Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You're right, it's totally fantastical.
We say Puddletown in Dorset, but you're right it's tolpuddle town.
I'm a westerner and have never understood it by that meaning. To me it means dying for something you believe in.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...business&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
There is a well-written overview of the origin story in Bloomberg and not even paywalled.
There is a well-written overview of the origin story in Bloomberg and not even paywalled.
Well there's no evidence this Doctor did that. He was killed by an air strike in so far as the tweet is accurate. He had no agency in the matter that we know of.
The wider problem of using religious terminology to describe this conflict is that it makes an end less likely. Because while it is possible (though very difficult) for Israel to come to some kind of meaningful settlement with a secular Palestinian political body, an Islamist body is much more likely to refuse any form of compromise over land sharing, giving rise to the kind of death cults you see in Hamas. At which point the Israelis think 'why bother trying?' and you get what we've now got.
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Yes, he died trying to save lives in Gaza, something he clearly believed in, hence martyr. How are you not connecting these dots?
He died because he stayed to continue to treat his patients instead of fleeing. That's the cause he died for and why he can be considered as a martyr.
Now, you can lay off or keep digging.
Presumably he died in the hospital in Gaza City in that case and not somewhere else? Why were "his wife, children, and siblings" killed too? Were they also in the hospital? Was it a different attack? I have no idea. Do you?
Completely wrong.
He could have fled to somewhere safer but stayed to continue his work presumably.
He died for a cause, which should be sufficient for those around him to call him a martyr. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a religious one, nor does it have be related to Hamas. Simply dying during the course of his duties as a doctor is sufficient.
I do sometimes wonder what goes through the mind of some people when they post in this thread.
A man and his family were murdered. Not a terrorist, someone working at a hospital, where people are struggling to save lives. But yeah, let's discuss the word martyr, that's really important.
Presumably is doing a lot of work there. Why were his wife, children and siblings there? Or maybe they were all in South Gaza. You have no idea. It's all just indiscriminate fodder for your echo chamber as the blood libels and veiled religious themes start to pick up pace on this increasingly toxic thread.
The footage out of Al-Fakhoura School is appalling. Rooms full of dead people. All ages.
I'm a westerner and don't use it in this sense at all.
Linking martyrs (the word) to the faith of Islam is subconscious islamaophobia if you posted that message without thinking it through or conscious islamaophobia if you did think it through and still posted it.
Just move on from the topic, I think it's best for you at this point.
Rpod! Set up a game of WW. When I'm not playing that, I keep reading this thread/the news and it makes me
He's just making it up. In Lisbon there's the famous Martyrs' Field, where a group of men were hanged for trying to overthrow the government in the 19th century. No one automatically associates the word to islam or religion.
Strange thing to focus on when the post was about a family being murdered.
I asked the poster what he meant by Martyr. He hasn't replied. When I hear the word it has religious connotations because dying for your beliefs is pretty rare in secular politics. Throwing around words like islamophobia doesn't impress me in the slightest. Islam is not above criticism, especially when Hamas are the practitioners.
Thank you, this is a great read.
Yeah, is totally bizarre. I don't know what some people think when they post here.
It can be for more reasons than just religion. If you die for a cause you believe in you are a martyr.
I wouldn't say that.
He totally skimmed over the occupation, the settlements (which are illegal when you go by international law) and Israel's apartheid policy in the West Bank, the blockade of Gaza (which is also illegal) and didn't even mention the Netanyahu government and its prominent role in propping up the Hamas which led to the current disaster. He also didn't mention why Sharon decided to leave Gaza in 2005.
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A martyr is someone who dies standing up for something or someone regardless of their religion. A martyr could be an atheist. I believe you're the only person who interprets the OPs statement as a dog whistle because you're adding the Islamic angle. Nothing of the sort was indicated in his original statement. Even if he died as an Islamic martyr, I don't see why you should have an issue with that. Are you mad that he's being called a martyr or are you mad that practices Islam?
I should have added "so far" as I'm on point 6 in the article, up until then it seemed pretty good. Shame though. Might still finish reading it.
You missed this one in the second para "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" and the antisemitic conspiracy theories in Article 22 and the references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in Article 32.
It's always worth reading everything and I find your search for knowledge absolutely admirable. It's just that this conflict is so polarized, for decades, that it's very difficult to get a clear and objective overview. Going by his "overview", I wouldn't consider Bloomberg as objective.
I'm mad about none of those things. I was interested in what the OP meant by the term. It can mean at least three different things, but the religious martyr is the most normal association of the word in the West, as indicated by the fact it is the first way it is described in most dictionaries. So to use the term and then sneak away from its best known meaning smacks of Daily Mail dog whistling to me. If you wish to provide narrative cover for this then people reading it can judge you according to their own values.
Again we know nothing of the exact circumstances of this man's death and whether it was linked to his work or even that he was a Muslim. In partisan Palestinian local parlance anybody killed by Israel is a martyr irrespective of the circumstances. Perhaps the OP meant that? I do not know.
Yeah I know what you mean man. I guess it's the nature with a conflict where it's near on impossible to find neutral ground, hence why I can't find one but a few posters suggested some text/pods that are showing the Israeli side (and a newbie who lives in Tel Aviv and supports Netanyahu, has also reached out and we're discussing over PMs).
It's sad though, well I find it sad, that I can't speak to 90% of my real life friends with regards to all of this. They just shut down at the mention of it.
People sacrifice themselves for secular causes all the time, most obviously nationalist causes.
Interestingly, the woman generally believed to be the Middle East’s first suicide bomber was a member of the secular Syrian Social Nationalist Party and came from a Christian family.
Er no.
The only side I personally consider worth choosing is the side of peace.
The Israelis aren't going anywhere, so do the Palestinians. Both deserve to live in peace and have their own country. The only solution is to find a way for them to coexist and the most logical one is the two-state solution. There's no other path.
I also believe that there's so much bad blood between those two that we just can't let them decide, especially when one side is so utterly overwhelming the other. So either big brother (hint: the US) steps in and bring order in the schoolyard or it will end in blood, and we're about to witness the greatest tragedy of the 21st century.
I live in Germany and it's a topic I've absolutely refused to discuss with anyone there, given the weight of History, the atrociously one-sided media coverage (much, much worse than say the US or France or Britain), and the lack of knowledge about the conflict from anyone I know. It's pointless and can only end in tears.
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Yeah all the time. Bobby Sands (oh wait that was 42 years ago and it was underpinned by religion.) In Glasgow you can't move for SNP martyrs I expect.
Do tell...
I agree with everything you say but as you also say neither side wants a two state solution and imposing it from outside is impossible. So until both groups change leadership, bloodbaths are the only possibility.
Well you’ve certainly got me there.
Well judging by the fact that everyone on here besides yourself unanimously agrees, it's pretty clear you don't know what the meaning of a marytr is. It's not a westerner or non-westerner thing as you try to paint it, especially as most of us on here are westerners.
Since this thread is an echo chamber of ill thought out anti-Israeli noise and student union posturing, that's hardly surprising. Has anyone here even been to Palestine?
Would it make any difference to your perspective?
I have why?
Someone has to. It won't end well otherwise.
We're past the point of no-return and things will never be the same. "Managing Hamas or any another equivalent" and "mowing the lawn" just won't cut it. The occupation is the root of the problem and poison for both Israel and Palestine. It has to end.
The leaders opposed to a peaceful solution, on both sides, are on their way out, but it won't be enough. The international community has to step in.
And just when I thought you could actually be reasonable and worth engaging with, you then come up with this. Ah mate, you're truly having a nightmare in this thread.