Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[VorZakone]

People will argue it's "bad optics" for Biden to be tough on Israel after the worst massacre in Israel's history. I've seen that argument made elsewhere (Reddit and such).

But the fundamental problem here is that October 7th in itself is not an isolated event. It's another round of violence in a conflict that's been going on for decades and one of the two sides is longing for a state of their own. As long as Israel actively tries to prevent a Palestinian state, we'll have more violence in the future. That's not to justify October 7th (obviously) but the problem here is bigger than October 7th. The problem is the Palestinians don't have their own state and are dominated and mistreated heavily by Israel.

The EU won't solve this. Russia won't solve it. China won't solve it. Iran won't solve it. American leadership is needed here.

 

[Amir]

Israel is a democracy, the voters need to take some of the blame.

You can say the same about voters in the US (voting for Trump) or the UK (voting for Brexit).

Unfornuately many people are... idiots?

 

[Amir]

The Netanyahu government still hasn't agreed on it either, not officially anyway and there ae always threats from the likes of Ben Gvir that he would bring down the government if they agreed to stopping the war.

I don't know where this one goes as Netanyahu is talking, as usual, in two voices: What he says publically is no to releasing thousands of terrorists or to agreeing a ceasefire. And yet, obviously, that is the only deal on the table and Israel clearly isn't walking away from it.

I'm not sure he's got the votes in his govenment to agree to such a deal though. And I'm not sure he actually wants the deal, as it might cost him his govenment. I don't know how he's going to maneuver this one.

 

[That_Bloke]

Bad treatment of the Palestinians pre dates Netanyahu by a long time. This hate of Palestinians is embedded in Israeli's.

I've never disputed that, on the contrary.

Occupation degrades the offender as much as the offended. Hate is born of fear and ignorance, and both have been carefully instilled for decades.

 

[Jazz]

@Kaos @Sweet Square

Thanks for the replies. I'm aware of the situation with AIPAC etc, but I'm still puzzled, seeing as more people are now able to see what is going on. Why would you then continue the same policy? Do they really think we're going to forget their complicity in this genocide? The IDF have been filming themselves committing criminal acts and US and their allies really believe that people aren't seeing this and being revolted by their actions?

I think with all the crimes being committed for all to see, that any other situation and they would have reversed course, if even just to save face for a while, but they are doubling down on their support so I have to believe there is something else going on that we just can't see. Israel depends on the US, there is no way, the United States can't reign them in if they wanted to and still maintain a relationship with them because like what is Israel going to do without all that US taxpayer money?

 

[Jazz]

I don't know where this one goes as Netanyahu is talking, as usual, in two voices: What he says publically is no to releasing thousands of terrorists or to agreeing a ceasefire. And yet, obviously, that is the only deal on the table and Israel clearly isn't walking away from it.

I'm not sure he's got the votes in his govenment to agree to such a deal though. And I'm not sure he actually wants the deal, as it might cost him his govenment. I don't know how he's going to maneuver this one.

And the women and children detained by the Israeli government? Is he saying no to releasing them too?

Children Amir, what the hell are they doing with children in prison? I have seen footage of them with a 4 year old boy as well. Is he classified as a terrorist too?

 

[africanspur]

If you list the biggest cnut from that list, Biden comes top, then Bush, then Obama, then Clinton. Trump is the the least biggest cnut. Would you believe it. Imho of course.

How have you come to that conclusion?

 

[That_Bloke]

@Kaos @Sweet Square

Thanks for the replies. I'm aware of the situation with AIPAC etc, but I'm still puzzled, seeing as more people are now able to see what is going on. Why would you then continue the same policy? Do they really think we're going to forget their complicity in this genocide? The IDF have been filming themselves committing criminal acts and US and their allies really believe that people aren't seeing this and being revolted by their actions?

I think with all the crimes being committed for all to see, that any other situation and they would have reversed course, if even just to save face for a while, but they are doubling down on their support so I have to believe there is something else going on that we just can't see. Israel depends on the US, there is no way, the United States can't reign them in if they wanted to and still maintain a relationship with them because like what is Israel going to do without all that US taxpayer money?

That will only happen when the US finally gets rid of all lobbies and has a president able to look past their next mandate.

 

[VorZakone]

DUBAI, Feb 2 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia would be willing to accept a political commitment from Israel to create a Palestinian state, rather than anything more binding, in a bid to get a defence pact with Washington approved before the U.S. presidential election, three sources said.

Months of U.S.-led diplomacy to get Saudi Arabia to normalise relations with Israel and recognise the country for the first time were shelved by Riyadh in October in the face of mounting Arab anger over the war in Gaza.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-pact-ahead-presidential-election-2024-02-02/

 

[VorZakone]

The Hebrew tweet translated:

When we thought that all the records of lack of self-awareness had already been broken, a minister in the Netanyahu government compares a foreign statesman to Chamberlain.

