Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
I don't think it's fatigue. On the contrary, under normal circumstances this would have fired up the protesters even further.

However, take this into account: Many of the protesters you have mentioned have now been called up for reserve duty or are aiding either the IDF or the survivors as volunteers - since the system itself has absolutely failed, after years of being destroyed by Netanyahu and his band of corrupt idiots.
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That obviously makes sense. Tough to protest when you're at the front.

How is Netanyahu's standing right now anyway? Is he benefiting from the situation?
 
Since we see it fairly often if my math are correct a maximum of 7.9% of Gaza's current population voted for Hamas. That's a little more than the proportion of Israelis that voted for Otzma Yehudit which is seen as descendant of the Kach party, we don't even have to consider other movements or the far bigger Likud, Ben Gvir's party is a match to Hamas in terms of popularity.
 
Amir said:
I will not pretend to know the history of every square inch of land. But I do know this: What you are suggesting would be a disaster to Israel and ensure that what happened on October 7 will be repeated. You basically want to us tell Hamas: You win. You massacred many Israelis, and you get to keep the lands those people lived in. So Hamas will learn that he should attack us again for further gains. The idea that we'll then just take those lands back will mean sacrificing more Israeli lives for this little experiment of yours, which is probably very comfortable to conduct from where are you sitting at. It will also send a horrible message to all our enemies, including Iran and Hezbollah.

Hamas are vile animals who want to kill Israelis and destroy Israel. If you are suggesting we negotiate with them, then you are naive. If you think that after what happened on October 7 we can continue our lives normally with Hamas right accross the border - even with a peace deal and a two-state solution - then you are naive.

I do believe that the two-state solution is the only real solution, I do believe Israel needs to show flexibility and settle. But I don't think either side has the leaders for it right now. And I certainly KNOW that we can't and won't ever see Hamas as part of it. Especially after October 7.
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These people don’t see any sort of reality. They can’t accept that even 1967 borders aren’t realistic. They can’t accept the legitimate concerns that Israel will have. I summed it up rightly or wrongly to him as : “I think that if anybody seriously wants to broker peace and make a 2 state solution then both sides need to hear some home truths which will be difficult. It’s not going back to the 1967 borders, Jerusalem needs a delicate deal, and Israel cannot keep empowering terrorist settlers and ministers. Palestinians need security from terror too. That said, it would need to be impressed on Palestinians that any militant action against their neighbours will likely result in invasion and I’m not sure anybody sees the majority of their leadership as honest brokers with enough control to prevent it, or to prevent a pa,hamas becoming another Iranian proxy. “ and obviously he didn’t reply. There’s a huge disconnect between what we think are realistic solutions and what the western free Palestine supporter feels is one.
 
Amir said:
There are very few reports inn Israel over what is happening in Gaza. My newspaper (Haaretz) does report it but not many read it (and many see those reporters as 'traitors').

I'm sure the average Brit or American or whatever is far more exposed to the Gaza strip than the average Israeli.

It's the same about what's happening in the West Bank as well, and not just in the last couple of weeks. It's a regular thing.
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It doesn't help that many arab israelis are now being persecuted within israel, through losing their jobs to being jailed for even mentioning palestine..
 
owlo said:
These people don’t see any sort of reality. They can’t accept that even 1967 borders aren’t realistic. They can’t accept the legitimate concerns that Israel will have. I summed it up rightly or wrongly to him as : “I think that if anybody seriously wants to broker peace and make a 2 state solution then both sides need to hear some home truths which will be difficult. It’s not going back to the 1967 borders, Jerusalem needs a delicate deal, and Israel cannot keep empowering terrorist settlers and ministers. Palestinians need security from terror too. That said, it would need to be impressed on Palestinians that any militant action against their neighbours will likely result in invasion and I’m not sure anybody sees the majority of their leadership as honest brokers with enough control to prevent it, or to prevent a pa,hamas becoming another Iranian proxy. “ and obviously he didn’t reply. There’s a huge disconnect between what we think are realistic solutions and what the western free Palestine supporter feels is one.
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The two state solution is dead and buried. But even those ideas of two states that have been floated over the past 25 years by politicians have spoken of a Palestine with no standing army or real defensive capabilities.
 
