Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

moses said:
I'm not sure it's an argument, just a discussion on the material impact of social media and whether it actually changes the narrative or just speeds it up. I don't see how that is what you were referring to when you said "When something happens, something truly awful, people lurch to social media and use it as their media ammo to back up a point of view. They are so fecking detached from the reality of violence being actual life, and instead fire it from their cannon to backup a politidal viewpoint"

I still reckon an explosion at a hospital may have been the subject of many phone calls without Twitter.

Peace talks have been cancelled at the 11th hour before. We didn't move straifht from carrier pigeon to Twitter.
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Don’t you think the tail is wagging the dog in the way it never could before? The mainstream journalists are all on Twitter. So when you see self appointed “missile noise experts” (a few of whom are members of redcafe) confidently declaring that the hospital bomb was definitely preceded by the unique sonic footprint of an Israeli bomb then that will influence the media narrative. Which in turn, can influence political decisions. Which wouldn’t have happened when journalists had to check with more trustworthy sources to fact check before going to press.

And that’s all assuming that mainstream media are even still relevant! At this stage you really only need a shift in the public consensus on social media to have real life effects. Politicians get influenced by that narrative. Citizens take to the streets, embassies get attacked, hate crimes happen etc etc
 
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moses said:
I'm not sure it's an argument, just a discussion on the material impact of social media and whether it actually changes the narrative or just speeds it up. I don't see how that is what you were referring to when you said "When something happens, something truly awful, people lurch to social media and use it as their media ammo to back up a point of view. They are so fecking detached from the reality of violence being actual life, and instead fire it from their cannon to backup a politidal viewpoint"

I still reckon an explosion at a hospital may have been the subject of many phone calls without Twitter.

Peace talks have been cancelled at the 11th hour before. We didn't move straifht from carrier pigeon to Twitter.
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Something awful happens like the hospital attack

People use it in social cannons to ferment hatred, posting, reposting, using it as evidence for how bad the IDF are. They amplify how terrible it was, use hamas casualty numbers, and ferment hatred

In this instance, that hate led to mass social disorder, attacks on embassies, and the cancellation of diplomacy as a result of that disorder. It without doubt changed the narrative, because if you’d have waited just 12 hours, 95% of the people wouldn’t have used that media, which was particularly egregious.

new evidence comes to light, people say “well ok, but look at this next incident, Israel are still bad” - first incident is now unimport as it doesn’t drive home the view . Or they double down and continue

the next incident is the same, only useful to them insofar that it backs up a point they want to make.
 
Although still a lot of confusion, somethings are becoming clearer, you have two entities both believing they are entering some kind of 'end game', both believing their strategies will prove successful, both have to be wrong.

Hamas do not just want to see the destruction of the State of Israel, what they want is to drive all Jews into the sea. The current Israeli government doesn't just want revenge on Hamas, it wants to see the end of Hamas permanently and drive all Palestinians out of Gaza, first from the north to the south, then into Egypt, then they will lay waste to Gaza and eventually believe re-populate with their own settlers.

Somehow the rest of the world has to stop this madness, but how?
It seems that the popular perception is that Iran is the only Arab nation that can control/influence Hamas/Hezbollah and the USA the only one to control/influence Israel, but if both these two countries get drawn into coming in 'swinging' then things look dark indeed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Don’t you think the tail is wagging the dog in the way it never could before? The mainstream journalists are all on Twitter. So when you see self appointed “missile noise experts” (a few of whom are members of redcafe) confidently declaring that the hospital bomb was definitely preceded by the unique sonic footprint of an Israeli bomb then that will influence the media narrative. Which in turn, can influence political decisions. Which wouldn’t have happened when journalists had to check with more trustworthy sources to fact check before going to press.
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Somebody posted a good thread here the other day about how mainstream media are stuck in an old cycle of relying on human sources and not utilising osint. Not sure if it was you who posted it, but it was good. They (and politicians on twitter) definitely amplified this by going to press “first” with their quick announcements which legitimised the mob. But I feel it would have been bad even if the media hasn’t, as people like rashida tlaib and the Hamas disinfor bots etc would have pushed it. In elons twitter world, that’s super fine.
 
Drainy said:
To my understanding, and correct me if my understanding is wrong, but the context of the British decision to split the land being that the population of Jews was substantial and conflict was anticipated. Including the increase in Zionist terrorism, but also attitudes towards Jews from the people.

