Westminster Politics

[Bert_]

Economy was back in growth and the budget deficit was being reduced. For that 5 or 6 years until the referendum everything was going in the right direction.

Economy was back in growth in 2009. The budget defecit was an invented concept used as an excuse to finish the assest stripping and transfer of wealth Thatcher started in the 80s. Goverments need to spend money to make money, growth in other words.

After 14 years of austerity, the defecit is about the same as it was before the the 08 crash. And what do we have to show for it?

Going in the right direction

 

[Drainy]

Economy was back in growth in 2009. The budget defecit was an invented concept used as an excuse to finish the assest stripping and transfer of wealth Thatcher started in the 80s. Goverments need to spend money to make money, growth in other words.

After 14 years of austerity, the defecit is about the same as it was before the the 08 crash. And what do we have to show for it?

Going in the right direction

Yes but not as much of the growth was going to the extraordinarily well off so it doesn't count

 

[Buster15]

https://news.sky.com/story/army-mus...-ex-defence-and-security-chiefs-warn-13098365

British Army credibility has been weakened by 20 plus years of hollowing out and diminished fighting power. Army morale is fragile," it added.

If the Army, or Navy or RAF is not seen as offering a credible deterrent, there is little point in having it.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Economy was back in growth and the budget deficit was being reduced. For that 5 or 6 years until the referendum everything was going in the right direction.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/382695/uk-foodbank-users/

Going in the direction, if you like the idea of the poorest in society not being able to afford food.

 

[Sweet Square]

He said he had witnessed considerable unemployment which “affected the community I was growing up in” in Tottenham, north London in the 1980s. But in a sign Labour is targeting former Tory voters, he added: “Margaret Thatcher was a visionary leader for the U.K; no doubt about it — that’s absolutely clear.’

https://www.politico.eu/article/margaret-thatcher-david-lammy-visionary-labour-united-kingdom/

.

 

[11101]

I’ve heard some takes, but this is insane. The UK wasn’t fcuked. The GFC fecked most countries. Austerity compounded its impacts.

A Labour government would have handled it far better.

The UK was hit harder than its peers, and harder than it should have been had Brown not relaxed regulations and pushed the financial sector to take more and more risks to prop up his spending plans. Through the GFC the UK economy was hit harder than the US and Euro area and from 2012 to the referendum UK growth matched the US and was well ahead of the Euro area. Those last few years of Labour made things much worse than they needed to be.

Economy was back in growth in 2009. The budget defecit was an invented concept used as an excuse to finish the assest stripping and transfer of wealth Thatcher started in the 80s. Goverments need to spend money to make money, growth in other words.

After 14 years of austerity, the defecit is about the same as it was before the the 08 crash. And what do we have to show for it?

Going in the right direction

The UK economy contracted by 4.6% in 2009. Literally the worst single year since the war.

 

[TheGame]

Fascists.

 

[Bert_]

The UK was hit harder than its peers, and harder than it should have been had Brown not relaxed regulations and pushed the financial sector to take more and more risks to prop up his spending plans. Through the GFC the UK economy was hit harder than the US and Euro area and from 2012 to the referendum UK growth matched the US and was well ahead of the Euro area. Those last few years of Labour made things much worse than they needed to be.

Relaxed regulations the Tories didn't think were relaxed enough. Imagine if they'd been in charge at the time!

The UK economy contracted by 4.6% in 2009. Literally the worst single year since the war.

Semantics of financial reporting years. The year after the crash bottomed out, we had a 2.2% GDP growth.

Stats for anyone who cares...
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyp/pn2

 

[Bert_]

Fascists.

Wtf is a "believer" supposed to be?

 

[The Corinthian]

HMRC will close tax helpline for half the year

Literally nothing works in this country anymore

Already u-turned:

HMRC reverses decision to close telephone helpline - BBC News

 

[TheGame]

Wtf is a "believer" supposed to be?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The UK was hit harder than its peers, and harder than it should have been had Brown not relaxed regulations and pushed the financial sector to take more and more risks to prop up his spending plans. Through the GFC the UK economy was hit harder than the US and Euro area and from 2012 to the referendum UK growth matched the US and was well ahead of the Euro area. Those last few years of Labour made things much worse than they needed to be.




The UK economy contracted by 4.6% in 2009. Literally the worst single year since the war.

The Uk was hit hardest as it was ground zero for lending and insurance.

It’s proper fantasy stuff to see what the Tories have done in 14 years and allow yourself to believe that they didn’t coast on Labour success for the early period, and destroy the country with every passing year. Like, really mad, outside of reality thinking.

You can’t possibly think Austerity was good?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Fascists.

The amazing thing is that over ten per cent of the electorate may vote for these morons.

Mummy, the BBC called us a nasty name, the far right.

You can't make this insanity up.

 

[TheGame]

Sunak is just a cnut and out of his depth, must be endure this shitshow until October?

