If they have to be, then there's no hope for decades to come. Because Israel, especially now, is not going to do that. Forget the govenment - the people will erupt.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
If they have to be, then there's no hope for decades to come. Because Israel, especially now, is not going to do that. Forget the govenment - the people will erupt.
Hamas are anti-peace. Their doctrine is to wipe Israel off the map. There can be no negotiation with a party that does not believe you have the right to exist.
Hamas are just ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda. Deplorable monsters that need to be destroyed. How you do that though I don't know.
Why is channel 4 giving this guy an interview and a platform to talk? this is weird.
Not with the history, and indeed the weight of history at play here. But given that you appear to be advocating that both sides could/should come together as one nation perhaps you can provide examples?
I struggle with people condemning Hamas for being utterly comprehensively barbaric for killing babies and alledgedly mutilitating them, and yet condone the siege of gaza and its relentlessbombing, which has also led to lots of decapitated babies.
At the moment there's hundreds close to starving to death in Gaza too.
And let's not forget that the conditions for babies and little children has been dire in gaza for decades, under the auspices of Israel.
Too me its utter hypocrisy.
At the moment there's hundreds close to starving to death in Gaza too.
And let's not forget that the conditions for babies and little children has been dire in gaza for decades, under the auspices of Israel.
Too me its utter hypocrisy.
I think the best chance of peace is in the form of a 2x state solution. Palestine and Israel could live together and enjoy great prosperity.
but needs the other Arabs need to be the ones to broker it and I don't think it's in their interests to do so.
Palestine could be a thriving state, Gaza on the Mediterranean with a booming tourism industry. New hotels and infrastructure would create jobs and prosperity. A zero tax enclave.
Egypt could give up a small part of the Sinai to expand the area. UAE, Saudi,Jordan, israel could pay for the development of the infrastructure.
issue is I don't think Palestinians would agree to such a measure. Hamas certainly wouldn't, they just want to decimate Israel.
but needs the other Arabs need to be the ones to broker it and I don't think it's in their interests to do so.
Palestine could be a thriving state, Gaza on the Mediterranean with a booming tourism industry. New hotels and infrastructure would create jobs and prosperity. A zero tax enclave.
Egypt could give up a small part of the Sinai to expand the area. UAE, Saudi,Jordan, israel could pay for the development of the infrastructure.
issue is I don't think Palestinians would agree to such a measure. Hamas certainly wouldn't, they just want to decimate Israel.
One is murder. The other is a very unfortunate result of war. When an enemy hides behind its citizens to attack.
they are not the same
And the settlements, I assume you'd agree to undo all that illegal expansion?
Hamas would say its at war too.
An example would be any current country that has civil or internal wars in his history, you are free to pick any of them. From France to Japan, the US, Vietnam and a multitude of other countries or kingdoms.
yep Israel unilaterally leaves all settlements in the West Bank. Then a tunnel project connecting Gaza to the West Bank.
Yeah, I agree, but it's hard to explain to people who live elsewhere. Whatever happened in Colombia was hardly like for like.
This is also why the various historical and comparative examples often cited are of limited use. Anyway I hope you are staying safe.
Can you suggest how Israel can destroy Hamas without a siege on Gaza?
You never fail in a few short sentences to make me question my own conclusions. Thank you for that.
I do believe that in exceptional situations, you have to rely on exceptional statesmen and -women who have a political vision and courage that goes way beyond the next elections. There's also, in my opinion, an awful lack of them on the western side, let alone the arabic one. I'm not well versed enough in Israeli politics to make an educated guess about who could emerge if/when Netanyahau falls and if (s)he could fill the bill.
There's definitely on my side a bit of a desperate hope to see a credible enough political actor from the PA with whom a meaningful dialogue for peace could be engaged with. I also definitely agree on the "messianic" dimension generated by Barghouti's imprisonment. The disillusionment it might cause when the magic is off and if he fails to live up to the expectations. Still, he is a firm believer in the two states solution to this day (afaik), has a vision, benefits from a large support of the Palestinians, and I read that he intended to split from the Fatah and found his own political party should he be liberated. It could be a welcome alternative to a Hamas that is now out of the picture and a discredited PA. The Israelis negociated with Arafat, they certainly could negocitate with Barghouti.
It might be a bit naive and premature to talk about negociations and peace talks right now, but I think beyond the horrors of the 7/10 and its terrible consequences, it might exactly be the moment for a real change. Whatever happens and when the dust settles, things willl never be the same again. They either sit down at the table and try to find a solution, or I can see this ending only in one way, and the latter isn't pretty.
The only way to destroy Hamas or the ideology it is built upon is by making gazans and palestinians lives exponentially better. By creating a context where extremism and terrorism is an obvious bad option for gazans and palestinians. But at the minute, it's totally utopic.
By accepting the legitimate rights of the Palestinians. The ANC in SA will today be proscribed a terrorist organisation if Apartheid was not crumbled.
