Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Read that 5 countries will resume funding for the UNRWA, Canada is among them apparently.
 
A historical question: how could Jews purchase land in the 20s and 30s during British rule? Who did they buy the land from? Palestinian landowners?
 
That_Bloke said:
This line of thinking is exactly the kind of slippery slope that leads to making [insert whichever group one dilikes, disapproves, or is afraid of] a legitimate target for collective punishment and even genocide, so I'd be careful with that.

People aren't inherently bad or evil, bar a few exceptions. Since its inception, there's been an enormous amount of propaganda and indoctrination in Israel, starting with schools, to instil and cultivate the idea that there is no Palestine to speak of and there can be no peace with the Palestinians. For example, it is forbidden to teach or talk about the Nakba in schools. The Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular can never be trusted and will throttle you if given the slightest chance. So better keep your boot on their throat, no matter what.

Hence the pathological need to demonstrate might in order to deter any real or perceived hostile intent from the neighbours, especially the one that you currently occupy. If you add to that the millenia long traumatic past of the Jews and the countless persecutions they've been victim of, it's easy to understand where they coming from and how they felt after 10/7. To be clear, understanding is not justifying. However you can't solve a problem without coming to grips with what caused it in the first place.

One also has to take into account that Israel is a very young country, much like the Arab ones. What's happening in Israel/Palestine really isn't new if we roll back the centuries. The birth of a nation is a struggle, seldom bloodless or without extreme prejudice towards a group, or even an entire population, accompanied by a thorough rewriting of History by the victor. It literally is a do or die, for both Palestine and Israel.

That's why I personally think that without a third party jumping in, one of the two sides is condemned to disappear, one way or or another. Given the current balance of power, the answer is pretty much obvious. The only question is are we going to sit and watch or eventually do something about it?
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Whole I agree with your overall point that people aren't deserving of genocide or harm as a result of their government's actions, serious questions do still need to be raised over the psyche of Israeli society as a whole when you consider recent polling:





It's so disconcerting when you see the atrocities being carried out and the population of the perpetrating country not being moved a single inch. Where is the humanity and empathy when children are dying, let alone everything else?

Also, yes, Israel is a young country, but we surely can't compare a country that was created out of a UN mandate to others that had been created during the age of empires? And even then, you're not seeing atrocities being committed by other young nations today, basket cases though some of them maybe (looking at you, Pakistan)
 
rotherham_red said:
Whole I agree with your overall point that people aren't deserving of genocide or harm as a result of their government's actions, serious questions do still need to be raised over the psyche of Israeli society as a whole when you consider recent polling:





It's so disconcerting when you see the atrocities being carried out and the population of the perpetrating country not being moved a single inch. Where is the humanity and empathy when children are dying, let alone everything else?

Also, yes, Israel is a young country, but we surely can't compare a country that was created out of a UN mandate to others that had been created during the age of empires? And even then, you're not seeing atrocities being committed by other young nations today, basket cases though some of them maybe (looking at you, Pakistan)
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Not sure that Pakistan is really the best example here.
 
That_Bloke said:
This line of thinking is exactly the kind of slippery slope that leads to making [insert whichever group one dilikes, disapproves, or is afraid of] a legitimate target for collective punishment and even genocide, so I'd be careful with that.

People aren't inherently bad or evil, bar a few exceptions. Since its inception, there's been an enormous amount of propaganda and indoctrination in Israel, starting with schools, to instil and cultivate the idea that there is no Palestine to speak of and there can be no peace with the Palestinians. For example, it is forbidden to teach or talk about the Nakba in schools. The Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular can never be trusted and will throttle you if given the slightest chance. So better keep your boot on their throat, no matter what.
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(Obviously) I don't think there is anything genetically deterministic about this conflict. But I think blaming the leaders, done by a lot of well-meaning people on both sides, is not fully correct.

On the Israeli side, the right-wing shift is well-documented: from election outcomes (last cycle's extreme untouchable becomes the next cycle's coalition partner and then a respectable moderate, rinse and repeat for decades), from opinion polling (if the public was in charge, the IDF would be more cruel), and from any number of vox pop style-videos.