Palestinian takeaway in London gets death threats every day


"They call maybe 10, 20 times. To a degree, we've stopped taking orders on the phone, to be honest.
"It's frightening and intimidating. I keep assuring my staff they are sick people", said Mr Kherellah.
"I just feel like we are not allowed to talk. It's frightening. It's intimidating. One of my staff didn't turn up the next day; he was so frightened. He felt intimidated.
"I feel I have to assure my staff, every single day, we're going through a tough period. We're not going to be frightened."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67172707
 
JPRouve said:
Since we see it fairly often if my math are correct a maximum of 7.9% of Gaza's current population voted for Hamas. That's a little more than the proportion of Israelis that voted for Otzma Yehudit which is seen as descendant of the Kach party, we don't even have to consider other movements or the far bigger Likud, Ben Gvir's party is a match to Hamas in terms of popularity.
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Tbh even if they did that’s really irrelevant. Palestine will never be democratic country. It’s not even a country and it’s only natural young generation that has living memory of war and repression to vote for radical parties.
 
Synagogues damaged, windows crushed from kosher shops and restaurants... The idiots are even filming themselves. All in Vienna. No idea why we are even bothering with guys like that.
 
Frosty said:
The two state solution is dead and buried. But even those ideas of two states that have been floated over the past 25 years by politicians have spoken of a Palestine with no standing army or real defensive capabilities.
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It is dead, for a few decades at least. A lack of standing army doesn’t speak to an ability to grow an organic militant group like hezbollah though. An example is Lebanon, their armed forces are minuscule but they have strong militants. If Palestine was a sovereign state, Israel would have no control of that. You wouldn’t somehow see an inverse whereby a state would weaken the militant groups who would be key political stakeholders too.
 
Hate is always the easiest thing to spread. This is what always happens. Politicians and terrorists making decisions that only benefits them and innocent civilians are left to pick up the pieces.
 
The Corinthian said:
Palestinian takeaway in London gets death threats every day


"They call maybe 10, 20 times. To a degree, we've stopped taking orders on the phone, to be honest.
"It's frightening and intimidating. I keep assuring my staff they are sick people", said Mr Kherellah.
"I just feel like we are not allowed to talk. It's frightening. It's intimidating. One of my staff didn't turn up the next day; he was so frightened. He felt intimidated.
"I feel I have to assure my staff, every single day, we're going through a tough period. We're not going to be frightened."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67172707
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Right, I'm going there tomorrow for dinner.
 
Godfather said:
Synagogues damaged, windows crushed from kosher shops and restaurants... The idiots are even filming themselves. All in Vienna. No idea why we are even bothering with guys like that.
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Disgusting. No doubt similar things are happening all around the world.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Tbh even if they did that’s really irrelevant. Palestine will never be democratic country. It’s not even a country and it’s only natural young generation that has living memory of war and repression to vote for radical parties.
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It's relevant when it is used as a point about innocence of the population. If you apply that logic to on side, you better apply it to the other. And it goes without saying that whoever seriously applies that logic is a maniac.
 
Badunk said:
Disgusting. No doubt similar things are happening all around the world.
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I mean mostly it's the lowest of the low just looking for any excuse to do damage. Some guys tried to stop them from tearing down the flag from the synagogue and got hit in the face by the scum.

Even posted it on Twitter...

 


map of west bank + settlements, showing work done after oct 7 - english translation in the second image
 
JPRouve said:
It's relevant when it is used as a point about innocence of the population. If you apply that logic to on side, you better apply it to the other. And it goes without saying that whoever seriously applies that logic is a maniac.
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I can imagine someone that radically supports the IDF to use it as an excuse to perform a genocide on the local population but it’s a mental logic to begin with to even entertain it.

