Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

e.cantona said:
Sure they may have an interest in it. Don't equate to them doing so.
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Ok. So Hamas has an interest in inflating the death toll, but has no track record of doing so in multiple past bombardments, and you believe they have this time. All I need to know :)
 
Pav1878 said:
Mark Twain said you shouldn’t argue with stupid people as they bring you down to their level and then beat with experience.

Those who support Israel’s actions and dress up genocide as self defence, or pretend to be the victims when we have seen Palestinians subjected to massacre after massacre, having their land stolen, displacement, demonisation, the list goes on, are the actual ‘human animals’ that the Israeli government spoke of. Their lack of compassion or humanity means they are not made of the same stuff the rest of us are.

I have realised that no amount of logic, facts, moral discussion, ethics etc are going to convince them they are on the wrong side of history. They are a lost cause and quite frankly finished as human beings.

so do yourselves a favour and don’t bother.
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Well said, particularly the second to last paragraph.
 
Well known Hamas stronghold MSF have come out with some figures from their own field sites of the numbers of people they alone dealt with:

Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) said on Monday that one of its facilities had received at least 28 dead people following the strike, including woman and children.

In a statement, the organisation said it had treated another 180 wounded Palestinians, with most suffering from serious shrapnel wounds, fractures, traumatic injuries and burns.

MSF rejected Israeli claims that the strike was precise, saying the "attack on a populated camp in a so-called ‘safe zone’ in Rafah shows the complete disregard for the lives of civilians in Gaza".
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But thankfully, the USA has come out and clarified what I think we all already know; as long as there were some Hamas there, essentially any number of civilian casualties is acceptable.

In a statement on Monday evening, the US called the images "heartbreaking", but insisted that Israel had a right to defend itself.

"Israel has a right to go after Hamas, and we understand this strike killed two senior Hamas terrorists who are responsible for attacks against Israeli civilians," a White House national security spokesperson said.
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Could not bring myself to posting the video, even if it wasn't against forum rules. Just the link (warning - images of severely burned children):

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/27/world/video/rafah-camp-strike-diamond-digvid

Really difficult to imagine that anyone could possibly veto anything now, after seeing this. The scenes and screams are already absolutely horrifying and gruesome, but even more tragic when you remember that there are no hospitals around any more, where those poor children could get help.
 
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VorZakone said:
I have an irrational need to ask the following: have the likes of Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Meyers etc shared their views on what's happening in Gaza?

Not that I expect comedians to solve world crises but more in the context of highlighting the Biden administration's absurdity on this subject. Or do only Republicans get made fun of?
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Oliver did a few times in his show. Absolute silence from Colbert and the rest
 
Does the Biden Administration have any leg to stand on when it preaches to other countries about human rights in various avenues when it continues to support these unrelenting attacks by Israel on civilians?
 
VorZakone said:
I have an irrational need to ask the following: have the likes of Stephen Colbert, John Oliver, Meyers etc shared their views on what's happening in Gaza?
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Oliver has done segments in the past. Meyers interviewed Biden recently and didn’t mention Gaza. This is Colbert currently

 
berbatrick said:
When the 1st hospital attack happened, it led to weeks of discourse: "Palestinians can't shoot straight", death toll is actually much lower, accidentally hit fuel storage, etc. When they first raided a hospital, there was a lot of discourse: MRI machine armoury, tunnels underneath, etc. When they first mowed down people surrounding an aid truck, there was tons of dicsourse: Hamas did it, these were terrorists, etc.

Since then they have attacked almost every hospital using both air and ground forces, have massacred people lining up for aid multiple times, and there has been no discourse and no need for a cover story since it becomes an accepted part of this war.
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"The most sophisticated and moral army in the world" are also grossly incompetent.
 
Il Prete Rosso said:
"The most sophisticated and moral army in the world" are also grossly incompetent.
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I quite often think the same but I think it's time to rethink it. Calling the terrorist army incompetent feels like letting them off. There is no incompetence here, it's all calculated, deliberate terrorism.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:


Been posted?
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Thanks for this, I think it's quite good. I'm not 100% on board, but I do like the framing and the virtually irrefutable claims that this has massively diminished the prospect of peace for Israel in the future. That's the bit that is so obvious and I assume must just not be getting through to the Israelis in Israel. Netanyahu and these far right morons are jeapordising the future of the entire Israeli project, for their own selfish reasons.

I think the single most glaring issue at the moment is simply that no one is coming up with answers anymore, anywhere. There is no longer a solution on the horizon. It's easy to criticise the US, but the same people doing so are also expecting a future (Trump!?) administration to oversee whatever comes next. We need to arrive at a post-Netanyahu point, and somehow find leadership that is willing to move towards a two-state solution, at a time when it has been all but abandoned.

There just isn't another option. As much as the last (almost year!) has poisoned the views of many on Israel, it is not going anywhere. Even once all settlements have been removed, the 67 borders adhered to, I don't see that being 'good enough' for Hamas or whomever inherits that mantle.

Just have no idea anymore.
 
maniak said:
I don't care really. I would rather have a neighbor who wouldn't give a shit if I dropped dead than a neighbor who is actively trying to murder me.