 

[TheGame]

 

[The Corinthian]

Sunak is just a cnut and out of his depth, must be endure this shitshow until October?

Just a weak man in every sense of the word.

 

[TheGame]

The amazing thing is that over ten per cent of the electorate may vote for these morons.

Mummy, the BBC called us a nasty name, the far right.

You can't make this insanity up.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Strong divorced dad vibes.

 

[Semper Fudge]

These people consider themselves the master race. State of them.

 

[Berbaclass]

What is this cnut on

 

[Berbaclass]

Fascists.

If I jump in the sea will they take me to France please?

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Wtf is a "believer" supposed to be?

Someone who doesn't like the "illegals", obviously.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

These people consider themselves the master race. State of them.

Worth reminding them that those cnuts also lost.

 

[Balljy]

Fascists.

The bit about restaffing the department of immigration is interesting. I had a mate who used to work there, and originally wanted the job because he wanted to help people who needed help (rather than how it seems to be now which is you're there to stop immigration under all circumstances).

After a couple of years he left, because the job was affecting him too much when he was being forced to turn people away to hit quotas. He's given me a couple of examples of people who were coming from desperate situations and were really enthusiastic about working and adjusting to the UK.

 

[Dobba]

 

[Sweet Square]

Liz Truss was asked for her greatest achievement. She replied: "Rachel Reeves”

 

[11101]

The Uk was hit hardest as it was ground zero for lending and insurance.

It’s proper fantasy stuff to see what the Tories have done in 14 years and allow yourself to believe that they didn’t coast on Labour success for the early period, and destroy the country with every passing year. Like, really mad, outside of reality thinking.

You can’t possibly think Austerity was good?

The US dwarfs the UK for lending and insurance, it was both hit less and recovered faster. I was working in the industry at the time and everybody knew problems were being stored up with some of the products we were layering on top of each other but every year the regulations would be loosened a bit to help the gravy train carry on. Some properly exotic products were being traded in London because nowhere else would allow them.

My thoughts are simple. Blair did a decent job, Gordon Brown was a disaster. He loaded us up with too much bloat and debt for the size of the economy. Austerity was necessary for a period of time but we should have dropped it in the mid 2010s.

 

[Bert_]

The US dwarfs the UK for lending and insurance, it was both hit less and recovered faster. I was working in the industry at the time and everybody knew problems were being stored up with some of the products we were layering on top of each other but every year the regulations would be loosened a bit to help the gravy train carry on. Some properly exotic products were being traded in London because nowhere else would allow them.

My thoughts are simple. Blair did a decent job, Gordon Brown was a disaster. He loaded us up with too much bloat and debt for the size of the economy. Austerity was necessary for a period of time but we should have dropped it in the mid 2010s.

The US recovered quicker because they didn't go down the austerity route we did which has proved to be a disaster which we've yet to recover from.

Apart from the borrowing to nationalise the banks during the financial crisis what did Brown do differently to Blair by the way?

 

[Ekkie Thump]

The US dwarfs the UK for lending and insurance, it was both hit less and recovered faster. I was working in the industry at the time and everybody knew problems were being stored up with some of the products we were layering on top of each other but every year the regulations would be loosened a bit to help the gravy train carry on. Some properly exotic products were being traded in London because nowhere else would allow them.

My thoughts are simple. Blair did a decent job, Gordon Brown was a disaster. He loaded us up with too much bloat and debt for the size of the economy. Austerity was necessary for a period of time but we should have dropped it in the mid 2010s.

Bolded doesn't seem to be the case; at least not as a share of the overall economy, which is the most important metric for comparison.

On "dwarfing":​

• Financial services and associated industries represented a maximum of 7.6% of the US economy in 2007 (Q1). In the UK it represented 8.8% (pg 9)
• OECD suggests that in 2007 household debt was 175% of income in the UK compared to 144% across the pond.

On "too much bloat and debt":​

• UK General Government debt went from 42% - 74% of gdp between 2007-2010
• US General Government debt went from 65% - 95% over the same period
• UK General Government debt peaked at 87% of GDP in 2015
• US General Government debt was at 105% in that year.

US did not undergo austerity. UK did. US recovered faster you say?

 

[711]

Not really. The country was in rude national health at the end of that 13 year period. Pretty much everything worked as well as it’s ever done. That probably not saying much, but they should have been the first 13 years of a good run. We needed left wing opposition to a fairly centre left Labour Party that demanded even more for the people.

Instead, we had an ungrateful populace that fell for Cameron’s bollocks. It happens every single time. The people in this country are poorly informed of politics, economics and when paired with the media and bad faith actors in the Tory party… they vote against their own best interests so often.

British people are kind, compassionate, but they are easily led. They focus on the micro day to day of their own lives and even when it’s good, they’re gullible at the macro level. Towns where only ‘The Good Immigrants’ exist, as doctors and nurses and dentists, that see them not have to wait for services… will buy into macro dramas about immigration and pick up a pitchfork. They can have a child in a school rated ‘Good’ that’s raising middle England economy drones where they all get ten GCSE’s and have among the highest percentage of children going on to Uni… and get corrupted by the threat of unisex toilets, or that children at the school are soon to identify as cats.

