Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

That_Bloke said:
Without the US the whole region would've been in flames right now, and Israel getting every single missile the Hezbollah and the Houthi have.
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Strongly disagree.

The reason the region is in flames is partly because of US geopolicy over the last half century. Helping toppling secular governments at the behest of Islamist factions, carrying out illegal invasions largely destabilising the region and allowing the vacant power vacuums to be filled by extremists.

Also it should be worth remembering that factions like Hamas and Hezbollah only exist because of Israel and hence the US' hegemonic policies, as is the whole existence of the Iranian Islamic republic (their prime funders and backers) who the US helped create as a resulting backlash from helping topple Mossadegh in the 50s.

When you had a monster like Kissinger pulling the strings then it would only have led to utter chaos and instability in the region.
 
VorZakone said:
What strikes me is Israel's risk tolerance there. Starting a war with Hezbollah seems excessively risky for Israel.
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They know Mommy US will always give them her unconditional support.

Netanyahu has been caught 2 decades ago on tape boasting about how he knew how to manipulate the Americans and toy with them. Once you have them in your pocket, you know the valets in the EU, including valet Nr 1 (the UK) will follow suit. There's an utter arrogance and incredible sense of superiority in the Netanyahu government that leads them to think that they literally can get away with murder. Not without reason.

The only thing that went wrong this time is that the US learned from its disastrous Iraq and Afghanistan expeditions, and with what's happening in Ukraine plus the China threat, they know that they couldn't let their spoiled brat push it too far. It's okay to go on a rampage against the Gazans, no one supports them anyway, we'll even give you everything you need for that, but Hezbollah is a no-no.

Without the US continuously supplying them with weapons and ammunitions as well as a feckton of money, there's no way Israel would've been able to carry out this massacre for more than one week.
 
Amir said:
How do those things connect?

The US dropped a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima, so is it perfectly conceivable that the Israelis would too?
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It's pretty clear. They're both aggressive military actors plausibly engaging in war crimes. If the question is "why would they make it so obvious?", pointing to the other, similar group making it obvious and suggesting that it's conceivable that they would act the same way is not a huge stretch. It doesn't mean it's the case, but it is plausible. Your comparison isn't the same.
 
But sure, let's engage with the argument anyway. If Israel was in the position of the US during WW2, it's more than conceivable that they too would have used the bombs. It's a meaningless comparison, but there we are.
 
nimic said:
It's pretty clear. They're both aggressive military actors plausibly engaging in war crimes. If the question is "why would they make it so obvious?", pointing to the other, similar group making it obvious and suggesting that it's conceivable that they would act the same way is not a huge stretch. It doesn't mean it's the case, but it is plausible. Your comparison isn't the same.
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Maybe, maybe not.

All I know is that the original claim is utter bullshit. Total fake news.
 
Kaos said:
Strongly disagree.

The reason the region is in flames is partly because of US geopolicy over the last half century. Helping toppling secular governments at the behest of Islamist factions, carrying out illegal invasions largely destabilising the region and allowing the vacant power vacuums to be filled by extremists.

Also it should be worth remembering that factions like Hamas and Hezbollah only exist because of Israel and hence the US' hegemonic policies, as is the whole existence of the Iranian Islamic republic (their prime funders and backers) who the US helped create as a resulting backlash from helping topple Mossadegh in the 50s.

When you had a monster like Kissinger pulling the strings then it would only have led to utter chaos and instability in the region.
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I'm not disputing that. The US have been an absolute blight to the Middle-East.

I'm only referring to the 10/7direct aftermath. Israel wanted to directly go in and if not for the US delaying them, we'd have now an even bigger mess.
 
Amir said:
This particular claim against the IDF is a bit off.

Anyone can claim anything, where's the evidence?
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I'm not buying it either and I really have no love for the IDF. But comparing Hiroshima to what's happening in Gaza is not quite appropriate. Not that Hiroshima ever was a glorious act of war, mind.
 
That_Bloke said:
I'm not buying it either and I really have no love for the IDF. But comparing Hiroshima to what's happening in Gaza is not quite appropriate. Not that Hiroshima ever was a glorious act of war, mind.
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When people spread baseless lies - and people here share it - I'm not interested in being appropriate.

The last page of this discussion is an utter waste of time.
 
RedSky said:
Are International Journalists allowed into Gaza without Israeli 'protection'?
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Clarissa Ward from CNN somehow went in without the IDF's "protection", and she didn't show that much. Aside from her, no one from the outside got in.

I wonder why.
 
