Scores die in Israeli air strikes

Anyone watch the C4 programme Dispatches called "unseen Gaza"?

Some of the images, many of whom were children, were unbeilebably gruesome!!

Also, Mark Regev the Israeli spokesman was found to be responsible for giving out misleading reports, in one report aired on Ch4 and BBC 2 he mentioned that independent reports suggested that Hamas was operating from the UN school when in fact the independent report actually stated that Hamas were in surronding area and NOT in the UN school.

I think it is now the responsibilty of the UN to make Israel accountable for their actions and to punish them for committing war crimes.
 
Chill out? I'm far from worked up. Tired of his hollow high and mighty attitude while he goose-steps in the back ground perhaps.

When you equate a government that has been under constant attack from the day it was established with NAZISM, you're crossing the line. Especially when said government was established due to the fact Nazi's tried to exterminate that particular group of people.

When you try to equate the NORMAL collateral damages of urban warfare with genocide, ethnic cleansing and all that hyperbole, not only are you uneducated you're being sensationalistic for the sake of whatever bias argument you are trying to make.

Unfortunately, whatever "evidence" presented will be dismissed by you and your ilk if it doesn't conform to your own skewed perception of reality.


Quality post. I love when people throw the word "ilk" in.
 
Chill out? I'm far from worked up. Tired of his hollow high and mighty attitude while he goose-steps in the back ground perhaps.

When you equate a government that has been under constant attack from the day it was established with NAZISM, you're crossing the line. Especially when said government was established due to the fact Nazi's tried to exterminate that particular group of people.

When you try to equate the NORMAL collateral damages of urban warfare with genocide, ethnic cleansing and all that hyperbole, not only are you uneducated you're being sensationalistic for the sake of whatever bias argument you are trying to make.

Unfortunately, whatever "evidence" presented will be dismissed by you and your ilk if it doesn't conform to your own skewed perception of reality.


Have some patience Nuck,

Sen. George Mitchell is on his way to sort things out. Lots of things have been said in the heat of the moment, but it's a new day.

*My apologies to all the people that have been lingering to see how far I would drag out this fight... I'm just too fecking hopeful in the new admin. Still haven't come down off the high of Bush leaving DC.
 
Are Israel going to be investigated for war crimes in terms of possible white phosphorous use among other things?
 
Why would they. They've violated no international laws or conventions.
 
You havent been inside Gaza, no international media is allowed is inside so your interpretation of events is no better than mine.

And whats wrong with an investigation? Theres evidence to prove that they might be using such weapons illegally - if they're innocent then they have nothing to worry about.
 
You havent been inside Gaza, no international media is allowed is inside so your interpretation of events is no better than mine.
I think he meant that because Israel didn't sign the treaty outlawing WP's use in that fashion, they can't be said to have broken the law.
 
I think he meant that because Israel didn't sign the treaty outlawing WP's use in that fashion, they can't be said to have broken the law.

Ok, but im not just referring to WP, what about the allegations that Israel have targetted UN sanctuaries, these need to be investigated.
 
Ok, but im not just referring to WP, what about the allegations that Israel have targetted UN sanctuaries, these need to be investigated.
I would assume that they are being investigated. Doubt the UN will sit on its hands with regard to their own facility being targeted. Prediction: whether or not there was deliberate wrongdoing, very little will come of it.
 
Ok, but im not just referring to WP, what about the allegations that Israel have targetted UN sanctuaries, these need to be investigated.

Not that it would necessarily justify anything but were Hamas fighters using these places as refuge or cover then that should be reported. Plus, were the UN facilities complicit in allowing this to happen, if it did. If it is discovered that IDF forces intentionally went after these places then the appropiate actions should be taken there also.
 
Not that it would necessarily justify anything but were Hamas fighters using these places as refuge or cover then that should be reported. Plus, were the UN facilities complicit in allowing this to happen, if it did. If it is discovered that IDF forces intentionally went after these places then the appropiate actions should be taken there also.

From what I gather UN officials have confirmed that it is not certain that Hamas have used the facility has cover, some UN officials claim that its actually not the case and that no Hamas militants were in the building. Though it should be investigated more thoroughly.
 
Anyone watch the C4 programme Dispatches called "unseen Gaza"?