They went to the UN for an agreed outcome. They divided the land, and proposed an administrated zone in Jerusalem. The UN resolution passed. The Jews agreed, the Arabs didn't, war broke out and it's been a cycle ever since.
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I see the discussion has moved on but just wanted to clarify this - the British never decided to split the land, although partition was considered by them and recommended by the Peel Commission of 1937. British policy wavered, ebbed and flowed in accordance with the demands of British imperial interests during the three decades of British rule in Palestine, and it was this understanding of where those interests lay in 1947 that led them to essentially washing their hands of the debacle they had to a large degree helped create, and hand responsibility to the UN.

I say this because people often get a bit confused over the role of the British, with some seemingly believing their policy was dictated by Zionism or Arab nationalism, depending on the period in question. And certainly on an individual level members of the British administration in Palestine could be partial to the claims of one or the other. But ultimately British policy reflected imperial interests, which could not incorporate the nationalist agendas they were forced to accommodate to one degree or the other.
 
Drizzle said:
I dont get why you don't?

Hamas was the de facto govt of Gaza and directly responsible for the murder of 1400 people.

Hamas is the one feeding most of the information out from Gaza.

Why are they exempt from scrutiny?
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Who controls the West Bank?
 
owlo said:
Something awful happens like the hospital attack

People use it in social cannons to ferment hatred, posting, reposting, using it as evidence for how bad the IDF are. They amplify how terrible it was, use hamas casualty numbers, and ferment hatred

In this instance, that hate led to mass social disorder, attacks on embassies, and the cancellation of diplomacy as a result of that disorder. It without doubt changed the narrative, because if you’d have waited just 12 hours, 95% of the people wouldn’t have used that media, which was particularly egregious.

new evidence comes to light, people say “well ok, but look at this next incident, Israel are still bad” - first incident is now unimport as it doesn’t drive home the view . Or they double down and continue

the next incident is the same, only useful to them insofar that it backs up a point they want to make.
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I'm not sure I agree about the impact overall. I think it's all a bit deeper than that.

Yes it can have huge effects on individuals but overall maybe not.

As for people on social media being selective, yep definitely. But again as soneone observating this conflict for over 30 years that's not new either.
 
Kaos said:
I think the issue being discussed isn't the scale of the suffering inflicted, but rather how extensively protected and absolved the country is of the crimes they commit. Russia and China don't have the bulk of the 'democratic world' standing hand in hand declaring they stand with them, or that they have every right to defend themselves. Nor is there the same level of doubt as to whether they've committed the crimes they do. When Russia bombs a school or hospital in Ukraine, there isn't any scrutiny of the claim, we just accept they were culpable and what follows is universal condemnation.

Israel on the other hand serves as some peculiar case study, where Western leaders rush to proclamations of support, and rival politicians tripping over one another to prove how much more loyal and supportive they are towards them. There are posters here for instance who suddenly morph into bomb impact experts to try and absolve Israel of bombing a hospital (because the reality of that is so unfathomable), but haven't ever questioned the validity of similar events in Ukraine.
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Good point. Ive heard this raised in conversations at work.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Don’t you think the tail is wagging the dog in the way it never could before? The mainstream journalists are all on Twitter. So when you see self appointed “missile noise experts” (a few of whom are members of redcafe) confidently declaring that the hospital bomb was definitely preceded by the unique sonic footprint of an Israeli bomb then that will influence the media narrative. Which in turn, can influence political decisions. Which wouldn’t have happened when journalists had to check with more trustworthy sources to fact check before going to press.

And that’s all assuming that mainstream media are even still relevant! At this stage you really only need a shift in the public consensus on social media to have real life effects. Politicians get influenced by that narrative. Citizens take to the streets, embassies get attacked, hate crimes happen etc etc
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In theory yes. In this context no. This is not theory, we have 75 years of a pretty consistent narrative and data. Pan the camera out. The Western governments have never listened to their people on Palestine and the ones local to the region, increasingly less. Whether on the streets, in the broadsheets or on Facebook.

This situation is pretty unique and constant.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
The Israel - Palestine war existed before Hamas was even formed.

I genuinely don't see a resolution unless the world governing bodies step in properly and start sanctioning in a fair and just way. Which I can't see happening either.
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Yes, violent resistance will not stop even if Hamas is somehow erased.
 
moses said:
Jesus. That's fairly harsh.
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I don't mean to sound harsh, this is Hamas' primary weapon in this war. They have to portray Israel to be as evil as they possibly can, its their only way out of this, their absolute priority. The ridiculous casualty number given minutes after this car park incident is just an example of it.

