Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag

[Fallon d'Floor]

That reason is based in reality, he has developed them and brought them through. He has handled Mainoo well, Garnacho has been our best attacker at 19 and Hojlund did have a period in the season where he looked like the striker we were hoping for.

Exactly, he likely will have better options in the squad so he doesn't have to get booed when he subs Mainoo and Hojlund. Garnacho will likely be better next season and more robust.

It is made up that he hasn't developed them and they might get injured - he has actively protected them from fatigue and gets booed for. They might get injured with anyone, not sure how it's an argument against him when we'll be playing less games and hopefully a deeper squad.

He deserves credit for giving them both the opportunity. But neither have developed well under him in this team.

Garnacho isn't a better player now than he was when he assisted those 2 goals vs Villa in The League Cup 18 months ago. Slow progress.

Mainoo, like any other midfielder in this system, struggles to impose himself. His 2 wonder goals this season are down to his own individual ability. Off the cuff.

They'd both benefit from a change of management more than anyone else in the squad. They're still young and coachable.

 

[Red00012]

I’d give him a pass on the injuries if it wasn’t how we are set up tactically and our general play been so woeful . I actually can’t believe he persists with having no style of play And then goes on to defend it post match game after game.

It’s been so obvious from the 1st game v Wolves who appointed a manager a few days before the game and managed to outplay us for the whole game.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Oh I misread the question.

Managers develop players to play as a team in their chosen system. Doesn't matter how good or bad the players are.

Young players and their youth coaches are responsible for developing themselves into talented footballers.


You could argue ETH has best developed Dalot for playing in his system. Whereas he's failed to develop most of the other players since they all look like square pegs in round holes.

I’ve just seen this updated post.

So first bold point: You don’t believe player quality matters? Surely it limits what a coach can do?

Why do you think Dalot might have developed a lot under Ten Hag? Could that have anything to do with him playing 92% of our minutes this season and the most available of all our starters bar Bruno?

 

[Lash]

He deserves credit for giving them both the opportunity. But neither have developed well under him in this team.

Garnacho isn't a better player now than he was when he assisted those 2 goals vs Villa in The League Cup 18 months ago. Slow progress.

Mainoo, like any other midfielder in this system, struggles to impose himself. His 2 wonder goals this season are down to his own individual ability. Off the cuff.

They'd both benefit from a change of management more than anyone else in the squad. They're still young and coachable.

They are objectively better and he fast tracked Mainoo. He would have been in the side earlier if the injury in pre season hadn't happened.

Again, this isn't to say other managers couldn't develop them better. That's always the case if your manager isn't elite, but to try and say he's not developed them is grossly unfair. What other 19 and 18 year olds are playing at their level in the league?

There's nothing wrong with wanting Ten Hag out, but trying to say he has no impact on the only good parts of our season makes little sense if you blame him for everything else.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

The idea of not having to watch this team repeat the tactical clusterfeck that has been this season is what excites me to be honest.

I've never had to endure so many boring games in one season as I have this one. Limp in attack and useless in defence. At least under LVG we were good defensively while being boring.

We’re scoring on average 2.3 goals per game since January. That’s boring?

 

[mu4c_20le]

They are objectively better and he fast tracked Mainoo. He would have been in the side earlier if the injury in pre season hadn't happened.

Debatable. Just because he was involved in preseason doesn't guarantee he'd be given minutes over Mount, Eriksen, Amrabat.

Again, this isn't to say other managers couldn't develop them better. That's always the case if your manager isn't elite, but to try and say he's not developed them is grossly unfair. What other 19 and 18 year olds are playing at their level in the league?

There's nothing wrong with wanting Ten Hag out, but trying to say he has no impact on the only good parts of our season makes little sense if you blame him for everything else.

It's not a good look when most of the youngsters he supposedly developed or brought to the club are starting to turn on him.

 

[Salford_Red83]

We’re scoring on average 2.3 goals per game since January. That’s boring?

Do you not have eyes??

 

[hobbers]

I’ve just seen this updated post.