Some of the images, many of whom were children, were unbeilebably gruesome!!

Also, Mark Regev the Israeli spokesman was found to be responsible for giving out misleading reports, in one report aired on Ch4 and BBC 2 he mentioned that independent reports suggested that Hamas was operating from the UN school when in fact the independent report actually stated that Hamas were in surronding area and NOT in the UN school.

I think it is now the responsibilty of the UN to make Israel accountable for their actions and to punish them for committing war crimes.

Thats what im referring to, the report claimed that Hamas were not in the building meaning that the excuse from the IDF is false and misleading. We'll have to see with how the UN deals with such possible charges.
 
Chill out? I'm far from worked up. Tired of his hollow high and mighty attitude while he goose-steps in the back ground perhaps.

When you equate a government that has been under constant attack from the day it was established with NAZISM, you're crossing the line. Especially when said government was established due to the fact Nazi's tried to exterminate that particular group of people.

When you try to equate the NORMAL collateral damages of urban warfare with genocide, ethnic cleansing and all that hyperbole, not only are you uneducated you're being sensationalistic for the sake of whatever bias argument you are trying to make.

Unfortunately, whatever "evidence" presented will be dismissed by you and your ilk if it doesn't conform to your own skewed perception of reality.

You're a joke. You spout nonsensical tripe and then you suggest that you are right because people agree with you (millions apparently, can I get some SOURCES on that please?). Yet nobody in this thread has agreed with you and so far everyone who has responded to your latest post has laughed at you.

You've come into this thread talking like you are some sort of humanitarian expert, you clearly are not. You're a big time charlie, what exactly are your credentials, oh that's right you don't have any.

You talk down to me like you have a leg to stand on, who are you again? When I see a spade, I call it a spade. When I see an anti-Semite, I call it that. I'm pretty sure you're not a spade, but I Know you're an anti-Semite.

Frankly I am shocked you're not banned. Some kid in another thread was banned because he didn't think the word Paki was racist. You've come out and slandered not only EVIL ZIONIST JEWZ but suggested that ALL Jews should be punished for Israels action. You've equated Israel and Jews to one of the most despicable governments in human history, a government that callously attempted to murder and eradicate an entire ethnic group, and enslave another. Is there anything else I should add to your anti-Iraeli rhetoric? Anything I missed?

You've crossed the line several times and again, I am shocked you're still here. Go work on expanding your vernacular you illiterate, uneducated nitwit.

:lol: tell you what nuckwit, you do make me laugh.

I'LL try one more time: Anti-Iraeli comments does not make one anti-semitic. If you can't tell the difference, that is why I think you are a fool. See if you can prove me wrong.

Likewise, the board is not representative of the global view. Indeed its obvious that those who feel the need to divert or cover up Israeli intentions swarm all over these types of blogs. Most people with my opinion go out and protest. I have not heard of one protest worldwide, seen one group on facebook etc where people have protested for the right for Israel to slaughter to death over 1300 people living in civilian areas, including women and children. Again, many many many press and protest movements have compared Israelis to Nazi's. Again I'm merely portraying to you what the world is saying. I have posted before many links in previous posts evidencing this. That does not make me anti-semetic.

I don't think your very easy of the term 'NORMAL collateral damages of urban warfare' is an acceptable one. There is nothing normal about the killing of innocents. It can never be justified. It is the greatest evil of all evil. Maybe you and your family need to experience abit of it yourselves to help you to understand. But Israeli's are so driven by hate filled propaganda, they cant see this. And you seem to have joined this band of people. Oh well.
 
The latest I heard about the school incident was the results of an IDF inquiry which came up with the following:

1. The school was hit by IDF forces.
2. In contrast to earlier claims, there was no Hamas fire coming from the school itself.
3. IDF infantry was under fire coming from a yard just outside the school walls.
4. Three mortar bombs were fired at the fire source, twp hitting it directly (killing the two terrorists) and another landing in the UN place.

I don't know what an independent inquiry could add to that. IDF infantry returned fire to fire sources, but mortars are not the most accurate weapons, are they? Unfortunately, troops have to make quick decisions in the battlefield and mortars was the only means the command on the ground could use to stop mortars being fired at our troops. Coupled with a densely populated area this was always going to end in loss of innocent lives. I guess we'll never know the extent of lives lost as a result of Hamas firing at IDF troops.
 