I've seen enough footage of the dead to know this can't go on, but the amount of people who take Hamas' word as gospel, including mainstream media, the worldwide reaction to bullshit the other day, I also find pretty disturbing.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Only in relation to the Holocaust, many Germans don't know their colonial history in Africa because it isn't taught as much.
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I'm sure you also know that the state Germany only exists since 1871. At that time the other European nations already distributed the world amongst them. Germany didn't get a big piece of the cake.

Less than 50 years later after WW1 the Versailles treaty stripped Germany of all colonies.

Thus, colonisation isn't an integral part of our history.
Still I don't see what this has to do with the topic of this thread.
 
Kaos said:
Israel on the other hand serves as some peculiar case study, where Western leaders rush to proclamations of support, and rival politicians tripping over one another to prove how much more loyal and supportive they are towards them.
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Five days ago, a Republican congressman showed up to Capitol Hill wearing an IDF uniform and claiming he had "served for both countries." He didn't serve for the fecking IDF he volunteered for one month to move supplies around. He's not even Israeli, he's some Latino from Michigan!
 
B. Munich said:
I'm sure you also know that the state Germany only exists since 1871. At that time the other European nations already distributed the world amongst them. Germany didn't get a big piece of the cake.

Less than 50 years later after WW1 the Versailles treaty stripped Germany of all colonies.

Thus, colonisation isn't an integral part of our history.
Still I don't see what this has to do with the topic of this thread.
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Germany officially admitted to committing genocide against the Namibians, how is that not an integral part of your history?
 
A four year old's heart gave out because he was so scared. A four year old. Died from fear.

So many people have a place reserved for themselves in hell.

[Al Jazeera]

"..Mohammad Daoud, 41, is in a state of shock, still reeling from the death of his four-year-old son, Tamim, who suffered from a heart ailment.

“Tamim woke up terrified because of the heavy shelling. He came running to his mother’s lap crying and trembling with fear,” said the father of two, recalling the attack.

“For a moment I didn’t realise that Tamim’s heart couldn’t stand it. I tried to calm him down, but his heart was beating so hard, as if it was going to fall out of place.”

He rushed Tamim to the children’s hospital for cardiopulmonary resuscitation, but the doctors said the child’s condition had already deteriorated.

“Tamim stayed for hours in intensive care until he passed away late in the day,” Daoud said..."
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Five days ago, a Republican congressman showed up to Capitol Hill wearing an IDF uniform and claiming he had "served for both countries." He didn't serve for the fecking IDF he volunteered for one month to move supplies around. He's not even Israeli, he's some Latino from Michigan!
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I'm always curious as who they're so desperate to garner approval from? The US Jewish community aren't some uniform hive mind that think alike, and as with any other community they harbour views pertaining to both sides of the conflict - in fact some of the biggest dissenting voices are from the same community. I doubt they'd be woo'd by some insecure politician masquerading around capital hill in full uniform shouting to the world how much he loves Israel.

It's become the new 'I hate communism more!' boasting contest that was prevalent during the peak years of the cold war. The political insecurity in that nation truly is a peculiar thing.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
In the wider context given the disparity.
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But that's not what was being discussed. I think it was being suggested that Hamas shouldn't be expected to have the same resources as the Israeli govt to show evidence of the hospital blast. That was what I was responding to.
 
Kaos said:
I'm always curious as who they're so desperate to garner approval from? The US Jewish community aren't some uniform hive mind that think alike, and as with any other community they harbour views pertaining to both sides of the conflict - in fact some of the biggest dissenting voices are from the same community. I doubt they'd be woo'd by some insecure politician masquerading around capital hill in full uniform shouting to the world how much he loves Israel.

It's become the new 'I hate communism more!' boasting contest that was prevalent during the peak years of the cold war. The political insecurity in that nation truly is a peculiar thing.
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Evangelical Christians, which is a big part of the US voter base. They believe it's gonna help bring Jesus back. Sounds like I'm taking the piss, but I'm really not.
 
Lash said:
Evangelical Christians, which is a big part of the US voter base. They believe it's gonna help bring Jesus back. Sounds like I'm taking the piss, but I'm really not.
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I was going to say. It's bizarre, but that is the answer I think so also.
 
B. Munich said:
I didn't question that their was am incident at the hospital causing deaths and injuries.

I am challenging the reports from the Hamas controlled health agency which came up with detailed assessment of casualties within minutes after the explosion. Not only that they of course knew it has been the Israelis bombing the hospital.

Another piece of thought. What benefits Israel would have had in bombing a Christian hospital just when Joe Biden is visiting and trying to meditate?
Honestly I don't see absolutely any benefit for the IDF to bomb the hospital.
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Ok, what do you think the Anglican Church stands to gain by supposedly lying (according to you) that there were a thousand people taking shelter in the car park?