So first bold point: You don’t believe player quality matters? Surely it limits what a coach can do?

Why do you think Dalot might have developed a lot under Ten Hag? Could that have anything to do with him playing 92% of our minutes this season and the most available of all our starters bar Bruno?

It matters but the coaches' ability to get the best out of his players matters more.

Dalot's stock has grown under ETH, one of the only players in the squad to do so. Not necessarily because he's become a better footballer. But because he has fitted into this system better than others. Maybe just because it suits his game, or because ETH has coached him well in what to do, or both.

 

[kouroux]

Injuries cannot explain the struggle to get results against lower ranked PL teams and Coventry. There have been countless examples of shocking results against shit teams for someone sensible to consider giving him another year. If we were only losing against the tougher opponents but held our own against all the other teams then yeah, I'd understand wanting to give him another year.
We finished bottom of our CL groupe when we were all initially happy with the draw.

 

[Grande]

We’re scoring on average 2.3 goals per game since January. That’s boring?

No, of coursenit’s not boring. Any and all of the non United people I’ve heard talking about United games this season, has said they play entertaining games. Many fans don’t really care about that, though. They want to see us win and in addition to see us dominate games, and are frustrated. Understandably so, this season, even if it’s a passing phase.

(Some do pretend it’s about the entertainment, though)

 

[CallyRed]

Scoring 2.3 goals a game
Conceding 23.4 shots at goal a game.

Definitely not boring.

 

[mu4c_20le]

We’re scoring on average 2.3 goals per game since January. That’s boring?

sounds like something a bluemoon poster would write tbh

 

[Yakuza_devils]

Scoring 2.3 goals a game
Conceding 23.4 shots at goal a game.

Definitely not boring.

But but we have improved on scoring in 2024!

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Where have I said he has "every influence on ones performing badly"? You're the one saying that.

Stop the semantics and obsession with the word logic.


It's really, really simple. Young players are either talented when they hit the first team or not. Players are either good or not. Managers dont develop bad players into good ones, they might develop bad players into ones that fit well into their system. Equally they might fail to develop good players to fit into their system. How well they get a group of players to fit into their team, and their system, philosophy, ethos etc., defines whether they are a good manager or not.

That's the essence of "making a team greater than the sum of its parts". ETH has made the team far, far worse than the sum of its parts. Despite having 2 years and spending £450m on players he wanted.

You’re suggesting he hasn’t developed Mainoo and that he’s made players worse. So somehow you’re suggesting he hasn’t influenced the positive development but only the negative.

If players are either talented or not you need to then look at this squad that has been available and tell me is it a champions league level team without a consistent back 4, with heavy rotation and injury in midfield, with no central striker depth all season and with 3 under 21 players being key components in their debut seasons in the PL?

Ten Hag hasn’t had the parts available to make a good team unless you think Evans and Casemiro one week and Lindelof and Kwambala the other or was it Maguire and Casemiro? I lose count.

1) I was in the forum. Not sure what's your point. Yes, 1st season is the minimum we expect from a Man Utd manager especially he was backed in his first season. The 1st season was acceptable because everyone expecting better 2nd season. The 1st season the expectations was not high because he was given time to rebuild. 2nd season is just not acceptable.

2) There are many better coaches and no point arguing here as it's very subjective. And ETH didn't play them all season at these positions. We are being outplayed many times and sometime with almost full team.

3) Yes, every man and his dog know about our terrible structure. 100% of the fans here were complaining the same thing. But ETH was reported to want full control or at least have heavy influence on signings. Hence, he was part of the problem and failed terribly.

4) IMO, the players are not the problem, maybe a few of them. We need to change the problematic players regardless who will be the manager. IMO, the style of play and man management are the biggest problem because ETH already have a lot of his signings and yet we are nowhere near to the standard required.

5) I don't need to have any data. The most important KPIs. Is it acceptable for Man Utd manager to finish 8th (or not qualified for CL) in 2nd season after spending 400M? Is it acceptable for Man Utd to be outplayed by many smaller clubs? Is it acceptable for Man Utd to have no style of play which was constantly being criticized by experts and pundits?

