Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less



For anyone who wants to watch the United Nations security council on the Israel - Gaza crisis.
 
Ødegaard said:
This is eerily similar to Ben Gvir's disgusting views, just from a pro-palestina side.
Calling any group of humans animals is horribly dehumanizing and a recipe for escalation.

Edit: as i am waking up, something tells me this could be satire? It is so close.
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It is, almost word for word.

Still it was written without explanation or context and brought absolutely nothing to the discussion other than rile posters up.

Terrible post.

BarstoolProphet said:
Yeah, I believe you can say that it correlates. MBS has massive ambitions for KSA (he's the main driving force behind Saudi Vision 2030); he wants KSA to emerge as a major geopolitical power and targets regional stability to increase prosperity, and he sees the theocratic regime in Iran and its proxies as the major hindrance to that. He initiated the blockage of Qatar mainly because of Qatar's links to Iran, but that kinda backfired. A major hindrance is also obviously the conflict we are discussing, hence his willingness to strike a deal with Israel and find a solution for both parties.
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Not sure about that part, unless you meant a solution between SA and Israel. His massive miscalculation as well as Israel's was that they could strike a deal while leaving the Palestinians and the Iranians in the ditch. I welcome the will of finding a basis for prosperity and stability in the region, but one thinks that it can be done without including those two in the equation, they're in for a rude awakening.
 
That_Bloke said:
"Hamas actually amended its Charter in 2017 where it settles for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.
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Wikipedia says
The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy". It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It is pretty strange that the interrogator asks multiple times if the person thinks "their actions are like ISIS."
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Its not that strange given the techniques used were very similar to ISIS. The interviewees aren't obliged to answer a certain way either since neither a yes nor a no would in any way reduce their culpability. What is eye opening to me is that these guys seem to have been used as pawns (albeit despotically murderous ones) to advance the political interests of a Hamas leaders living in Qatar and one or two hidden away in Gaza bunkers.
 
owlo said:
Anti semites aren’t likely to see things as anti semitic. Higher level anti semitism doesn’t make lower level anti semitism less real. And of course Jews can be anti semitic. Breaking it down to “actual prejudice” per your definitions and “fake anti semitism“ is not exactly good.


That said, you’re pushing a narrative that all the violence is Israel’s fault and a product of Zionism and Israel’s existence, pushing Hamas viewpoints through Hamas cranks, so it’s par for the course.
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Once again, you've deliberately misrepresented my words. The galling thing is you can actually read my post in the quote.

Please let me know where I've said 'actual prejudice' or 'fake anti semitism'. If you're unable to represent what I say accurately then what's the point of me continuing to converse with you?
 
Good thread on non-violent resistance and how that worked out.









 
Pogue Mahone said:
Have you read some of the details of the footage? I don’t think even the most militant Irish nationalist would have tried to excuse or justify this sort of stuff if it was carried out by the IRA?



There seems to be a (religion fuelled?) hatred here that goes above and beyond the oppressed striking back at the oppressor. Which is maybe worth talking about?
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There is no justifying it. It was abhorrent.

Understanding how it has come to this is not a justification.

When guns are picked up barbarism follows. It's the lack of choice to armed struggle. Only very very few ideologues will choose that path if there is an alternative. What is the alternative for Palestine, existing as second class humans indefinitely?

The suffering of Palestinians is constant, not just a constant threat, but constant. They are oppressed, humiliated, maimed, intimidated, arrested and shot, and it doesn't make the news, because it's not news.

And it's not religion alone, it never is. If it was religion alone, Israel wouldn't and couldn't exist. It's about compromise and co existence. If these things were religion alone there would be no peace anywhere.
 
Bomb per person!!! you think this is a game and you count the fecking xG? people are not numbers ffs.
 
The Corinthian said:
Good thread on non-violent resistance and how that worked out.
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The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.

Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.