I have no doubt that similar logic will be applied after the ground offensive starts anyway, but at least around here I see this logic only used fr a single poster so I guess it’s a good thing.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I can imagine someone that radically supports the IDF to use it as an excuse to perform a genocide on the local population but it’s a mental logic to begin with to even entertain it.

I have no doubt that similar logic will be applied after the ground offensive starts anyway, but at least around here I see this logic only used fr a single poster so I guess it’s a good thing.
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We have a few that have done it in this thread, seemingly not realizing that it is the kind of logic that Hamas can follow to justify their actions.
 
Godfather said:
I mean mostly it's the lowest of the low just looking for any excuse to do damage. Some guys tried to stop them from tearing down the flag from the synagogue and got hit in the face by the scum.

Even posted it on Twitter...

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I've noticed Vienna seems to been having more problems than other cities. Any particular reason ?
 
Raoul said:
I've noticed Vienna seems to been having more problems than other cities. Any particular reason ?
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Not sure it's much worse than anywhere else in Europe. Think it's still much better than what you get in France or Belgium.

But one thing is for sure: our politicians have failed immensely with their immigration and integration policies. And I've come to think that it (partly) might be on purpose: We've historically always been a conservative/right wing country and poor/no integration and it's inevitable results serves them and their populist agendas very well.
 
owlo said:
I personally suspect he’s done when this is over, and he knows it. His whole shtick has been security through his laws etc and it’s spectacularly backfired.
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I'm sure he knows he's in trouble. But he'll fight tooth and nails. He's already shown he has no problems causing the country great harm, as long as he's the PM. 1,300 deaths won't change that.
 
Superden said:
It doesn't help that many arab israelis are now being persecuted within israel, through losing their jobs to being jailed for even mentioning palestine..
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True, that's anothing thing that is barely being reported, and that most people in Israel - jewish one's, obviously - don't care about right now.

I should point out that there is genuire fear those days. People are scared for themselves and their families. For instance: there have been loads of reports of people taking photos of houses and apartment buildings throughout the country. Police have checked and it appears to be nothing, but some are truly scared there are sinister people mapping cities for further attacks. That's the state of mind of many right now. And some would, unfortunately, automatically suspect arab israelis.
 
HTG said:
How is Netanyahu's standing right now anyway? Is he benefiting from the situation?
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No, he's not benefiting at all. The very few polls conducted show that he's lost a lot of support. But that has happened before, those things are fluid and can change. Especially when he has his own large cult which don't believe he can do wrong. He's already working behind the scenes on his political stance and the way he'll put all the blame on the army, other security organizations, etc.

Will people buy this? Who knows. There's also the question of timing. If this war takes a long time, it may play in his favour as people's memories will fade. Also, if this war goes badly, it can also damage his chances.

But one thing is for sure - he won't let go by choice.
 
Just reading back on the second intifada, and specifically “Operation Defensive Shield”, launched by Ariel Sharon in March 2002 in response to the Netanya hotel Passover bombing. What an absolutely mental six months the first half of 2002 was in the region, it’s fascinating and incredibly grim to read the timeline of events in isolation:

Middle East timeline 2002: Part One

Middle East timeline 2002: Part Two
 
Raoul said:
I've noticed Vienna seems to been having more problems than other cities. Any particular reason ?
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I'm not sure it's worse than other big cities. I've seen videos of street riots, police cordoning off the Holocaust memorial, someone climbing a flag pole to grab an Israel flag he then tried to burn, people distributing sweets on the street the day of the terrorist attack, a synagogue firebombed, stars of david drawn on the houses of Jewish people, fireworks thrown on a couple for supposedly speaking Hebrew. And that's just the inner city of Berlin. It just doesn't get the same amplification on Twitter.
 