1. My point is I can’t go back and see your posts from last season as they don’t appear on your profile.1st season most had us finishing outside the top 4. Not winning a cup and coming 3rd with the joint 2nd best goals conceded and most clean sheets for example.
2. It absolutely matters please tell me who manages that back line to success this season? Who manages a constantly injured and rotated back line better? I’m not talking a 2 week period I’m talking a whole season now who can do it? Has anyone ever done it
3. Part of the problem maybe but not fully responsible it’s widely reported how poor the club was ran at this point so to blame Ten Hag for this is unfair. Unless you think the Glazers did a great job getting things set up for him?
4. So do you believe that the players we have available this season are good enough to do significantly more? We’ve had Jonny Evans play 39% of our season at CB for example is that a top club thing?
5. Is it acceptable to finish 8th? Well the season isn’t over yet. So why are we acting as though it is? But if we did finish 8th given the injuries this season I’d say it’s not the end of the world and also it’s happened before to Arsenal what makes us better than 8th? If we had a normal season then no it’s not acceptable. But we haven’t had a normal one and ignoring context is just silly. It’s like being critical for not running a faster time in 100m despite having a broken leg. Theres only so much you can do.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

They are objectively better and he fast tracked Mainoo. He would have been in the side earlier if the injury in pre season hadn't happened.

Again, this isn't to say other managers couldn't develop them better. That's always the case if your manager isn't elite, but to try and say he's not developed them is grossly unfair. What other 19 and 18 year olds are playing at their level in the league?

There's nothing wrong with wanting Ten Hag out, but trying to say he has no impact on the only good parts of our season makes little sense if you blame him for everything else.

Like I said, he deserves credit for giving them the opportunity. But I don't think they've developed well under him. You disagree. Okay?

Brighton have had Hinshelwood, Buonanotte and Ferguson all do well as teenagers under De Zerbri. Enciso only turned 20 in January. He was excellent last season.

Odobert has done well at Burnley as teenager in a struggling team. Koleosho (19) has been a big miss for them. He's been injured for 5 months.

Miley impressed for Newcastle as a 17 year old this season.

I don't look back at this season and think that Garnacho has been amazing. He's scored in 6 games out of 46 games played. Villa at home, Everton at home and Chelsea away were his memorable performances, for me.

 

[mu4c_20le]

1. Is it acceptable to finish 8th? Well the season isn’t over yet. So why are we acting as though it is? But if we did finish 8th given the injuries this season I’d say it’s not the end of the world and also it’s happened before to Arsenal what makes us better than 8th? If we had a normal season then no it’s not acceptable. But we haven’t had a normal one and ignoring context is just silly. It’s like being critical for not running a faster time in 100m despite having a broken leg. Theres only so much you can do.

Why are you randomly comparing us with Arsenal with no context?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It matters but the coaches' ability to get the best out of his players matters more.

Dalot's stock has grown under ETH, one of the only players in the squad to do so. Not necessarily because he's become a better footballer. But because he has fitted into this system better than others. Maybe just because it suits his game, or because ETH has coached him well in what to do, or both.

So you acknowledge that Dalot, our only defender to have played pretty much all season, has adapted well to the system. So the system can work for some players.

So if it’s working for Dalot our most available defender is there a possible reason why it’s not worked as much with other defenders who have been unavailable due to injury?

Im really glad Hobbers you can acknowledge that Ten Hag has clearly coached Dalot positively. Can we also acknowledge that we also previously had the 2nd best defence (based on goals conceded) last season with the most clean sheets?

Does this suggest that Ten Hag is therefore able to coach defenders?

But but we have improved on scoring in 2024!

Am I lying is that not true?

We get asked what has improved. I’ve told you what’s improved and yet it’s still subject to derision. Call me cynical but maybe you don’t care about the facts that counter the narrative that no change has occurred.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Why are you randomly comparing us with Arsenal with no context?

A team still very much in development with obvious issues finished 8th but then develops from that position to where they are today.