Except it has never been that way. Ever.
 
owlo said:
What options do you think are still open? (And a wild tiger is inevitably worse than one in a cage so it’s a bad analogy!)
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I have no idea. I've no idea what's going to happen tomorrow, let alone what options may lay ahead longer term.
 
moses said:
There is no justifying it. It was abhorrent.

Understanding how it has come to this is not a justification.

When guns are picked up barbarism follows. It's the lack of choice to armed struggle. Only very very few ideologues will choose that path if there is an alternative. What is the alternative for Palestine, existing as second class humans indefinitely?

The suffering of Palestinians is constant, not just a constant threat, but constant. They are oppressed, humiliated, maimed, intimidated, arrested and shot, and it doesn't make the news, because it's not news.

And it's not religion alone, it never is. If it was religion alone, Israel wouldn't and couldn't exist. It's about compromise and co existence. If these things were religion alone there would be no peace anywhere.
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Good points, well made. I’m not even sure why I shared those details. Or read them in the first place. It’s all so desperately sad. So hard to see any prospect of peace when the hatred is so deep rooted on both sides.
 
Sly said:
Do elaborate
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I found one part weird, but I don't consider myself educated enough on these things to point it out as a big deal.
At around the 1 minute mark, they ask about what part of Hamas one is part of, and he answers Qassam. Just for the person taking the confession to ask Qassam or Nukhba, the Hamas soldier immediately changes his answer to Nukhba.

El Qazzam being the military wing and Nukhba being the special forces part (based on some quick googling on my part), I find the distinction incredibly unimportant, so the weirdness didn't really matter to me.
 
Frosty said:
The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.

Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.

Except it has never been that way. Ever.
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Well said.
 
The Corinthian said:
Good thread on non-violent resistance and how that worked out.









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Exactly. This is parallel to my point @Pogue Mahone. Hamas wouldn't exist as they do if there were viable alternatives.

Look at any Irish history book, every inch gained towards independence by dialogue was preceeded by violence, which was usually preceeded by ineffective non violent protest of some sort.

Sadly the human story of social progress is not one fuelled by benevolence from above but frequently violence from below. People even killed for and died for our weekends. They were enemies of the state at one point too.
 
Frosty said:
The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.

Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.

Except it has never been that way. Ever.
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Exactly.
 
Frosty said:
The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.

Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.

Except it has never been that way. Ever.
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Except what Hamas did wasn't "resistance". It was a premeditated, offensive act to goad the Israelis into responding with overwhelming force, which is precisely what is happening now. No sane Hamas leader would've been under delusion that murdering 1300 + Israelis would've not received a savage and unprecedented response. So perhaps we should also spare a thought for the myth of violent resistance when the attacking side is overwhelmingly outgunned.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Good points, well made. I’m not even sure why I shared those details. Or read them in the first place. It’s all so desperately sad. So hard to see any prospect of peace when the hatred is so deep rooted on both sides.
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I think the hatred could stop or at least take a back seat to living, and working and having a family, if compromise was made. Only Israel, the only ones in a position to compromise, don't have to.
 
Raoul said:
Except what Hamas did wasn't "resistance". It was an offensive act to goad the Israelis into responding with overwhelming force, which is precisely what is happening now. No sane Hamas leader would've been under delusion that murdering 1300 + Israelis would've not received a savage and unprecedented response. So perhaps we should also spare a thought for the myth of violent resistance when the attacking side is overwhelmingly outgunned.
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I'm not sure reason and sanity are to the fore in armed resistance. It's often desperation.

What about Ireland and the British empire?

Often the resistance is based in the hope the oppressor doesn't have the stomach for genocide.

But sadly you are right, sometimes the oppressor does.
 
Raoul said:
Except what Hamas did wasn't "resistance". It was a premeditated, offensive act to goad the Israelis into responding with overwhelming force, which is precisely what is happening now. No sane Hamas leader would've been under delusion that murdering 1300 + Israelis would've not received a savage and unprecedented response. So perhaps we should also spare a thought for the myth of violent resistance when the attacking side is overwhelmingly outgunned.
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And both points can be true.

