The New York Times is not a leftist news organization by any stretch of the imagination and is not even remotely anti-war.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Ah we’re now back at the “Jews control America” stage of the analysis.
It's quite incredible that this idea just won't die.
The control of banks (.. so wealth… so power) idea has never really gone away. Been around decades to my knowledge.
This is added to by the number of senior US posts held by people who are Jewish (Sec of State, US attorney)… I saw a tweet a couple of weeks ago listing quite a number.
“control” no.. “influence” yes. No idea how much.
(someone posted a bit above that sympathy to the Israeli cause has been embedded in a lot of US/US politics for some time… it’s unlikely to change)
Maybe it is more simple than we think?
We have all the quotes from as far back as 1915 onwards about what the "homeland" will eventually look like. It's no secret that a two state solution was never seriously on the agenda
We have quotes from likes of Netanyahu about bolstering support for Hamas as this would ensure no peace and two state solution.
The Arab world's dynamic has changed. Saudi is looking to open up to tourism.etc as they know the oil game won't be what it is in a few years. Even Turkey has good relationships with Israel and there was the whole Issue oil coming in to Israel reports via Turkey. Basically relationships are good between governments.
Is now the time to take the whole of the land?
Yeah I would definitely take any pro Palestinian content from Candace Owens with a huge pinch of salt because, knowing her history of vile antisemitism, it’s most likely not coming from a position of solidarity with the Palestinian cause.
Not so convinced that complexities aren't manufactured or created by outside forces. Just look at Egypt and all that's happened there.
The Arab springs?? Bashar al Assad
Make it centuries. It's a very, very old story.
She read the room, saw Israel's current PR disaster and is riding the wave for her own benefits. But it doesn't take away anything, to my eyes, from Finkelstein's take on what's happening there. He isn't a nobody and the arguments he makes have weight.
I personally think that he accepted to give her an interview not because he values her positions or intellect (you can see that she was completely overwhelmed and never able to really push him back in any meaningful way) but to reach an audience he normally wouldn't have access to. Spread the message, so to speak. He's been preaching in the desert about the Palestinian tragedy for decades and everything he said and predicted fell on (mostly) deaf ears. I believe that 10/7 is for him a lifetime opportunity to get his message across to the maximum amount of people.
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What complexities are manufactured from outside?
Interesting watch, he's extremely knowledgeable.
IDF evidence so far falls well short of al-Shifa hospital being Hamas HQ
Footage to date fails to prove Gaza complex was nerve centre for attacks on Israel, as military has claimed
Prior to their capture of Dar al-Shifa hospital, the Israel Defense Forces went to great lengths to depict the medical complex as a headquarters for Hamas, from where its attacks on Israel were planned.
The evidence produced so far falls well short of that. IDF videos have shown only modest collections of small arms, mostly assault rifles, recovered from the extensive medical complex.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ell-short-of-al-shifa-hospital-being-hamas-hq
Footage to date fails to prove Gaza complex was nerve centre for attacks on Israel, as military has claimed
Prior to their capture of Dar al-Shifa hospital, the Israel Defense Forces went to great lengths to depict the medical complex as a headquarters for Hamas, from where its attacks on Israel were planned.
The evidence produced so far falls well short of that. IDF videos have shown only modest collections of small arms, mostly assault rifles, recovered from the extensive medical complex.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ell-short-of-al-shifa-hospital-being-hamas-hq
Another day, another call for genocide from an Israeli.
Yeah sorry I should have made it clear that I was just referring Candace Owens and her attempts to demonise Israel. The pro Palestine cause is just a useful idiot to her. Even if I find myself agreeing with a particular/specific point she makes, or in this case the guest she has on, I think it’s a dangerous game sharing and spreading her content knowing her history.
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Israel’s view is hardly relevant. The consensus legal opinion of all major human rights orgs and the vast majority of world states is relevant.
Gaza also has access to international waters. But guess what, Israel patrols Gaza’s waters and prevents anything coming in or out under threat of death. So yeah, the occupying power has full obligation to supply Gaza with everything it needs.
The day Israel vacates Gaza’s waters, its airspace, and gives up its control of the Palestinian population registry, then we can reassess.
It is an uncomfortable truth that Palestinian intransigence on a two state solution has historically exceeded and pre-dated Israel's for obvious reasons both good and bad. The Palestinians were there first (discounting biblical claims) and they see Israel is a simple land grab. And the predominant religion is highly geared round a territory based premise.
That intransigence is what created Netanyahu and modern Likud and the modern Israeli settler mindset. Dialling it back is now going to be very difficult even if Palestinian culture were to experience an unprecedented change of heart on the subject. Which seems itself highly unlikely.
It may not be relevant to your moral or legal case, but it is the fact on the ground. Even if Israel were to do those things you list (which it won't) it would not allow power and water in sufficient amounts. And by the time a cease fire does happen, every permanent structure in Gaza will be rubble.
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Brilliant watch. Finkelstein is the master.
Shift the goalpost.
Where is the Command center?
Excuse me, but you stated that Israel has no obligation to give Gaza food or water or power despite currently actively PREVENTING any other way for it to enter (or be locally produced) by its occupation of Gazan waters and airspace. Your response is all over the place. Incoherent.
I did not believe the tweet first.
Then I double checked the UN website
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-195880/
and there it is
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It's not incoherent it simply contradicts your world view which is not based on the reality of the situation. Gaza cannot provide water for itself even in the best circumstances and certainly not now its desalination and power plants have been destroyed. Opening up the sea border or airspace would not alter that (even if Israel were to do that which it will not.) This is a classic water war of the kind taking place all over the global south, not least on the West Bank.