It’s a minor point but worth noting it has happened elsewhere and that was without the level of injury we’ve had. Theres was a culture and quality issue.

Ours is a culture, quality and injury issue.

 

[Leftback99]

With him in charge next season I really cant see us doing any better than the 8th place we're about to finish.

We'll probably do worse.

The squad is an absolute mess because of his £400m of signings. And we won't have big money to spend in the summer.

City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle all have better squads than us. Teams like Palace have numerous players that would walk into our best XI.

 

[hobbers]

So you acknowledge that Dalot, our only defender to have played pretty much all season, has adapted well to the system. So the system can work for some players.

So if it’s working for Dalot our most available defender is there a possible reason why it’s not worked as much with other defenders who have been unavailable due to injury?

Im really glad Hobbers you can acknowledge that Ten Hag has clearly coached Dalot positively. Can we also acknowledge that we also previously had the 2nd best defence (based on goals conceded) last season with the most clean sheets?

Does this suggest that Ten Hag is therefore able to coach defenders?

It suggests Ole coached the team quite well defensively and Martinez+Case added a lot of value to the conservative, 2 holding midfielder, rely on moments from Rashford system we used last season. Then ETH dismantled it, implemented the suicide system and his training methods got everyone injured. But Dalot is quite good coming into midfield and can run all day so he looks alright.

 

[mu4c_20le]

A team still very much in development with obvious issues finished 8th but then develops from that position to where they are today.

It’s a minor point but worth noting it has happened elsewhere and that was without the level of injury we’ve had. Theres was a culture and quality issue.

Ours is a culture, quality and injury issue.

Besides the obvious fact that we had different objectives, players, and expectations at the time.. you are also ignoring a crucial stat, goal difference. Even when they finished 8th they had clear signs of progress. We are closer to Everton that year, they finished 10th with -1 GD. We could become Arsenal, but more likely could fall even further like the Toffees.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

A 50.5 / 100 is an F.

I chuckled. Complete failure.

 

[Sarni]

Not even ETH pick his own players. Let ineos sign players that fit their new mould and ETH has to manage them. I expect them to have a better strategy in place than a manager picking who he wants.

What if he doesn’t get the players he needs? We won’t be able to judge him because it may be INEOS’ fault for getting him the wrong players.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It suggests Ole coached the team quite well defensively and Martinez+Case added a lot of value to the conservative, 2 holding midfielder, rely on moments from Rashford system we used last season. Then ETH dismantled it, implemented the suicide system and his training methods got everyone injured. But Dalot is quite good coming into midfield and can run all day so he looks alright.

Ok now you’re being silly if you’re just giving credit to Ole (who I think did a good job as far as he could with us until Ronaldo signed).

So Erik Ten Hag made two good signings? Or was he not responsible for that? What are we allowed to attribute positively to him here? Did he coach Martinez to help improve that system? Or Casemiro (I’m guessing he wasn’t here long enough?)

A lot of what you’ve said is speculation regarding training injuries.

But I’ll take at least that you’ve acknowledged Dalot, our most available defender, has adapted to his defensive role in this new system really well. Might be something in that?

Besides the obvious fact that we had different objectives, players, and expectations at the time.. you are also ignoring a crucial stat, goal difference. Even when they finished 8th they had clear signs of progress. We are closer to Everton that year, they finished 10th with -1 GD. We could become Arsenal, but more likely could fall even further like the Toffees.

I’d love our goal difference to be higher too. I’d also love not to have had however many defenders out injured all season with as many rotations as we’ve had making any system in defence inherently flawed beyond low block and hope for the best. We’ve also got the youngest front 3 on average I believe of the clubs above us?

 

[Leftback99]

Every week like clockwork his apologists get bolder as the week goes on. Only to go quiet again when the football is actually played.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

With him in charge next season I really cant see us doing any better than the 8th place we're about to finish.

We'll probably do worse.

The squad is an absolute mess because of his £400m of signings. And we won't have big money to spend in the summer.

City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle all have better squads than us. Teams like Palace have numerous players that would walk into our best XI.