There have been a number of contributions that have stated that if Palestinians had only been non-violent that would have been the answer.

It is possible to make that point without implicitly or explicitly condoning the deliberate targeting of civilians. Just like the laws of war allow for action against military targets and not the deliberate targeting of civilians.
 
The idea that non violent resistance is ineffective is a fallacy.

And the implicit support for Hamas as violent resistance who are effecting positive change is a fallacy.

The implicit support for Hamas here is rather extraordinary. Many posters prefacing “violent resistance is the only way” with “ I don’t support this attack.”

The way that certain “facts“ are presented as absolutes is also quite shocking.
 
nickm said:
You mean Hamas. That number likely comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas.

It may be right, it may be wrong, but the source is relevant.
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It’s obviously not right or even close, but it’s proving near impossible right now to write any sort of accurate model so it’s the best we have. CCR and collateral is usually calculated by analysing a zone, its density etc, then expanding it considering intensity and time etc, but we can’t get any accurate data at all currently. Hamas are sanitising sites and denying access.
 
moses said:
Understanding how it has come to this is not a justification.
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True, but if we are really going try to understand, it then we need to understand the regional forces at play as well. This is not just about Hamas taking revenge. For example, the timing - why now?

Well, it turns out that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a deal normalising relations, with Israel - now off the table. That would have cemented Saudi ambitions to be the regional power. Who stands to lose in that? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.

And who backs Hamas? Iran. Which country gains from all this mayhem. Iran. That's not in anyone interests, frankly.
 
nickm said:
Who stands to lose? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen
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Saudi Arabia and Iran are currently engaged in a Chinese-brokered rapprochement, and the war in Yemen has wound down significantly in the last two years, with genuine hopes for some kind of long-term peace on the table due to the Saudi-Iranian thaw (having said that I do agree the Saudi-Israel talks likely played a role in this, and it'll be interesting to see the long-term Saudi response).
 
nickm said:
True, but if we are really going try to understand, then there are other things in play as well. For example, the timing - why now?

Well, it turns out that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a deal normalising relations. with Israel. That cements Saudi ambitions to be the regional power. Who stands to lose? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.

And who backs Hamas? Iran. Which country gains from all this mayhem. Iran.
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Ah that's all speculation, and possibly all true, and I'm not going to debate it. I'm not saying Hamas are some sort of pure revolutionary zeitgeist embodied. What they did was outrageous regardless of any possible paralell agendas.

I'm just speaking in general about armed resistance and why and where it gains traction. If Hamas didn't exist in Palestine, someone else would. And maybe they too would have backers with tangential aims.

The fact remains, Palestine has something to resist and no viable other means of resistance or path to change.

Which is the only point I was trying to make. Understanding the need and drive for resistance, not the motives for October 7th.
 
2cents said:
Saudi Arabia and Iran are currently engaged in a Chinese-brokered rapprochement, and the war in Yemen has wound down significantly in the last two years, with genuine hopes for some kind of long-term peace on the table due to the Saudi-Iranian thaw (having said that I do agree the Saudi-Israel talks likely played a role in this, and it'll be interesting to see the long-term Saudi response).
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The other question for me is whether Iran thinks it has achieved its goals or not in all this, sounds like opinion is split on that.
 
nickm said:
True, but if we are really going try to understand, it then we need to understand the regional forces at play as well. This is not just about Hamas taking revenge. For example, the timing - why now?

Well, it turns out that Saudi Arabia was about to sign a deal normalising relations, with Israel - now off the table. That would have cemented Saudi ambitions to be the regional power. Who stands to lose in that? Iran, Saudi Arabia's massive rival who is current fighting a proxy war with Saudi Arabia in Yemen.