Public polling from the West Bank shows massive support for Hamas and the concept of armed resistance. While support for Hamas is lower (but still >50% iirc) in Gaza, possibly because of what Israel did after 10/7, I think - without solid proof - that a lot of the more sordid stories of 10/7 come from the later stages, when the general Gazan population (rather than Hamas fighters) broke through the fence. There are hints of this in some articles and in the language used in a recent Hamas document.

Overall I'd say the leadership of both sides (excluding the very unpopular Abbas) is at least reflective of their populations, if not more moderate.

And yes, it is because of nurture not nature. It would not make much sense if it was the other way. I can see a somewhat similar process happening in the country where I'm from.
I don't know how reversible these things are, especially in the short term. Even the famed German "memory" got genuine popular support after two decades of official looking-the-other-way, when the next generation, removed from both the hate propaganda and the war, could look back at the monstrous past.
 
VorZakone said:
A historical question: how could Jews purchase land in the 20s and 30s during British rule? Who did they buy the land from? Palestinian landowners?
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Almost two thirds came from 'foreign' landowners (obviously the concept of this was quite different back in the early 20th century than it is now), as well from organisations like businesses or religious institutions etc.

Even earlier than the 20s, I'm actually not totally sure. Maybe @2cents can provide some input.
 
VorZakone said:
A historical question: how could Jews purchase land in the 20s and 30s during British rule? Who did they buy the land from? Palestinian landowners?
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From this book by Hillel Cohen, one of the best historians of the Mandate period:

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africanspur said:
Not sure that Pakistan is really the best example here.
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Pakistan isn't doing anything remotely as bad as what Israel is doing, which is my point. It's also a young nation and while it's a shit show, you're not seeing the wholesale apartheid you see in the West Bank, let alone what we're seeing in Gaza.

It's a shit hole with a host of communal, economic and social problems but even they haven't stooped to Israel's level.
 
rotherham_red said:
Pakistan isn't doing anything remotely as bad as what Israel is doing, which is my point. It's also a young nation and while it's a shit show, you're not seeing the wholesale apartheid you see in the West Bank, let alone what we're seeing in Gaza.

It's a shit hole with a host of communal, economic and social problems but even they haven't stooped to Israel's level.
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And what about Bangladesh?
 
Jazz said:
@Kaos @Sweet Square

Thanks for the replies. I'm aware of the situation with AIPAC etc, but I'm still puzzled, seeing as more people are now able to see what is going on. Why would you then continue the same policy? Do they really think we're going to forget their complicity in this genocide? The IDF have been filming themselves committing criminal acts and US and their allies really believe that people aren't seeing this and being revolted by their actions?

I think with all the crimes being committed for all to see, that any other situation and they would have reversed course, if even just to save face for a while, but they are doubling down on their support so I have to believe there is something else going on that we just can't see. Israel depends on the US, there is no way, the United States can't reign them in if they wanted to and still maintain a relationship with them because like what is Israel going to do without all that US taxpayer money?
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Imo Biden summed things up with his comments on the air strikes against the Houthis

Reporter - Are the air strikes working ?
Biden - No
Reporter - Will the strikes continues ?
Biden - Yes

There really isn’t any long term planning. The senile old man who face plants into ice cream sundays really is in charge. It’s the same old method of bomb and bomb some more. If you disagree then your a Russian or Chinese agent according to Nancy Pelosi. The democratic party leadership is dying corpse. The American Empire is on the back foot(It seems desperate to fight 3 global wars at the same time - Middle East, Ukraine/Russia and China).


Plus then add in things like -

The IDF clearly struggling to make any gains against Hamas. Partly due to their 4th reich racism against Palestinians meaning they keep underestimating the resistance. And every second IDF recruit seem to be a tik tok addict who is in sexual relationship with their Tesla car.

Technology advancements which has meant the Houthis have control over a vital pathway of global capitalism without the need of a navy.

The whole situation is completely fecked.
 
VorZakone said:
A historical question: how could Jews purchase land in the 20s and 30s during British rule? Who did they buy the land from? Palestinian landowners?
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The thing is that before on the 1880s, only 2% of the population born om the territory was born jewish and another 3% was jewish immigrated from europe meaning that on the UN resolution they gave 55% the territory to a 30% jewish population that were mainly europeans. So the west giving land to the westerners just because
 
4bars said:
The thing is that before on the 1880s, only 2% of the population born om the territory was born jewish and another 3% was jewish immigrated from europe meaning that on the UN resolution they gave 55% the territory to a 30% jewish population that were mainly europeans. So the west giving land to the westerners just because
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This is not an answer to my question though.
 