I don't think it could ever get as bad as 8th again.

But we've actually already seen how badly he's done with an easy schedule this season. We went out of The League Cup on November 1st and were completely out of Europe before Christmas.

Yet.. we're worse than ever and still picking up injuries. All bad luck though. The training methods and recovery techniques aren't the issue. ten Hag and his staff can't be blamed.

Villa, Spurs and Newcastle don't have better squads than us. They all lack depth in certain positions. But their mangers do perform beyond their means. You'd expect all three clubs to add more depth in the summer.

A United manager should be expected to manage at least 50 games a season. Being rewarded for failing to qualify for Europe at all would be hilarious. You can't look back on the past 14-15 months and not sack him. You just can't.

 

[Rood]

Moyes was sacked for less than this. So too LvG, Jose and Ole. Why the hell is ETH getting a free pass?? What exactly has he done to garner so much blind loyalty??

Because injuries and new board

No blind loyalty here, I'm not that bothered if he gets sacked but I'm not against giving him another season either

 

[M Bison]

Sacking the manager will do nothing apart from give us a new manager bounce and benefit us in the short term. Hopefully a new football structure is on its way in, which will give us the building blocks to work from, without that it'll just be another lamb for the slaughter.

Its not EtH's fault, its the hierarchy.

 

[Alpha 1]

Ten "excuses" Hag is a fraud. Other teams have had similar injuries but have performed much better

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Because injuries and new board

No blind loyalty here, I'm not that bothered if he gets sacked but I'm not against giving him another season either

Injuries don't wash because Newcastle and Chelsea have experienced numerous injuries too, but aren't useless in attack.

We've watched ten Hag's United team struggle to score goals 2 seasons in a row in The PL. 58 goals last season. 52 goals so far this season.

No matter what other issues Spurs, Newcastle and Chelsea have, they don't struggle to score goals and their managers generally get the best out of their attackers.

We've had the majority of our 1st choice attackers available all season. Rashford, Garnacho, Antony, Bruno and Højlund have rarely been unavailable. Just 33 PL goals.

Strikers have really struggled under ten Hag. Even Bruno's numbers have dropped off a lot. He didn't get going until April.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Sacking the manager will do nothing apart from give us a new manager bounce and benefit us in the short term. Hopefully a new football structure is on its way in, which will give us the building blocks to work from, without that it'll just be another lamb for the slaughter.

Its not EtH's fault, its the hierarchy.

What is ten Hag's fault? Anything?

 

[Leftback99]

I don't think it could ever get as bad as 8th again.

But we've actually already seen how badly he's done with an easy schedule this season. We went out of The League Cup on November 1st and were completely out of Europe before Christmas.

Yet.. we're worse than ever and still picking up injuries. All bad luck though. The training methods and recovery techniques aren't the issue. ten Hag and his staff can't be blamed.

Villa, Spurs and Newcastle don't have better squads than us. They all lack depth in certain positions. But their mangers do perform beyond their means. You'd expect all three clubs to add more depth in the summer.

A United manager should be expected to manage at least 50 games a season. Being rewarded for failing to qualify for Europe at all would be hilarious. You can't look back on the past 14-15 months and not sack him. You just can't.

8th flatters us. Performance wise it would be difficult to worse but I don't think we'll be better than those 7 under Ten Hag.

Squad wise none of Villa, Chelsea, Spurs or Newcastle have question marks all over the team like us. They aren't going to stand still either.

You can barely point to a single position in the team and say 'yeah that's sorted for a few years'.

 

[Lash]

Debatable. Just because he was involved in preseason doesn't guarantee he'd be given minutes over Mount, Eriksen, Amrabat.


It's not a good look when most of the youngsters he supposedly developed or brought to the club are starting to turn on him.

Apart from as soon as he was fit he came straight into the side.

Are they? Antony might the only example of that.

Like I said, he deserves credit for giving them the opportunity. But I don't think they've developed well under him. You disagree. Okay?

Brighton have had Hinshelwood, Buonanotte and Ferguson all do well as teenagers under De Zerbri. Enciso only turned 20 in January. He was excellent last season.

