. You could argue not the best but they weren't far off at the very least. Vertonghen looked poorish his first season in the league, mostly because it was his first season but also he was played on the left quite a bit. Lloris also looked dreadful that first season (2013-2014). In 2014/15 which was Poch's first season Lennon was on loan to Everton, Kaboul barely played, neither did Adebayor. You could say Soldado sucked though and he was their big name striker.
No doubt, he should have won at least a league cup but he never did. Even more he should have won a league title with them. Only got to two finals, one in his first season and one in his last full season. He inherited Eriksen, Dembele, Vertonghen, Walker, Rose, Lloris, Chadli (was only good in 2014/15 mind). To say they only had some talented parts is false. He also had a burgeoning Kane coming through.
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