VorZakone said:
This is not an answer to my question though.
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Thought you got answered below and continue with a sidetrack of who did own the land before and after the decades you mentioned and the unfairness of the UN deal. But see it was not of your likening

But to satisfy you:

In the 1930s, most of the land was bought from landowners. Of the land that the Jews bought, 52.6% were bought from non-Palestinian landowners, 24.6% from Palestinian landowners, 13.4% from government, churches, and foreign companies, and only 9.4% from fellaheen (farmers).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine
 
rotherham_red said:
Whole I agree with your overall point that people aren't deserving of genocide or harm as a result of their government's actions, serious questions do still need to be raised over the psyche of Israeli society as a whole when you consider recent polling:

*snip-

It's so disconcerting when you see the atrocities being carried out and the population of the perpetrating country not being moved a single inch. Where is the humanity and empathy when children are dying, let alone everything else?

Also, yes, Israel is a young country, but we surely can't compare a country that was created out of a UN mandate to others that had been created during the age of empires? And even then, you're not seeing atrocities being committed by other young nations today, basket cases though some of them maybe (looking at you, Pakistan)
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Of course they should.

I'm not only well aware of these polls but also not surprised by the poll results. Occupation corrupts the mind of the occupier as much as the occupied. You can't occupy and colonize another country without considering the "natives" slightly less deserving of the same rights you enjoy, or else it would throw out the window any justification as to why you're doing it in the first place. It's a mindset that slowly grows and takes hold of your entire population, with the help of the government and its institutions at first, and then on its own by routine. Normality is question of habits.

And if the natives happen to lash out after decades of mass expulsions, unlawful treatment, humiliations and being murdered on a whim, you'll find a lot of people on the occupying side genuinely perplexed, horrified and angry at them. What wrong did we ever do to them? Why are they going against the natural order of things? How dare they revolt? We must teach them and remind them of their place. Again, absolutely nothing new under the sun. A few centuries down the line, there'll be people looking back at what happens now and talk about the age of empires the same way you do. Times change, humans do not. No matter how much law you put between them and their darkest instincts.

I'm much more lenient, if I dare say so, towards the Israeli population because of their history, because they've got a dog in the race and lie so deep in the mud that they lack necessary hindsight to see the whole picture with an objective eye. I do however have a massive problem with those who aren't, yet still unconditionally stand by the Israeli government(s) and (willingly) refuse to see the situation for what it is. An ongoing, utter injustice and an abject oppression of a people that had nothing to do with the Holocaust and was offered as expiatory victim for a crime they didn't commit.
 
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the_cliff said:
Pretty bleak this. I mean, what for ? Do they want to fight Hezbollah now ?
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They're in a position where they can say jump and the US will ask how high.

A few campaign donations to get the number raised and then apply pressure that anyone who rejects it is a anti-Semite. It's an easy ruse.

It wouldn't surprise me if Israel have demanded certain sums to not wipe out all gazans. Even this abhorrent security zone/land grab we're seeing proposed will no doubt be funded by US taxpayers.
 
I love this reversal in roles in which the Israeli officials and army are trying to appear more humane than the US and some EU countries.

You can't help but laugh at this absurdity.
 
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Bosnian_fan said:
How could China or Russia possibly influence the conflict, I'd really like to know. By bombing Israel maybe?

The whole point is that Israel is banking on US support to commit genocide, if there wasn't such support, Israel would be far less willing to commit to such atrocities, and such atrocitied would also get much bigger response from Egypt and Iran.

It is ridiculous to pin anything on anyone but USA (apart from Israel), not actually ridiculous but either extremely naive or dishonest if there is no naivety involved.
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With or without US, there is feck all that Iran can do to Israel and Egypt have ceased having problems with Israel for almost half a century.

Israel cannot be threatened military. However, they should have been politically and economically isolated during this bloodthirsty campaign. US and most of EU countries that matter not only didn’t do that, but they have actively supported, including military, Israel in what is almost reaching the threshold of genocide.
 
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