 

[Jazz]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-pact-ahead-presidential-election-2024-02-02/

Netayanhu and his cohorts word of commitment don't mean a thing Saudi Arabia aint shit if they go ahead on this basis. Feel even worse for the Palestinians as no one wants to help it seems.. (sigh)

 

[Jazz]

That will only happen when the US finally get rid of all lobbies and have a president able to look past their next mandate.

Unfortunately they're even here in England as well...
All these politicians are just full of shit.

 

[Amir]

And the women and children detained by the Israeli government? Is he saying no to releasing them too?

Children Amir, what the hell are they doing with children in prison? I have seen footage of them with a 4 year old boy as well. Is he classified as a terrorist too?

I don't know about that, unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure most Israelis would see them as terrorists as well. Such is the dehumanization of Palestenians in Israeli eyes.

 

[Dumbstar]

How have you come to that conclusion?

I'm quite old now. I've seen what all of them have done abroad. It's my opinion as I mentioned.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

The EU won't solve this. Russia won't solve it. China won't solve it. Iran won't solve it. American leadership is needed here.

At the same time, isn't it unfair to pin that need of leadership on one geopolitical superpower when the others are basically relinquishing their own duties as geopolitical players? I just have a hard time finding sense in blaming the only big player still willing to navigate through that maze while the others are not even attempting anything like the bystanders they are.

 

[maniak]

You can say the same about voters in the US (voting for Trump) or the UK (voting for Brexit).

Unfornuately many people are... idiots?

I can and I do.

 

[maniak]

At the same time, isn't it unfair to pin that need of leadership on one geopolitical superpower when the others are basically relinquishing their own duties as geopolitical players? I just have a hard time finding sense in blaming the only big player still willing to navigate through that maze while the others are not even attempting anything like the bystanders they are.

What other superpowers are you referring to?

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

What other superpowers are you referring to?

Did you even read the post that I quoted? The fact that Russia and China do next to nothing except yapping at best speaks volumes of their own.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

They almost prioritise Israel over the United States. Biden certainly does. It is bizarre the lengths they are going to, even spitting in the face of international law. Well I never want to hear them or most Western governments ever again talk about human rights or start accusing other countries of terrorism because I won't be listening. Bloody cruel hypocrites.

There's a lot of miscalculation, IMO.

Biden is a politician from a different era. I don't think he understood how this would play out among Democratic voters in 2024. I also suspect that neither him nor his administration really understood how little Israel would care about keeping any pretense of not being all in on destroying Gaza.

 

[Pintu]

I don't know about that, unfortunately, but I'm pretty sure most Israelis would see them as terrorists as well. Such is the dehumanization of Palestenians in Israeli eyes.

Have you seen this?



How is this acceptable to the israeli society? Anyone still believes this the best way to bring about security?

 

[nimic]

 

[maniak]

Did you even read the post that I quoted?

I just wanted to make sure you were comparing the US to china and russia in terms of responsibility towards world peace. Two dictatorships that treat their own citizens like numbers in an excel sheet and the self proclaimed world's greatest democracy, defender of peace and human rights.

Why would people expect more from the US than china or russia?

At least the mask is almost completely off and people will start having the same expectations. In this specific conflict, I think even the biggest critics of american foreign policy are stunned with what's happening, supporting genocide and not giving two fecks. Bold strategy.

 

[The Corinthian]

At the same time, isn't it unfair to pin that need of leadership on one geopolitical superpower when the others are basically relinquishing their own duties as geopolitical players? I just have a hard time finding sense in blaming the only big player still willing to navigate through that maze while the others are not even attempting anything like the bystanders they are.

The US is providing military aid by the billions to Israel as they commit their genocide.

 

[maniak]

The US is providing military aid by the billions to Israel as they commit their genocide.

What an unfair comment, haven't you heard that even without all those billions and political support in the UN and pretty much everywhere else, netanyahu would still be doing the same because the US have no real power or influence?

 

[VorZakone]

At the same time, isn't it unfair to pin that need of leadership on one geopolitical superpower when the others are basically relinquishing their own duties as geopolitical players? I just have a hard time finding sense in blaming the only big player still willing to navigate through that maze while the others are not even attempting anything like the bystanders they are.

I understand what you mean, I really do.

But the biggest influence on Israel is the US. The US is the biggest provider of military aid and diplomatic protection. The lead must come from the US. And if the US asks the Chinese, Russians etc to join the peace effort and those parties refuse, it'll reflect bad on them anyway. Now the situation reflects bad on the West too.

 

[Pintu]

This is surprising.. We were hearing in early December that they’d already killed many of Hamas military leaders and were closing on on Sinwar himself.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

How could China or Russia possibly influence the conflict, I'd really like to know. By bombing Israel maybe?

The whole point is that Israel is banking on US support to commit genocide, if there wasn't such support, Israel would be far less willing to commit to such atrocities, and such atrocitied would also get much bigger response from Egypt and Iran.