That_Bloke said:
I'm not disputing that. The US have been an absolute blight to the Middle-East.

I'm only referring to the 10/7direct aftermath. Israel wanted to directly go in and if not for the US delaying them, we'd have now an even bigger mess.
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Again I'd have to disagree.

Israel are the monster they are precisely because of the US. I don't think the fact they could be worse is any consolation to the families of the 20,000 dead.

10/7 was a reality because of the conditions Israel, and hence the US created. The fact they're supposedly trying to reel them in is only for them to save face publicly. The fact they're stopping short of supporting any call for a ceasefire is a pretty damning indictment in their role in this carnage.

In short the US doesn't care about civilian casualties, it cares about how it's being perceived as an enabler for this carnage.
 
RedSky said:
Any war crimes. Saw someone mention earlier that there's no evidence so the story must be untrue. How are we meant to get the evidence when International Journalists can't get access and Palestine Journalists are being murdered en mass.
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Yeah, that's pretty much why Israel doesn't let anyone in.

Not for the first time, mind. They've been doing it for decades and have a history of targeting journalists, especially when they're Arabs because they know there won't be that much of a backlash worldwide. 101 (and counting) have been killed in two months, more than in any conflict since WWII, the majority of them with their whole families in night airstrikes. It's absolutely deliberate and would've never been tolerated by the freedom merchants if it was any other country. But it's Israel killing Arabs, so it's okay.

But I do share the skepticism about the mass graves in Gaza. Not because the IDF does shy from war crimes, it's an integral part of their RoE, but because it's just dumb. It leaves them open for something they just can't explain or handwave away, even by western standards when it comes to Palestinians.
 
That_Bloke said:
But I do share the skepticism about the mass graves in Gaza. Not because the IDF does shy from war crimes, it's an integral part of their RoE, but because it's just dumb. It leaves them open for something they just can't explain or handwave away, even by western standards when it comes to Palestinians.
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Forget the mass graves. It's the idea that the IDF would arrest people, hold them in camps, then execute them in masses.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
BBC

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the Gaza war has come at a "very heavy price" for his side. The military says 14 more soldiers killed in the Palestinian territory since Friday, bringing the total of the ground assault to 153.

You should see the other guy…
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Its been hard on the Golani brigade of the IDF, they had to pull back the 13th battalion of the Golani because it lost many high rank officers. They lost 8 officiers in one day a week ago.
 
Amir said:
Forget the mass graves. It's the idea that the IDF would arrest people, hold them in camps, then execute them in masses.
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I don't really understand why this would be so difficult to imagine the IDF doing? The IDF has not only committed documented heinous crimes in the past 10 weeks, but it has also conducted multiple high-profile acts that could be deemed strategic mistakes and against their interest. Mass executions are not a far-fetched prospect, the UN Human Rights Office has stated it has information regarding mass executions, including the alleged site and time and details of how it was done. To disregard it as 'baseless lies' is to dismiss that there is evidence for it, and to claim that the idea of it is perhaps unlikely is to ignore the stunning number of previous red lines crossed in targeting of civilians in the past 10 weeks.
 
jadaba said:
I don't really understand why this would be so difficult to imagine the IDF doing? The IDF has not only committed documented heinous crimes in the past 10 weeks, but it has also conducted multiple high-profile acts that could be deemed strategic mistakes and against their interest. Mass executions are not a far-fetched prospect, the UN Human Rights Office has stated it has information regarding mass executions, including the alleged site and time and details of how it was done. To disregard it as 'baseless lies' is to dismiss that there is evidence for it, and to claim that the idea of it is perhaps unlikely is to ignore the stunning number of previous red lines crossed in targeting of civilians in the past 10 weeks.
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If it was being done in my name, I'd also be in denial about lots of things. If it's true it wouldn't be inconsistent with what we've seen so far. War crimes right left and center.
 
jadaba said:
I don't really understand why this would be so difficult to imagine the IDF doing? The IDF has not only committed documented heinous crimes in the past 10 weeks, but it has also conducted multiple high-profile acts that could be deemed strategic mistakes and against their interest. Mass executions are not a far-fetched prospect, the UN Human Rights Office has stated it has information regarding mass executions, including the alleged site and time and details of how it was done. To disregard it as 'baseless lies' is to dismiss that there is evidence for it, and to claim that the idea of it is perhaps unlikely is to ignore the stunning number of previous red lines crossed in targeting of civilians in the past 10 weeks.
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Right, where's the evidence?