That's the thing here, as bad as hamas are (and they are) right now they are irrelevant, it's israel who is murdering innocents by the dozens on a daily basis.
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Thats your business. To me they are both utter evil. I despise them as much as I despise the right wing government in power in Israel right now. All they both want is as many deaths of civilian Palestinians as possible. Justifying it with flimsy excuses every time it occurs.
 
JPRouve said:
That's the issue you didn't bring up October 7th in your post. If you did and your point started from that moment then it would make some sense but you didn't and that's why it's absolutely senseless because for some reason you didn't spot that you are argumentation describes israelis and their actions against civilians in Gaza, the West Bank but also Syria and they happen to kill far more on a yearly basis.
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Nope. That is you rather taking extravagant leaps to attach extra meanings beyond the scope of what I said. If I had desired to Include the West Bank & Syria or Lebannon for that matter in my post I would have. I ibstead talked of Hamas and their specific behavior.

You are literally out of your mind if you think am going to defend things like Israeli settlers in the West Bank for example. The kinda a bastards who two days ago went and attacked a Palestinian village 7-8kms away from their settlement destroying property, food and killing dozens of civilians just because 1 teenager was killed less than a 1km from their settlement. With ZERO evidence its actually ANY Palsetinians rather than an Israeli settler who actually murdered the said teen. All because the murderous yahoos in Netanyahu's government endorse such impunity.

"Israel did right/No Palestinian is innocent" type stance literaltly has zilch to do with what I've said. I'll literally hate Hamas as much as I hate clique Nyetanyahu. Two wicked camps holding both Palestinians and Israeli civilians hostage to an ethnic war of hatred that could have been resolved decades ago if not for them. I just hope the events of recent days could open the door to the permanent downfall of Nyetanyahu and his type in Israeli political life. For I hold no hope of their Western Allies ever bringing them to account.
 
This seems to have been directed against a former ICC prosecutor, not Khan.

 
berbatrick said:
Ok. So Hamas has an interest in inflating the death toll, but has no track record of doing so in multiple past bombardments, and you believe they have this time. All I need to know :)
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How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.
 
You can not defend this shit anymore. Bombing the fecking tents where you previously told the civilians to locate to...
 
e.cantona said:
How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.
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Nobody is 'confused' about anything. We just have ample evidence, from both this conflict and the general history of Israel, that this narrative is complete and utter horseshit.
 
e.cantona said:
How so many people can be confused on this is beyond me. Hamas targets civilians of Israel. They want to kill civilians. Woman and children. That is their goal. They use their own population, women and children, as human shields. They want their own population to get killed, so it reflects badly on Israel. This is their strategy. The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source. It is impossible to know what is the correct numbers. People taking Hamas' word regarding this as fact, is ludicrous. One shows oneself to be willing to belive just about anything, on very little evidence.
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This is a completely ignorant post.
The numbers Hamas have provided may be correct or even too low, but UN recently revised it's estimate of women and children killed by about half, based on Hamas not being a reliable source.
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You don't know what you are talking about. This is complete nonsense.
 
Now for anyone who is genuinely interested in the different orgs, methods, potential discrepancies and the reasons for these discrepancies, here are two useful articles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-69014893
The overall number of reported deaths in Gaza - which currently stands at more than 35,000 - has not changed, but the UN now says incomplete information has led to the revision.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed
The UN has denied that the estimated death toll of women and children in the war in Gaza has been revised downward, pointing towards a confusion between the total numbers of dead bodies recorded, and the number of those who have so far been fully identified.
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dumbo said:
Now for anyone who is genuinely interested in the different orgs methods, potential discrepancies and the reasons for these discrepancies, here are two useful articles.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-69014893

https://www.theguardian.com/world/a...revises-figures-for-women-and-children-killed
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I doubt they'll even bother to read them so just to pull apart his nonsense in plain view.

They changed from one Hamas source to another Hamas source. The new source being the Hamas health ministry, which the news most often cites anyway.

The new numbers split the confirmed deaths of women and children to the expected/missing. Obviously there's more than just those medically confirmed.

Again though, innocent men and the category of elderly aren't even in those figures.
 
One more useful report below for anyone interested in the numbers. Very clearly The UN, WHO, BBC, Reuters, etc. still - to this very day - rely on Hamas-led sources for their reporting on casualty numbers.
"Unfortunately we have the sad experience of coordinating with the Ministry of Health on casualty figures every few years for large mass casualty incidents in Gaza, and in past times their figures have proven to be generally accurate," Haq said.

The World Health Organization "has a long-standing cooperation with the MoH in Gaza and we can attest that MoH has good capacity in data collection/analysis and its previous reporting has been considered credible," said WHO spokesperson Margaret Harris.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...r-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/
 
That_Bloke said:
You have absolutely no idea what you 're talking about. Your display of ignorance about this topic is astonishing.
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All my points still stand.. The guy above have only confirmed what I first stated. Hamas is the only source, so of course everyone relies on it
 
e.cantona said:
Of course it's not.

What about it is nonsense?
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Everything you wrote here was nonsense that was not backed by evidence. Starting with the Mosul death ratio (I have followed the Iraqi liberation war from ISIS every minute for every day for 3 years).

Ending it with "numbers revised" . If you had the good faith you could have easily read the UN report that simply contradict what you claim.
 
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