:lol: you cannot be serious - wasn´t he warned off by a mod for just that and just reread some of his posts and reconsider this statement if you want to retain some shred of credibility

I have not been warned by any mod. There is nothing I have said at any stage that is racist nor unobjective and based without reason. You are welcome not to agree. That you take offence of it is an indication of your blindness and bias. You guys really need to think through what the requirements of debate and exchange of views are about instead of throwing your toys out of the pram the moment a view is too close to the truth.

I stand by every post I have written. Read the newspapers buddy, they speak far more powerfully and eloquently than I do on this matter. But they and millions of others all say the same thing. If I have offended your sensibilities, then I have achieved my task. You know what the other side really thinks. Deal with it instead of crying foul every 2 seconds
 
How could possibly anyone rejoice at – or simply accept - the idea of innocents dying for a war they had no interest in? But (and I hope this won’t be misinterpreted) using the number of dead civilians as a means for determining who’s right and who’s wrong in a conflict is, in my view, a misleading approach.
I’ll take WW2 again. Different situation and all, but just to give an example.
Allied air forces levelled the city of Dresden to the ground, just to cite one. A huge number of civilians died.
Question: would it be right to accuse the Allies of those deaths?
Answer: no. From my point of view (and I believe from the point of view of many here) they’re on Hitler’s conscience, not on Churchill’s or on Eisenhower’s, even if it was Allied bombs that smashed them.

Likewise, we might at least give a possibility to the idea that those who actually caused civilian deaths in Gaza were Hamas – or, well, they had a strong co-responsibility. Putting them all down to IDF seems very biased and short-sighted.
 
You've come into this thread and called Israel Nazi's when clearly there is NOTHING even remotely similar. You have a bone to pick, you're extremely biased because of this and you are talking out your ass.
When will you realise that I represent the view of many many millions of people? When will you realize that most don't even bother to engage with your idiotic views? When will you realize that the UN, the Vatican, most moderate newspapers, in fact the majority of all decent people worldwide share these views.
There is nothing I have said at any stage that is racist nor unobjective and based without reason...That you take offence of it is an indication of your blindness and bias...I stand by every post I have written.
Once again I'll summarize your posts, please tell me if I've got it right. You are sticking to your assertion that Israel is equivalent to the Nazi regime, and your defense of this position is that many other people agree with you. Also, nearly all good people agree with what you have to say, it is mostly bad people who disagree. And if I take offense at that, it's because I am blind.

Is that an accurate summary?
 
The latest I heard about the school incident was the results of an IDF inquiry which came up with the following:

1. The school was hit by IDF forces.
2. In contrast to earlier claims, there was no Hamas fire coming from the school itself.
3. IDF infantry was under fire coming from a yard just outside the school walls.
4. Three mortar bombs were fired at the fire source, twp hitting it directly (killing the two terrorists) and another landing in the UN place.

I don't know what an independent inquiry could add to that. IDF infantry returned fire to fire sources, but mortars are not the most accurate weapons, are they? Unfortunately, troops have to make quick decisions in the battlefield and mortars was the only means the command on the ground could use to stop mortars being fired at our troops. Coupled with a densely populated area this was always going to end in loss of innocent lives. I guess we'll never know the extent of lives lost as a result of Hamas firing at IDF troops.

I just dont understand why one of the most sophisticated armies use mortar fire in such a densely-populated area, especially so near a school which they know will risk killing many women and young children. Surely a more direct assault would have lessened the risk.
 
I just dont understand why one of the most sophisticated armies use mortar fire in such a densely-populated area, especially so near a school which they know will risk killing many women and young children. Surely a more direct assault would have lessened the risk.

there's no doubt about that whatsoever. Mortar fire is inaccurate, but the forces were under fire from that nearby yard and needed to respond quickly (according to reports). It may have been a mistake by the force commander, but that's all that there is to it. It a load of bollocks arguing that the IDF targeted the UN place.