I'm not blind. the IDF are no angels. But that's not something that they do. Pure and simple.

I get how the IDF looks like from the outside. In reality, it's a bunch of people most of whom simply believe they are doing what they must in order to protect their country, their family, their friends and their way of life - even if some of the things they do is way over the top and way too deadly. But arresting people and then just killing them in masses, that's a whole new level. That's not something an average IDF soldier or officer can find reason in. And it's the sort of illegal order soldiers are taught they must refuse if they are given it.
 
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maniak said:
If it was being done in my name, I'd also be in denial about lots of things. If it's true it wouldn't be inconsistent with what we've seen so far. War crimes right left and center.
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The thing is I recall that the same poster had, in the aftermath of the 7th October attacks, admitted that he wants to see security for Israel no matter what the cost would be for Gazans. I understand the human need to deny the plausibility of horrific reports when they are committed by one's own 'side', especially when it's for a cause that a person believes to be noble and right. But there should also be the recognition that when one lends their support of a campaign regardless of the cost to the other side, then these are the sort of crimes that such a campaign may entail. So when detailed accusations of such a crime emerge they cannot be dismissed in such a way.
 
Amir said:
Right, where's the evidence?

I'm not blind. the IDF are no angels. But that's not something that they do. Pure and simple.

I get how the IDF looks like from the outside. In reality, it's a bunch of people most of whom simply believe they are doing what they must in order to protect their country, their family, their friends and their way of life - even if some of the things they do is way over the top and way too deadly. But arresting people and then just killing them in masses, that's a whole new level. That's not something an average IDF soldier or officer can find reason in. And it's the sort of illegal order soldiers are taught they must refuse if they are given it.
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Here's a statement from the UN Human Rights Office made on one possible mass execution. It states it has confirmed that the killings occurred, and demands an investigation into how they were killed: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city.

From a couple of weeks ago, here is an NGO statement reporting that Palestinians had been detained and later executed, some after their release: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...cting-field-executions-and-mass-killings-enar

Regarding how the IDF would look like to the outside, the exact same word-for-word description could be used to describe militants in Hamas, and for many armies or armed groups, so they're not immune from committing war crimes regardless of how just they believe their cause to be. An average IDF soldier may not be trigger-happy in other times, but after the 7th October and the terrifying rhetoric by those who are running this war, it's pretty easy to see that the sort of environment in which mass executions occur has been entirely enabled.

As I wrote in another post, the IDF have gone far beyond normal conflict red lines and serious voices have warned them they're acting in a manner detrimental to their own interest, and that's why I don't believe that the idea that they just wouldn't commit mass killings 'because it's not something they'd do'. I would've found the idea that the IDF shoots 3 unarmed men waving a white flag who turned out to be hostages to be completely implausible, but it happened. Is it so unbelievable that in this same environment the IDF wouldn't commit mass executions?
 
Amir said:
Right, where's the evidence?

I'm not blind. the IDF are no angels. But that's not something that they do. Pure and simple.

I get how the IDF looks like from the outside. In reality, it's a bunch of people most of whom simply believe they are doing what they must in order to protect their country, their family, their friends and their way of life - even if some of the things they do is way over the top and way too deadly. But arresting people and then just killing them in masses, that's a whole new level. That's not something an average IDF soldier or officer can find reason in. And it's the sort of illegal order soldiers are taught they must refuse if they are given it.
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Don't know about the whole detention camps and mass killings per se.

But your write up of the IDF is something. There are literally articles, videos and podcasts about ex IDF saying what the were trained to do. Including vids etc of current ones laughing and sharing atrocities.

I'll probably get grief for this again, but I don't know how to put pics up on here, and I don't want to because they are awful. However I have pics sent to me of people zip tied and shot in the head on the ground in Gaza. Men, women and children.

People arrested and tortured and then shot.

The IDF are committing war crimes and not this nicey nice defenders of their way or life you want to portray.
 
jadaba said:
Here's a statement from the UN Human Rights Office made on one possible mass execution. It states it has confirmed that the killings occurred, and demands an investigation into how they were killed: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...rights-office-opt-unlawful-killings-gaza-city.

From a couple of weeks ago, here is an NGO statement reporting that Palestinians had been detained and later executed, some after their release: https://reliefweb.int/report/occupi...cting-field-executions-and-mass-killings-enar

Regarding how the IDF would look like to the outside, the exact same word-for-word description could be used to describe militants in Hamas, and for many armies or armed groups, so they're not immune from committing war crimes regardless of how just they believe their cause to be. An average IDF soldier may not be trigger-happy in other times, but after the 7th October and the terrifying rhetoric by those who are running this war, it's pretty easy to see that the sort of environment in which mass executions occur has been entirely enabled.