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, both sides are trying to win a propaganda war here?
I mean neither 'side' are exactly innocent from atrocities are they?

Why give one side the benefit of the doubt but not the other?
It's very difficult to come up with any form of detective work from your sofa.

That's the last I am saying on this, as it's a fruitless and pointless conversation.
 
Lash said:
Evangelical Christians, which is a big part of the US voter base. They believe it's gonna help bring Jesus back. Sounds like I'm taking the piss, but I'm really not.
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Watched one documentary few days ago, and yes you are correct and yes they also really believe it will help bring Jesus back.

Fascinating (well, not sure that's the right word) is this world in which we are living.
 
Lash said:
Evangelical Christians, which is a big part of the US voter base. They believe it's gonna help bring Jesus back. Sounds like I'm taking the piss, but I'm really not.
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Really?? I've got very curious about how the American right wing can appease the antisemites and islamophobes in their base. Hadn't thought about this angle. How does it work?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Really?? I've got very curious about how the American right wing can appease the antisemites and islamophobes in their base. Hadn't thought about this angle. How does it work?
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The consolidation of the religious Right in the US as a voting block and the Evangelical Apocalypticism is fascinating. And very relevant.

A different thread though?
 
Ive never really understood why the US stand by them so staunchly.

No matter whether there is a Republican or Democrat president the support never seems to waver.

Is it really all about money??
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Really?? I've got very curious about how the American right wing can appease the antisemites and islamophobes in their base. Hadn't thought about this angle. How does it work?
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My impression is that the islamophobia is more intense/captures more people in the right-wing base than the antisemitism. In significant part because of the 20+ years now of the war on terror.
 
MTF said:
My impression is that the islamophobia is more intense/captures more people in the right-wing base than the antisemitism. In significant part because of the 20+ years now of the war on terror.
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They frequently and increasingly exist side by side. The antisemitism is foundational to a lot of the anti gov militia types. Big government are inevitably the Jews, as are the Illuminati and the Marxists. It doesn't have to make sense.
 
Rooney24 said:
Ive never really understood why the US stand by them so staunchly.

No matter whether there is a Republican or Democrat president the support never seems to waver.

Is it really all about money??
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I think its as much as carrying on with tradition and having an Allied in the region. You could argue it does them more harm than good though.
 
MTF said:
My impression is that the islamophobia is more intense/captures more people in the right-wing base than the antisemitism. In significant part because of the 20+ years now of the war on terror.
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Maybe also because hating muslims aligns with the hysteria of their base about immigration? "We will not be replaced" The jews have been accused of many things over the years but mass immigration is not one of them (not recently anyway).

Anyhoo. Miles off topic. I'll shut up now.
 
MTF said:
My impression is that the islamophobia is more intense/captures more people in the right-wing base than the antisemitism. In significant part because of the 20+ years now of the war on terror.
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The ring wing base does however vary. There is an ethno-nationalist strain within it that is definitely anti-semetic. Obviously, being ethno-nationalist also requires one to reject muslims as well.
 
Rooney24 said:
Ive never really understood why the US stand by them so staunchly.

No matter whether there is a Republican or Democrat president the support never seems to waver.

Is it really all about money??
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No, it's not all about money. There's several factors, but I'd summarize that there's more constituencies in the US that are pleased by the steadfast support than those that would be pleased by condemnation/significant actions to restrain Israel. That includes people/organizations that are significant donors to campaigns, but I don't think that's the entirety of the calculus.
 
B. Munich said:
I didn't question that their was am incident at the hospital causing deaths and injuries.

I am challenging the reports from the Hamas controlled health agency which came up with detailed assessment of casualties within minutes after the explosion. Not only that they of course knew it has been the Israelis bombing the hospital.

Another piece of thought. What benefits Israel would have had in bombing a Christian hospital just when Joe Biden is visiting and trying to meditate?
Honestly I don't see absolutely any benefit for the IDF to bomb the hospital.
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What benefits did have they have bombing it before?
 
MTF said:
No, it's not all about money. There's several factors, but I'd summarize that there's more constituencies in the US that are pleased by the steadfast support than those that would be pleased by condemnation/significant actions to restrain Israel. That includes people/organizations that are significant donors to campaigns, but I don't think that's the entirety of the calculus.
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The evangelical christian right need israel to exist and then to upset its neighbours enough so that they try and blow it out of existence. That way comes the rapture.
 
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