One other aspect of the incident was the committee's reservations about the number of casualties in the incident. The reported 40+ dead doesn't make sense with a hit by one mortar bomb. I reckon the actual scale of the tragedy is lost in the attempt to win what is the real war and that is the war on public opinion taking place in the media.
 
there's no doubt about that whatsoever. Mortar fire is inaccurate, but the forces were under fire from that nearby yard and needed to respond quickly (according to reports). It may have been a mistake by the force commander, but that's all that there is to it. It a load of bollocks arguing that the IDF targeted the UN place.

One other aspect of the incident was the committee's reservations about the number of casualties in the incident. The reported 40+ dead doesn't make sense with a hit by one mortar bomb. I reckon the actual scale of the tragedy is lost in the attempt to win what is the real war and that is the war on public opinion taking place in the media.

I'd agree in that 40+ is a very unlikely casualty list resulting from a single mortar bomb, but you have to take into consideration that among those who have died, not all will have died from the bomb itself, but from other possibilities such as being crushed by falling debris or other objects as a result of the explosion. Apparently quite alot of the civilians were closely bunched together which would no doubt make high casualties more likely.
 
I have not been warned by any mod. There is nothing I have said at any stage that is racist nor unobjective and based without reason. You are welcome not to agree. That you take offence of it is an indication of your blindness and bias. You guys really need to think through what the requirements of debate and exchange of views are about instead of throwing your toys out of the pram the moment a view is too close to the truth.

I stand by every post I have written. Read the newspapers buddy, they speak far more powerfully and eloquently than I do on this matter. But they and millions of others all say the same thing. If I have offended your sensibilities, then I have achieved my task. You know what the other side really thinks. Deal with it instead of crying foul every 2 seconds

Didn´t Sultan lock the thread as a result - I think - of some of your posts

some other poster/s too I believe
 
How could possibly anyone rejoice at – or simply accept - the idea of innocents dying for a war they had no interest in? But (and I hope this won’t be misinterpreted) using the number of dead civilians as a means for determining who’s right and who’s wrong in a conflict is, in my view, a misleading approach.
I’ll take WW2 again. Different situation and all, but just to give an example.
Allied air forces levelled the city of Dresden to the ground, just to cite one. A huge number of civilians died.
Question: would it be right to accuse the Allies of those deaths?
Answer: no. From my point of view (and I believe from the point of view of many here) they’re on Hitler’s conscience, not on Churchill’s or on Eisenhower’s, even if it was Allied bombs that smashed them.

Likewise, we might at least give a possibility to the idea that those who actually caused civilian deaths in Gaza were Hamas – or, well, they had a strong co-responsibility. Putting them all down to IDF seems very biased and short-sighted.

Thats the exact same logic al-Qaeda use when they bomb the big western cities. I don't think any sane person would even try to justfy their actions. Israel however, insults people's intellegence with this mind numbing propaganda full of platitued, half truths and in most cases flat out lies, believing if they repeat it enough educated people might actual believe it.
 
I'd agree in that 40+ is a very unlikely casualty list resulting from a single mortar bomb, but you have to take into consideration that among those who have died, not all will have died from the bomb itself, but from other possibilities such as being crushed by falling debris or other objects as a result of the explosion. Apparently quite alot of the civilians were closely bunched together which would no doubt make high casualties more likely.

Innocent people died there. A war crime wasn't committed. Sadly, the loss of innocent lives is being used for proving a point or scoring points in a political debate. I guess we'll never know the actual death toll at the UN school. Unfortunately, there will be more similar incidents before we see peace in the region.
 
Thats the exact same logic al-Qaeda use when they bomb the big western cities. I don't think any sane person would even try to justfy their actions. Israel however, insults people's intellegence with this mind numbing propaganda full of platitued, half truths and in most cases flat out lies, believing if they repeat it enough educated people might actual believe it.

You mean like the Jenin massacre, or Israel's attack on Lebanon in 2006?
 
I don't think your very easy of the term 'NORMAL collateral damages of urban warfare' is an acceptable one. There is nothing normal about the killing of innocents. It can never be justified. It is the greatest evil of all evil. Maybe you and your family need to experience abit of it yourselves to help you to understand. But Israeli's are so driven by hate filled propaganda, they cant see this. And you seem to have joined this band of people. Oh well.