No matter how patient and peace loving one is, when hope is lost violence becomes the only viable option
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Well it could reconsider what it exactly it hopes to achieve. If its serious about peace.
Are the constant references to the ANC because it's one of the very few examples where a group designated as a terror group was actually the good guys?
I'm sure there are others, particularly resistance groups from the world wars, but I think a big factor in separating resistance from terror is who they target. Once you cross that line, it's almost impossible to come back from it.
Hamas will never be legitimised. They will never not be considered a terrorist group. They are not resistance fighters or freedom fighters. They intentionally target civilians as their primary target.
Do we know that Israel did not bomb the hospital? Most convincing theory I've seen is that it was an artillery shell fired from the direction of Israel, based on the size of the crater and the dispersal pattern. But regardless, believing it was Israel who hit the hospital is not some kooky conspiracy theory that only antisemites believe.
Stop making fecking excuses, it's pathetic. When you deliberately target the civilian population, it isn't "a very unfortunate result of war", it's murder. It's exactly the same.
Are you aware of your own hypocrisy?
Maybe they could consider not oppressing, brutalizing and murdering the civilian population of Gaza? If they manage to cripple Hamas, but murder 20.000 and injure another few dozen thousand civilians while doing so, is it worth it? What have they accomplished? How long would it take for the Hamas leadership to rebuild, with the abundance of aggrieved boys and young men in Gaza? And if not them, what would stop another group from filling the void left by Hamas?
I was at the march yesterday and your post is total bullshit. People from all walks of life, a significant majority of people from non Muslim, non Arab backgrounds there to support Palestinians. A sizeable number of anti Zionist Jews as well. In a thread of some ridiculous takes from the pro-Israeli lot, yours stand out.
I wouldn't even say this is a pro-Israeli take it is that bad. Continually making the same points despite people correcting the many factual errors. It is like we have a bad AI chat bot that signed up for a profile.
Hamas voters I bet everyone one of them.
I do appreciate this perspective. I guess a classic and pertinent example would be Anwar Sadat’s visit to the Knesset in 1977. I can’t think of another statesman concerned with this conflict that has made quite such a dramatic and daring gesture that genuinely made a difference. Some might argue Rabin and Arafat in the 90s but I’d be less ready to ascribe the kind of vision and courage you’re talking about to either of them. Of course Sadat and Rabin’s respective fates provide a very cautionary lesson to future potential groundbreakers.
That_Bloke said:
At this stage I’m not sure a truly visionary and courageous Palestinian leadership can or should remain tied to the failed two-state project, or to the rejectionist Arab nationalist and Islamist programs that have led the Palestinians nowhere. I’d be a lot more enthusiastic about Barghouti or any other emerging Palestinian leader if they could very publicly propose a fully inclusive vision and program for the future of Palestine - from the River to the Sea - that embraces all of its current inhabitants regardless of religion, ethnicity, origin, etc. Of course Palestinian leaders have to operate within the constraints imposed by Palestinian society (not to mention Israeli suspicion, opposition, and sabotage). And there are genuine questions to be posed regarding the capacity for Palestinian society to evolve towards acceptance of such a vision right now (and not just Palestinian society obviously).
Perhaps, although that was a different era and a different Israel, and there’s currently no Israeli politician on the horizon with the stature and qualities required to persuade the Israeli public that maybe they learned the wrong lessons from the failure of negotiating with Arafat.
I saw John Lyndon on France24 last week mention that more Israelis were killed on 7th October than during the entire second intifafa. Given the transformation to Israeli politics brought on in large part by the intifada - the death of the peace camp, the indifference to the Palestinians of the centre, and the triumphalist ascendancy of the anti-peace right - we must assume that the long-term impact of this war on Israel will likewise be transformative. In what sense, however, is currently very difficult to assess, and we have an unprecedented conflict to get through first before we can even begin to weigh such matters. I’m not optimistic though.
there's literally videos of people holding up racist placards, chanting for intifada, waving ISIS flags, ripping down LGBT flags.
these same radicals do not care for peace. You will see. As soon as Israel is attacked again, these people will be silent. Or worse still, celebrating in the streets. You'll see their true colours
Post some sources.
Ironically, my family and I were racially abused on the way home by a Chelsea fan at Earl's Court station. That was the only incident of note.
That’s shite to hear, though unfortunately not surprising. Hope you’re doing ok.
Probably their own fault that they didn't rise up against Hamas till now.
Thank you. And yes, we were all fine - another Chelsea fan came up to us and said "we're not all like that" - made me think of duffer.
I think you’ve made your point. Let’s move the discussion back to what’s happening in Gaza
Firstly that's not an Isis flag - it's just a black flag with the Islamic shahada on it.
Secondly, a couple of jumped up teens in a protest of 300k-500k is hardly representative of what you're suggesting.
I never paid attention to ISIS flag and I have to say that it has no resemblance with this one, not even a little bit.