Amir said:
I will not pretend to know the history of every square inch of land. But I do know this: What you are suggesting would be a disaster to Israel and ensure that what happened on October 7 will be repeated. You basically want to us tell Hamas: You win. You massacred many Israelis, and you get to keep the lands those people lived in. So Hamas will learn that he should attack us again for further gains. The idea that we'll then just take those lands back will mean sacrificing more Israeli lives for this little experiment of yours, which is probably very comfortable to conduct from where are you sitting at. It will also send a horrible message to all our enemies, including Iran and Hezbollah.

Hamas are vile animals who want to kill Israelis and destroy Israel. If you are suggesting we negotiate with them, then you are naive. If you think that after what happened on October 7 we can continue our lives normally with Hamas right accross the border - even with a peace deal and a two-state solution - then you are naive.

I do believe that the two-state solution is the only real solution, I do believe Israel needs to show flexibility and settle. But I don't think either side has the leaders for it right now. And I certainly KNOW that we can't and won't ever see Hamas as part of it. Especially after October 7.
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I am from Colombia. We had a decades-long civil war. 215,005 civilians died. 70,587 people remain 'disappeared.' 37,094 victims of sexual violence. At least 7,816,500 displaced people. Horrendous and diabolical acts of violence committed by the paramilitary groups, the guerrilla groups, and the state.

The progress we have made with the peace process has required that we (the state) sit down and negotiate it with the people we need to negotiate with, multiple times. That we accept unpalatable things. A certain degree of impunity. Reintegration into society of elements that ostensibly sought to destroy it. This has been achieved with great effort, against strong opposition, and has improved the country, and continues to do so day by day.

You call the other poster naive. But I think you are being naive if you think you can have a solution that doesn't involve ever dealing with Hamas. That's asking for a square circle.
 
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He must be one of the posters here on the Caf with the argument that they voted for Hamas.
 
Amir said:
No, he's not benefiting at all. The very few polls conducted show that he's lost a lot of support. But that has happened before, those things are fluid and can change. Especially when he has his own large cult which don't believe he can do wrong. He's already working behind the scenes on his political stance and the way he'll put all the blame on the army, other security organizations, etc.

Will people buy this? Who knows. There's also the question of timing. If this war takes a long time, it may play in his favour as people's memories will fade. Also, if this war goes badly, it can also damage his chances.

But one thing is for sure - he won't let go by choice.
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Tanks for the summary.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
You call the other poster naive. But I think you are being naive if you think you can have a solution that doesn't involve ever dealing with Hamas. That's asking for a square circle.
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But Hamas isn't interested in a solution that includes the existance of Israel. Abbas may be a partner for that. Hamas isn't, certainly not after it conducted the worst massacre in Israel's history.
 
dinostar77 said:
dude dont encourage the troll
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He didn't say anything out of the ordinary. In a quick glance of your posts you call one a racist, another ignorant, a liar, and encourage another to ignore you. You discourage anyone who wants to participate.
 
carvajal said:
You're a pain in the ass, he didn't say anything out of the ordinary. In a quick glance of your posts you call one a racist, another ignorant, a liar, and encourage another to ignore you. You discourage anyone who wants to participate.
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Maybe it's uncharitable to call people trolls. But in the last week there seems to be an increase in posters whose 'takes' are incredibly superficial and they're all the same takes.
 
carvajal said:
You're a pain in the ass, he didn't say anything out of the ordinary. In a quick glance of your posts you call one a racist, another ignorant, a liar, and encourage another to ignore you. You discourage anyone who wants to participate.
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I probably missed something but the post that you quoted is about a post that his gauding a poster that has absolutely said things that are out of the ordinary and many of them absolutely wrong.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Maybe it's uncharitable to call people trolls. But in the last week there seems to be an increase in posters whose 'takes' are incredibly superficial and they're all the same takes.
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If they break any rule, report them. I actually reported someone from this thread for the first time since I'm a Caf member and the mods acted accordingly. They have been doing a great job in a very volatile thread where tensions are understandably high.
 
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