You're bordering on a straw man argument here. I thought you were enlightened:rolleyes:. Urban warfare is a terrible thing. Urban warfare is a BRUTAL thing. Civilians dying in large numbers during military operations in urban environments is NORMAL. Normal does not mean GOOD. You are misrepresenting what I said intentionally to make an argument that I will obviously cannot disagree with. There is nothing GOOD about civilians dying in large numbers in ANY situation. However civilians dying in LARGE numbers in urban combat is absolutely par for the course. It is completely inevitable, and I won't even talk about the tactics Hamas use to maximize these casualties.

If you are going to accuse Israel of genocide and ethnic cleansing and all that other rubbish because they are operating in an urban environment, then you better label the British as Nazis and the Americans as Nazis. You better call the Russians Nazis too. Every nation that has ever fought a war in an urban environment by your definition is a Nazi.

As to the justification. I suppose then Germany should not have been defeated in WW2 because the taking of German cities was UNJUSTIFIABLE.

So what can one conclude from what you have said? You're a blathering idiot.
 
I just dont understand why one of the most sophisticated armies use mortar fire in such a densely-populated area, especially so near a school which they know will risk killing many women and young children. Surely a more direct assault would have lessened the risk.

You can agree or disagree with the doctrine, but no army on earth will sacrifice it's own soldiers in a situation like this. If they can drop bombs on it and minimize their own casualties while the risk of civilian casualties is limited, they will drop the bombs.

Again, you can choose to agree or disagree but ultimately it is the politicians that make this call, and that is because their constituents don't want to see young men and women in their armed forces coming home in body bags to save a few civilian lives.

Harsh, cruel perhaps? However is reality and that is the truth of the matter.
 
No, I'm refering to the current situation. Israel has yet to specify its goals during this conflict.

I believe Israel already claimed that the reason for the attack was to stop the rocket fire on cities like Sderot and Beersheeba by crippling Hamas.
 
really good article:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html

Henry Siegman

Western governments and most of the Western media have accepted a number of Israeli claims justifying the military assault on Gaza: that Hamas consistently violated the six-month truce that Israel observed and then refused to extend it; that Israel therefore had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s capacity to launch missiles into Israeli towns; that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, part of a global jihadi network; and that Israel has acted not only in its own defence but on behalf of an international struggle by Western democracies against this network.

I am not aware of a single major American newspaper, radio station or TV channel whose coverage of the assault on Gaza questions this version of events. Criticism of Israel’s actions, if any (and there has been none from the Bush administration), has focused instead on whether the IDF’s carnage is proportional to the threat it sought to counter, and whether it is taking adequate measures to prevent civilian casualties.

Middle East peacemaking has been smothered in deceptive euphemisms, so let me state bluntly that each of these claims is a lie. Israel, not Hamas, violated the truce: Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip . . . When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire . . . You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’

The truce, which began in June last year and was due for renewal in December, required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad (even Israel’s intelligence agencies acknowledged this had been implemented with surprising effectiveness), and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions. This understanding was seriously violated on 4 November, when the IDF entered Gaza and killed six members of Hamas. Hamas responded by launching Qassam rockets and Grad missiles. Even so, it offered to extend the truce, but only on condition that Israel ended its blockade. Israel refused. It could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings and rocket fire when it decided to join the Palestinian political process, and largely stuck to it for more than a year. Bush publicly welcomed that decision, citing it as an example of the success of his campaign for democracy in the Middle East. (He had no other success to point to.) When Hamas unexpectedly won the election, Israel and the US immediately sought to delegitimise the result and embraced Mahmoud Abbas, the head of Fatah, who until then had been dismissed by Israel’s leaders as a ‘plucked chicken’. They armed and trained his security forces to overthrow Hamas; and when Hamas – brutally, to be sure – pre-empted this violent attempt to reverse the result of the first honest democratic election in the modern Middle East, Israel and the Bush administration imposed the blockade.

Israel seeks to counter these indisputable facts by maintaining that in withdrawing Israeli settlements from Gaza in 2005, Ariel Sharon gave Hamas the chance to set out on the path to statehood, a chance it refused to take; instead, it transformed Gaza into a launching-pad for firing missiles at Israel’s civilian population. The charge is a lie twice over. First, for all its failings, Hamas brought to Gaza a level of law and order unknown in recent years, and did so without the large sums of money that donors showered on the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority. It eliminated the violent gangs and warlords who terrorised Gaza under Fatah’s rule. Non-observant Muslims, Christians and other minorities have more religious freedom under Hamas rule than they would have in Saudi Arabia, for example, or under many other Arab regimes.