As I wrote in another post, the IDF have gone far beyond normal conflict red lines and serious voices have warned them they're acting in a manner detrimental to their own interest, and that's why I don't believe that the idea that they just wouldn't commit mass killings 'because it's not something they'd do'. I would've found the idea that the IDF shoots 3 unarmed men waving a white flag who turned out to be hostages to be completely implausible, but it happened. Is it so unbelievable that in this same environment the IDF wouldn't commit mass executions?
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I'm still not seeing any sort of evidence.

I certainly won't rule out the odd soldier going off book, I'm sure it happens, but taking people into concentration camps and then mass executing them requires planning from above. It's not something the odd hot-headed soldier can do. And it's very, very different to a soldier hastily shooting the Israeli hostages last weekend.
 
Roane said:
Don't know about the whole detention camps and mass killings per se.

But your write up of the IDF is something. There are literally articles, videos and podcasts about ex IDF saying what the were trained to do. Including vids etc of current ones laughing and sharing atrocities.

I'll probably get grief for this again, but I don't know how to put pics up on here, and I don't want to because they are awful. However I have pics sent to me of people zip tied and shot in the head on the ground in Gaza. Men, women and children.

People arrested and tortured and then shot.

The IDF are committing war crimes and not this nicey nice defenders of their way or life you want to portray.
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I'm sure they are.

And some of those soldiers are seeing the war in Gaza as an opportunity of revenge, and also see everyone in Gaza as Hamas terrorrists or at least Hamas supporters.

I cannot deny that, and I won't.

I'm just saying the concentration camp and mass execution story is a lie.

And yes, most of the IDF soldiers are just ordinary, non-evil people, who believe they are doing what they must following October 7.
 
How do we know how many Brits have gone over to take part of the IOFs crimes?

Can they just return to the UK afterwards?
 
Amir said:
I'm sure they are.

And some of those soldiers are seeing the war in Gaza as an opportunity of revenge, and also see everyone in Gaza as Hamas terrorrists or at least Hamas supporters.

I cannot deny that, and I won't.

I'm just saying the concentration camp and mass execution story is a lie.

And yes, most of the IDF soldiers are just ordinary, non-evil people, who believe they are doing what they must following October 7.
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The way you framed that gives Hamas excuse for just about anything they ever did or were willing to do. They had their fair share of events like that throughout history even before October 7, and especially after.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
The way you framed that gives Hamas excuse for just about anything they ever did or were willing to do. They had their fair share of events like that throughout history even before October 7, and especially after.
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And that's probably why this is been going on for ages and will go on forever.

Both sides feel they are 100% in the right.
 
Amir said:
I'm sure they are.

And some of those soldiers are seeing the war in Gaza as an opportunity of revenge, and also see everyone in Gaza as Hamas terrorrists or at least Hamas supporters.

I cannot deny that, and I won't.

I'm just saying the concentration camp and mass execution story is a lie.

And yes, most of the IDF soldiers are just ordinary, non-evil people, who believe they are doing what they must following October 7.
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What about before October the 7th?

Or do we ignore the testimonies of IDF soldiers when they say they used the Innocents in the West Bank as "training" for real events that might occur?

You can check back when 10.7 happened. I was amongst the first to condemn Hamas. I still have a strong dislike of Hamas but I'm currently not calling them terrorists. The real terrorists are Israel and the IDF from their own testimonies backed by the terrorist USA.
 
Roane said:
What about before October the 7th?

Or do we ignore the testimonies of IDF soldiers when they say they used the Innocents in the West Bank as "training" for real events that might occur?

You can check back when 10.7 happened. I was amongst the first to condemn Hamas. I still have a strong dislike of Hamas but I'm currently not calling them terrorists. The real terrorists are Israel and the IDF from their own testimonies backed by the terrorist USA.
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So being a terrorist is a zero-sum game?

I think it is eminently fair & currently accurate to call all three parties 'terrorists.'
 
calodo2003 said:
So being a terrorist is a zero-sum game?

I think it is eminently fair & currently accurate to call all three parties 'terrorists.'
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I don't. The reason is simple. Hamas are an Israeli Govt invention. As has been evidenced many times over on here from statements by likes of Netanyahu himself.

Thee isn't three parties. The Israeli Govt, IDF and Hamas are one.
 
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