What obligation do you think Israel has? They are at war with Hamas. Hamas is widely recognised (accurately) as a terrorist organisation who have promised to repeat October 7 the first chance they get. As long as they are theoretically in charge of Gaza the Israelis don't have to lift a finger to help Gazans and nor will they. They will simply say international aid can deal with it and it is Egypt's problem to get it through. The UN can complain all they like but they cannot do a thing about it. And the Egyptians see Hamas as just as big a threat as the Israelis do.
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Great post and a perfectly valid opinion to hold, but I now personally think that 10/7 radically changed the game's rules.
I've never seen, in my lifetime at least, the US so worried from the get-go and the appeals to de-escalation starting from Biden's very first visit in Israel, despite the current bloodbath. Israel is absolutely playing into Hamas' hand right now and already handed them a "great victory", no matter what some posters might think and still persist, one month in, to categorize it as "an epic miscalculation". It's thanks to the US that we didn't see an even greater bloodbath, and probably a regional escalation.
Still, it will never change the fact that Hamas, using the most rudimentary methods and operating from the most monitored open-air prison in human history, managed in an absolutely gruesome way, to utterly shatter the myth of Israel's invincibility in the region that's been built in the last six decades. Hence the relentless and horrifying pounding of Gaza at the moment. People still don't realize what an impact 10/7 had and will have in the years to come, not only in the region but also worldwide.
It's a case that will be studied by historians, geopoliticians and in military academies for decades, if not centuries. And we will definitely feel its ripples in our lifetime.
I believe that the US understood that it can't allow Israel to go on this destructive path anymore. It acknowledged the fact that Netanyahu, who's a goner, and his current policy or anyone following his footsteps, is simply suicidal and would transform a crucial regional ally into an absolute liability. In this day and age, you just can't unconditionally support a government that has people like Ben Gvir and Smotrich in key governmental positions. Not even Israel, and not when you posture as a champion of democracy in the world. Israel might've gotten away with it until 10/7 but things are different now. There are after all, limits to horseshit.
Netanyahu's government thought of using the massacre as an opportunity to ethnically cleanse the Gazans once and for all by pushing them into the Sinai Desert. That's how low it stooped and how far the West was actually willing to run with until Egypt said, "Yeah, no.We know the drill. We take them in and they're then never allowed to come back. So, feck you. You broke it, you bought it."
Then we heard of so many kind-hearted people lamenting about how cruel the Arab countries are, because the most humane solution would've been to take in this stateless bunch of historical annoyances confined in the biggest open-air prison the world's ever seen. Spare them an even greater suffering from the most civilized, democratic and occupying country in the region that sadly sees itself forced to bomb and starve the shit out of them in self-defense. In order to get rid of the terrorist organization which they, the beacon of light in the region, have fed for decades in order to prevent the creation of a Palestinian state.
Not to exonerate the Arab dictators, who are a despicable and cowardly lot, but no one can pin on them what's happening in Gaza right now, nor their response to it.
By the way, the much touted right to self-defense can't be invoked here for two reasons: Palestine is not a recognized state and, more importantly, Israel is an occupying power. Here's the ICJ judgment dating from 2004. Again, you broke it, you bought it.
But I digress. The paradigm shift you rightly mention might not be visible just yet, at least not through the official discourse. However the magnitude of 10/7 is simply something no sane leader concerned can sweep under ther rug. To my eyes, there's something that's been fundamentally broken after the massacre and it means that there's no turning back. No return to the previous "status quo" in any form, no dilly dallying. I personally believe that we truly are witnessing a historical moment. Something has to be done now, simple as that. It will take time, years if not decades, but it really was a game changer, in my opinion.
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No need to apologize, I was the one who didn't make it clear enough.
Yeah, it's a valid point. I've read enough about Finkelstein to know that he's a voice worth listening to but also understand the reservations from people who only know her and not him.
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Only democracy in the middle east.
That's not true, majority of countries have not designated them as such.
The ones that can bring pressure on Israel have though. The opinion of the global south is irrelevant in Jerusalem's calculations. They have already discounted it as tainted by anti-colonialism and islam.
The wider point is that Hamas is a terrorist organisation by any sensible definition, setting aside the pejorative use of the term. That's why the Egyptians blockade Gaza as well as Israel. Which is not to deny that Israel might well be breaching international law as well and killing far more people in the process.
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North Korea in the Middle East.
Would be fair to say the US is at this point the only country with any power to affect any meaningful change, which is why they are taking the lead on negotiating a hostage release pause. Egypt and Qatar are also ancillary players. All other nations can only say things for the consumption of their own domestic and regional audiences. The Saudis for instance, are more or less locked out of this because the Qataris have taken the lead due to Hamas being based there. China can
Extremely harsh on North Korea.
Yes but even the US is circumscribed in what it can do politically. Islamist terror groups are not a popular cause in Washington whereas Israel is. That might well change if Trump becomes President again. He loathes Netanyahu.
The US is also constrained by its own sub-state politics. Biden is up for reelection next year and isn't going to do anything to estrange any large swath of voters to jump off before the election.
You can probably say better than me but I gather that young democrats are much more pro-Palestinian than in the past. But they're going to be more concerned about Trump than about the fate of Gaza? And their congressional heroes are all Democrat as well?
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Agreed.
Very good person to listen too. His take down of Alan Dershowitz is mesmerising. Alan's response post that dismantling was horrific.