The greater lie is that Sharon’s withdrawal from Gaza was intended as a prelude to further withdrawals and a peace agreement. This is how Sharon’s senior adviser Dov Weisglass, who was also his chief negotiator with the Americans, described the withdrawal from Gaza, in an interview with Ha’aretz in August 2004:

What I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements [i.e. the major settlement blocks on the West Bank] would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns . . . The significance [of the agreement with the US] is the freezing of the political process. And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion about the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package that is called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed from our agenda indefinitely. And all this with [President Bush’s] authority and permission . . . and the ratification of both houses of Congress.

Do the Israelis and Americans think that Palestinians don’t read the Israeli papers, or that when they saw what was happening on the West Bank they couldn’t figure out for themselves what Sharon was up to?

Israel’s government would like the world to believe that Hamas launched its Qassam rockets because that is what terrorists do and Hamas is a generic terrorist group. In fact, Hamas is no more a ‘terror organisation’ (Israel’s preferred term) than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons. According to Benny Morris, it was the Irgun that first targeted civilians. He writes in Righteous Victims that an upsurge of Arab terrorism in 1937 ‘triggered a wave of Irgun bombings against Arab crowds and buses, introducing a new dimension to the conflict’. He also documents atrocities committed during the 1948-49 war by the IDF, admitting in a 2004 interview, published in Ha’aretz, that material released by Israel’s Ministry of Defence showed that ‘there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought . . . In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them, and destroy the villages themselves.’ In a number of Palestinian villages and towns the IDF carried out organised executions of civilians. Asked by Ha’aretz whether he condemned the ethnic cleansing, Morris replied that he did not:

A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

In other words, when Jews target and kill innocent civilians to advance their national struggle, they are patriots. When their adversaries do so, they are terrorists.

It is too easy to describe Hamas simply as a ‘terror organisation’. It is a religious nationalist movement that resorts to terrorism, as the Zionist movement did during its struggle for statehood, in the mistaken belief that it is the only way to end an oppressive occupation and bring about a Palestinian state. While Hamas’s ideology formally calls for that state to be established on the ruins of the state of Israel, this doesn’t determine Hamas’s actual policies today any more than the same declaration in the PLO charter determined Fatah’s actions.
 
These are not the conclusions of an apologist for Hamas but the opinions of the former head of Mossad and Sharon’s national security adviser, Ephraim Halevy. The Hamas leadership has undergone a change ‘right under our very noses’, Halevy wrote recently in Yedioth Ahronoth, by recognising that ‘its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future.’ It is now ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state within the temporary borders of 1967. Halevy noted that while Hamas has not said how ‘temporary’ those borders would be, ‘they know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their co-operation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: they will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.’ In an earlier article, Halevy also pointed out the absurdity of linking Hamas to al-Qaida.

In the eyes of al-Qaida, the members of Hamas are perceived as heretics due to their stated desire to participate, even indirectly, in processes of any understandings or agreements with Israel. [The Hamas political bureau chief, Khaled] Mashal’s declaration diametrically contradicts al-Qaida’s approach, and provides Israel with an opportunity, perhaps a historic one, to leverage it for the better.

Why then are Israel’s leaders so determined to destroy Hamas? Because they believe that its leadership, unlike that of Fatah, cannot be intimidated into accepting a peace accord that establishes a Palestinian ‘state’ made up of territorially disconnected entities over which Israel would be able to retain permanent control. Control of the West Bank has been the unwavering objective of Israel’s military, intelligence and political elites since the end of the Six-Day War.[*] They believe that Hamas would not permit such a cantonisation of Palestinian territory, no matter how long the occupation continues. They may be wrong about Abbas and his superannuated cohorts, but they are entirely right about Hamas.