Odobert has done well at Burnley as teenager in a struggling team. Koleosho (19) has been a big miss for them. He's been injured for 5 months.

Miley impressed for Newcastle as a 17 year old this season.

I don't look back at this season and think that Garnacho has been amazing. He's scored in 6 games out of 46 games played. Villa at home, Everton at home and Chelsea away were his memorable performances, for me.

Fine, agree to disagree on that.

Garnacho has scored 9 in 46? He's not been amazing, but he's played a lot of top level games for a 19 year old (PL, CL and soon to be a final) and nearly hitting double figures. It's a good season, I'm not expecting him to be carrying us. Also no one you've mentioned has come close to his levels in comparison.

 

[stevoc]

We’re scoring on average 2.3 goals per game since January. That’s boring?

We've been very boring to watch as a United fan this season. We're crap at attacking and poor at defending. Historically that's been a bad combination in football.

 

[Eugenius]

Sounds like a great plan. When you have a manager who cannot do anything right and make the club the laughing stock of football, the club owns him to sacrifice two seasons. In EtH we trust.

Cannot do anything right, yes if you ignore the rest of his managerial career. Most top coaches in the world have had a stinker at some point. I'm not sure what magical fix is to be gained by sacking ETH.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

We've been very boring to watch as a United fan this season. We're crap at attacking and poor at defending. Historically that's been a bad combination in football.

I can’t say we’ve been boring. Stressful absolutely but not boring. It’s end to end stuff.

 

[Rood]

Injuries don't wash because Newcastle and Chelsea have experienced numerous injuries too, but aren't useless in attack.

We've watched ten Hag's United team struggle to score goals 2 seasons in a row in The PL. 58 goals last season. 52 goals so far this season.

No matter what other issues Spurs, Newcastle and Chelsea have, they don't struggle to score goals and their managers generally get the best out of their attackers.

We've had the majority of our 1st choice attackers available all season. Rashford, Garnacho, Antony, Bruno and Højlund have rarely been unavailable. Just 33 PL goals.

Strikers have really struggled under ten Hag. Even Bruno's numbers have dropped off a lot. He didn't get going until April.

No one else has had the injuries we had to deal with - not even close

Upfront Ten Hag was failed by the board before the season even started - he was told Mason Greenwood would be part of his squad, then they changed their mind just before the transfer window closed and didn't bring in anyone else

So we went into the season very light upfront - raw Hojlund (who also had some injury issues) with worthless Martial as back up. All summer I had said that we desperately needed another striker and then again in January but nothing.

 

[Lash]

No one else has had the injuries we had to deal with - not even close

Upfront Ten Hag was failed by the board before the season even started - he was told Mason Greenwood would be part of his squad, then they changed their mind just before the transfer window closed and didn't bring in anyone else

So we went into the season very light upfront - raw Hojlund (who also had some injury issues) with worthless Martial as back up. All summer I had said that we desperately needed another striker and then again in January but nothing.

Also not sure how he can legislate for your most senior attacker, who got 30 goals last season, decide to not even output a third of that. His persistence with Antony has been an obvious error and maybe should have played Amad more, but how does that make up for that shortfall?

 

[stevoc]

I can’t say we’ve been boring. Stressful absolutely but not boring. It’s end to end stuff.

Glad you're enjoying it mate. I'm sure we're popular with the neutrals as well.

But as a United fan who'd like to see us control games, be solid in defence and have some sort of structure to our attacks I'm finding what I'd loosely refer to as our style of play incredibly boring and frustrating to watch.

 

[stevoc]

No one else has had the injuries we had to deal with - not even close

Upfront Ten Hag was failed by the board before the season even started - he was told Mason Greenwood would be part of his squad, then they changed their mind just before the transfer window closed and didn't bring in anyone else

So we went into the season very light upfront - raw Hojlund (who also had some injury issues) with worthless Martial as back up. All summer I had said that we desperately needed another striker and then again in January but nothing.

Aren't we 4th in the PL injury table?