They routinely vote for a party that makes everything worse. Every. Single. Time.

It’ll happen again. No question.

Well it obviously doesn't happen every time because Blair won three successive elections. There is a lot in what you're saying in general but your conclusion 'It’ll happen again. No question' is simply wrong. It might happen again yes, or we might see a repeat of Blair's wins, or Wilson's. They both had everything against them too, but still won again.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

The US dwarfs the UK for lending and insurance, it was both hit less and recovered faster. I was working in the industry at the time and everybody knew problems were being stored up with some of the products we were layering on top of each other but every year the regulations would be loosened a bit to help the gravy train carry on. Some properly exotic products were being traded in London because nowhere else would allow them.

My thoughts are simple. Blair did a decent job, Gordon Brown was a disaster. He loaded us up with too much bloat and debt for the size of the economy. Austerity was necessary for a period of time but we should have dropped it in the mid 2010s.

The UK didn’t recover as fast BECAUSE of the thing you think was a good idea. It wasn’t. If you’re allowed to describe the Labour relaxing of regulations as a factor… what the hell kind of nutty bucket do you put Forever-Austerity in?

Honestly.

 

[Jericholyte2]

The US dwarfs the UK for lending and insurance, it was both hit less and recovered faster. I was working in the industry at the time and everybody knew problems were being stored up with some of the products we were layering on top of each other but every year the regulations would be loosened a bit to help the gravy train carry on. Some properly exotic products were being traded in London because nowhere else would allow them.

My thoughts are simple. Blair did a decent job, Gordon Brown was a disaster. He loaded us up with too much bloat and debt for the size of the economy. Austerity was necessary for a period of time but we should have dropped it in the mid 2010s.

I’m sorry, but what planet are you living on?!?

1. Brown had a plan that he took to a hesitant EU and had them all agreeing to it, before a combination of Tory & media lies blamed him for the economic crisis.

2. Debt as a % of GDP continued to grow consistently between 2010 and the Brexit referendum, even as A&E units, schools, libraries, sure start centres were being closed and the police force was decimated of experienced staff.

In no way was austerity needed or justified. As others said this path put billions in the pockets of people who already had billions in the bank whilst rendering the country a husk, just about able to limp along so long as nothing like a global pandemic or a war broke out.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I was studying a degree in economics while Brown was Chancellor, including the history of economics, I am of the opinion that Brown was one of the best Chancellors the UK has had.

 

[Semper Fudge]

Superb.

 

[Sweet Square]

 

[horsechoker]

Blair did a decent job

Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?

 

[Buster15]

Brexit voters have done more than enough damage to the UK already.
Reform is akin to the blind leading the blind.

 

[711]

I was studying a degree in economics while Brown was Chancellor, including the history of economics, I am of the opinion that Brown was one of the best Chancellors the UK has had.

Most economists at home and certainly abroad agree.

Some of the criticisms from both right and left are based on unknowns. We know the strategy of QE and interest rates was Brown's, he convinced the US and Europe to follow it and so avoided a mega-recession. We know had he retained power he intended an austerity budget to hammer that policy home. What we don't know is what he would have done in subsequent years, or how long the austerity would have lasted. Personally I do not think he would have maintained it in the way the Tories have for so long, I think he would have switched to growth as soon as he believed he could, but who knows.

 

[Spark]

Most economists at home and certainly abroad agree.

Some of the criticisms from both right and left are based on unknowns. We know the strategy of QE and interest rates was Brown's, he convinced the US and Europe to follow it and so avoided a mega-recession. We know had he retained power he intended an austerity budget to hammer that policy home. What we don't know is what he would have done in subsequent years, or how long the austerity would have lasted. Personally I do not think he would have maintained it in the way the Tories have for so long, I think he would have switched to growth as soon as he believed he could, but who knows.

Austerity was (and still is) ideologically driven by the tories, with a long line of targeted cuts disproportionally targeting the poorest. To no ones surprise, that has absolutely fecked the majority in this country over the last 14 years.

It’s a great shame Brown didn’t call an early election, as I think it would have been more favourable to Labour. There would certainly have been cuts, but I doubt it would have been called anything like “austerity”.

 

[711]

Austerity was (and still is) ideologically driven by the tories, with a long line of targeted cuts disproportionally targeting the poorest. To no ones surprise, that has absolutely fecked the majority in this country over the last 14 years.

It’s a great shame Brown didn’t call an early election, as I think it would have been more favourable to Labour. There would certainly have been cuts, but I doubt it would have been called anything like “austerity”.

As you say yourself 'there would certainly have been cuts'. If you want to quibble about the word austerity then fair enough, my point was that Brown would have started with cuts but I believe he would not have kept that up over time as the Tories have.