And who backs Hamas? Iran. Which country gains from all this mayhem. Iran. That's not in anyone interests, frankly.
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Yahya Sinwar has also apparently been obsessed with getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli jails. So beyond the geopolitical angle of derailing the Israeli-Saudi peace accords, I think this may have also been a simple situation where Sinwar thought the attack would kill two birds with one stone (so to speak), by derailing the peace deal and somehow delusionally, getting the Israelis to do a hostage swap, whilst ignoring the likelihood the Israelis would retaliate by obliterating Gaza.
 
nickm said:
I think the source should be cited when numbers are being quoted. Do you?
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I have just given you the source for the unfortunate deaths of the Israelis as the Israeli government, do you believe the numbers?
 
E-mal said:
I have just given you the source for the unfortunate deaths of the Israelis as the Israeli government, do you believe the numbers?
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I don't know. What's the source? I will take a look.

Someone claimed 5,000 people have been killed in Gaza by Israel. But they didn't say who said it. Why not?

This isn't rocket science.
 
moses said:
Ah that's all speculation, and possibly all true, and I'm not going to debate it. I'm not saying Hamas are some sort of pure revolutionary zeitgeist embodied. What they did was outrageous regardless of any possible paralell agendas.

I'm just speaking in general about armed resistance and why and where it gains traction. If Hamas didn't exist in Palestine, someone else would. And maybe they too would have backers with tangential aims.

The fact remains, Palestine has something to resist and no viable other means of resistance or path to change.

Which is the only point I was trying to make. Understanding the need and drive for resistance, not the motives for October 7th.
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I dont agree. The drive for resistance is more a function o& internal politics. PIJ and others have gained limited traction in Gaza in the last few years, and whilst Hamas have always had to balance things and had obvious command disagreements, they walked the line in 2019, 2023, and 2022 quite ok. Hamas have been quite happy to harvest the suffering [through pij retaliation by the iaf] to fragment support and splice leadership back to Hamas. It’s been the Israeli strategy too, blaming militancy for Gazan suffering, and hamas have stayed out of it/implicitly supported it. The idea that “Palestine“ wants armed resistance isn’t more than a theory, and the level of resistance has been more a function of internal Hamas politics. Pre this incident, more gazans than ever had Israeli work permits etc, and cooperation with Israel in return for cash. Gaza has been relatively calm for a reason.

Obviously they have changed track, but the root causes and scales of armed resistance in gaza cannot be simplified as “gazans are oppressed and mass violent resistance is a function of that oppression.”
 
Raoul said:
Yahya Sinwar has also apparently been obsessed with getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli jails. So beyond the geopolitical angle of derailing the Israeli-Saudi peace accords, I think this may have also been a simple situation where Sinwar thought the attack would kill two birds with one stone (so to speak), by derailing the peace deal and somehow delusionally, getting the Israelis to do a hostage swap, whilst ignoring the likelihood the Israelis would retaliate by obliterating Gaza.
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And now Iran has two US carriers off its coast, they can't be happy about that outcome.
 
owlo said:
I dont agree. The drive for resistance is more a function o& internal politics. PIJ and others have gained limited traction in Gaza in the last few years, and whilst Hamas have always had to balance things and had obvious command disagreements, they walked the line in 2019, 2023, and 2022 quite ok. Hamas have been quite happy to harvest the suffering [through pij retaliation by the iaf] to fragment support and splice leadership back to Hamas. It’s been the Israeli strategy too, blaming militancy for Gazan suffering, and hamas have stayed out of it/implicitly supported it. The idea that “Palestine“ wants armed resistance isn’t more than a theory, and the level of resistance has been more a function of internal Hamas politics. Pre this incident, more gazans than ever had Israeli work permits etc, and cooperation with Israel in return for cash. Gaza has been relatively calm for a reason.

Obviously they have changed track, but the root causes and scales of armed resistance in gaza cannot be simplified as “gazans are oppressed and mass violent resistance is a function of that oppression.”
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While there are always plenty of moving parts, oppression is a pretty constant factor in the history of armed resistance. It's pretty much integral.
 
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