It is ridiculous to pin anything on anyone but USA (apart from Israel), not actually ridiculous but either extremely naive or dishonest if there is no naivety involved.

 

[Jazz]

There's a lot of miscalculation, IMO.

Biden is a politician from a different era. I don't think he understood how this would play out among Democratic voters in 2024. I also suspect that neither him nor his administration really understood how little Israel would care about keeping any pretense of not being all in on destroying Gaza.

I actually disagree here. I think Biden, Blinken and co knew exactly how the Israeli government would behave imho. What neither Biden and co and their friends in Israel didn't take into consideration was social media, and the reaction of the public (or most of them anyway).

 

[Jazz]

This is surprising.. We were hearing in early December that they’d already killed many of Hamas military leaders and were closing on on Sinwar himself.

The IDF are shit at ground warfare (or whatever the correct phrase is). If they didn't have bombs supplied by the US, and would only fight Hamas instead of killing women and children, the 'war' would already be over.

 

[Amir]

Have you seen this?



How is this acceptable to the israeli society? Anyone still believes this the best way to bring about security?

I have read this last night and it's absolutely terrible. I don't know how any of the people involved could have looked at her and do nothing.

Haaretz is probably the only media outlet to publish it. So most of the Israeli society won't even know about it.

 

[Amir]

The IDF are shit at ground warfare (or whatever the correct phrase is). If they didn't have bombs supplied by the US, and would only fight Hamas instead of killing women and children, the 'war' would already be over.

I don't think that's the case. But the IDF can't be everywhere at the same time and it moves on to other areas, Hamas returns to the ones that it cleared.

That's the price of not having any sort of real plan for the future.

 

[Idxomer]

I don't know where this one goes as Netanyahu is talking, as usual, in two voices: What he says publically is no to releasing thousands of terrorists or to agreeing a ceasefire. And yet, obviously, that is the only deal on the table and Israel clearly isn't walking away from it.

I'm not sure he's got the votes in his govenment to agree to such a deal though. And I'm not sure he actually wants the deal, as it might cost him his govenment. I don't know how he's going to maneuver this one.

I think he's in a loss-loss situation and at the moment seems to be just buying himself time without a clear plan.

 

[Idxomer]

 

[Amir]

I think he's in a loss-loss situation and at the moment seems to be just buying himself time without a clear plan.

Yep, he's been stalling for a while and even before the war, buying time was his usual modus operandi, but time is running out on that now. Unless Hamas itself causes the deal to collapse.

 

[berbatrick]

At the same time, isn't it unfair to pin that need of leadership on one geopolitical superpower when the others are basically relinquishing their own duties as geopolitical players? I just have a hard time finding sense in blaming the only big player still willing to navigate through that maze while the others are not even attempting anything like the bystanders they are.

THEY ARE THE MAIN WEAPONS SUPPLIERS AND DIPLOMATIC BACKERS OF ISRAEL. IS A LOBOTOMY A REQUIREMENT FOR ALL POSTING ON THIS SUBJECT????

 

[berbatrick]

The obvious answer to this is to refer to the ~1000 US citizens being bombed, executed, starved in Gaza now, but we all understand that they're not real Americans. The real telling answer is that the US did nothing while the IDF squelched the no-Arab-blood-quantum white woman Rachel Corrie under a bulldozer and did nothing again while the IDF celebrates Pancake Day in her honour.

 

[That_Bloke]

THEY ARE THE MAIN WEAPONS SUPPLIERS AND DIPLOMATIC BACKERS OF ISRAEL. IS A LOBOTOMY A REQUIREMENT FOR ALL POSTING ON THIS SUBJECT????

I wouldn't bother. There isn't a single take of his on international matters and current events that doesn't miss the mark by a few miles.

You can a learn a lot from him about immature peoples from certain non-western nations though.

 

[berbatrick]

 

[africanspur]

1.2 million tibetans out of 6 million died in the invasion and annexation in Tibet, on top of many injured, mutilated and tortured. 6000 monasteries and temples were burned completely demolished. How many Tibetan terrorists have you ever heard off or Tibetan blowing up Chinese cafés, schoolbusses etc.

No not that the tibetans Buddhists way is the only way, just that its an example that it doesnt have to be that way or there are examples you can do better. But i think that the 2 state solution, which tbh isn't a guaranteed solution to peace, has been dead for a long time now and will be off the table for decades.

Very few, if any. The Tibetans are a great people I'm sure and good for them.

I didn't say that Hamas is the only possible outcome of a desperate people. I said that I don't find it that surprising that such people can turn to such groups and I used the examples of Europeans turning to far right political groups because their incredibly high standard of living by global standards has dropped slightly to still be amongst the very highest levels of living in the world.

The same could also be said for Israel of course, who choose increasingly right wing and extreme governments and overwhelming violence. Guess its more OK when its the stronger party though.

 

[Idxomer]