Middle East observers wonder whether Israel’s assault on Hamas will succeed in destroying the organisation or expelling it from Gaza. This is an irrelevant question. If Israel plans to keep control over any future Palestinian entity, it will never find a Palestinian partner, and even if it succeeds in dismantling Hamas, the movement will in time be replaced by a far more radical Palestinian opposition.

If Barack Obama picks a seasoned Middle East envoy who clings to the idea that outsiders should not present their own proposals for a just and sustainable peace agreement, much less press the parties to accept it, but instead leave them to work out their differences, he will assure a future Palestinian resistance far more extreme than Hamas – one likely to be allied with al-Qaida. For the US, Europe and most of the rest of the world, this would be the worst possible outcome. Perhaps some Israelis, including the settler leadership, believe it would serve their purposes, since it would provide the government with a compelling pretext to hold on to all of Palestine. But this is a delusion that would bring about the end of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state.

Anthony Cordesman, one of the most reliable military analysts of the Middle East, and a friend of Israel, argued in a 9 January report for the Center for Strategic and International Studies that the tactical advantages of continuing the operation in Gaza were outweighed by the strategic cost – and were probably no greater than any gains Israel may have made early in the war in selective strikes on key Hamas facilities. ‘Has Israel somehow blundered into a steadily escalating war without a clear strategic goal, or at least one it can credibly achieve?’ he asks. ‘Will Israel end in empowering an enemy in political terms that it defeated in tactical terms? Will Israel’s actions seriously damage the US position in the region, any hope of peace, as well as moderate Arab regimes and voices in the process? To be blunt, the answer so far seems to be yes.’ Cordesman concludes that ‘any leader can take a tough stand and claim that tactical gains are a meaningful victory. If this is all that Olmert, Livni and Barak have for an answer, then they have disgraced themselves and damaged their country and their friends.’
 
Anyone watch the C4 programme Dispatches called "unseen Gaza"?

Some of the images, many of whom were children, were unbeilebably gruesome!!

Also, Mark Regev the Israeli spokesman was found to be responsible for giving out misleading reports, in one report aired on Ch4 and BBC 2 he mentioned that independent reports suggested that Hamas was operating from the UN school when in fact the independent report actually stated that Hamas were in surronding area and NOT in the UN school.

I think it is now the responsibilty of the UN to make Israel accountable for their actions and to punish them for committing war crimes.

yes i did - well worth watching. Shows how Israel manipulated this conflict to seem they were the good guys fighting against evil terrorists.
 
People in Israel are damn proud that their government has finally stood up and did what it had to do in order to defend its civilians. Thankfully, the matter of our defense is in our own hands so the public opinion across the planet can sometimes come second to public opinion in Israel in order of importance, and when we're bombed we tend to have our own bloody opinion pretty quick.

Having said that, this thread alone suggests that many people (not necessarily die-hard Zionists) think that the Palestinians had this coming.

they had this coming? How so? They've been blockaded since 2007, the access of humanitarian organisations was severely restricted to them, and they had this coming?

Read the Siegman article I posted and respond to the point it makes, if anyone it was Israel who precipitated this conflict.
 
like the map of the 1947 UN agreement? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

the yellow is the arab part

Unfortunately the yellow guys didn't actually accept it.
From the very page you posted:
"The declaration [of indipendence of Israel] was followed by an invasion of the new state by troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War".
It happens sometimes that those who declare wars and lose them, end up by losing territory.
I suspect they shouldn't have started that war in the first place, but I feel we might disagree here.
 
If Israel did not do wrongs in gazza, why they are not revealing info about the soldiers involved in the operation, why its Prime minister pledged to protect them if they did not do any thing wrong : why they fear prosecution for war crimes overseas ?
 
Probably because they know they will be wrongly accused of crimes. So they will help defend them. Are there going to be any investigations or charges for those who are "holding" (also called murdering) Schalit? Highly doubt it. Plus don't Hamas admit they are holding him. Even though I bet they can't produce him.
 
If Israel did not do wrongs in gazza, why they are not revealing info about the soldiers involved in the operation, why its Prime minister pledged to protect them if they did not do any thing wrong : why they fear prosecution for war crimes overseas ?

No harm in being prepared. :)

It's like a man who is brought into questioning with the police and is told he's a suspect. He's not charged, he may well be innocent, but he's still going to ask for a lawyer's advice, isn't he?