Jesus Christ on a stick! You guys are probably trolling but what had Maradona done at 22 that Messi hasn't done? Seriously? Messi's got more to show at the moment. If you compare timeline by timeline I say the comparison is well deserved. It's not like he's an unproven 16 year old who is linked with Barca.
Lionel Messi
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So basically a goal is only a goal if you score it against Inter, Man Utd or Chelsea, because only those sides have top defences?
not even, because messi scored against us, but according to Cal? that goal doesn't count
don't ask me why, he said somethig about ferdinand going out for a smoke or coffee or something
Oh Messi's done far more that is true. It's wether though Messi can go to a small club and be the big fish, truly obliterate other teams like Maradonna did for Napoli. Watch his performances for Napoli, it's breathtaking. Messi does have time on his hands though.
maradona won the Serie A with Napoli when he was 27
Hence why I said Messi has done more at the same age and has time on his hands. Maradonnas years at Napoli he was unbelievably good. Almost like he was being fueled by some special magical powder that made him do things in a higher tempo then everyone else.
i only want messi to play as good as maradona did for argentina, the rest of the games, he can score own goals and go to serie F, for all i care
I honestly hope Messi does poorly at the World Cup this year, I think he is a great player, but a bit of a baby, it will be interesting to see how he does playing for a side that isn't as good as Barcelona
Saw this posted on RAWK
xXavi:
For me, Messi is the best play in the history of football, there's no argument about that. Maradona won shit in European club competitions, while Messi has a ton of awards, two of them being Champions League.
Anyway, this argument isn't even based on awards and titles. The simple and scientific fact is that sport constantly evolves. All sports which have any numbers attached as records are falling by time. Yes, that's right, footballers are too getting more and more athletic. Its all easy and nice to say that "those talented players of old could have adapted". The key is COULD, and a very good chance that they couldn't. I can give a simple good example - Ibra. A very talented player, but will never be world's best simply because his workrate, stamina and athletic build wouldn't allow him. He could be fantastic in a slow paced game, but today's game isn't. And he can't do everything fast. Or he can do, but in an average level. But give him a ball, and he can control it, he has technical ability and talent.
Players like Puskas, Maradona etc. were simply put fat. You can say they could have become thinner, more athletic nowadays. Some people can, some can't - it's called genetics. Its easily possible that legends of old could have been average players. Like Denilson's of this world.
So currently for me, world's record holder in football, in analogy to Usain Bolt, is Messi. And yes, like Usain Bolt, he is the best ever.
xXavi:
For me, Messi is the best play in the history of football, there's no argument about that. Maradona won shit in European club competitions, while Messi has a ton of awards, two of them being Champions League.
Anyway, this argument isn't even based on awards and titles. The simple and scientific fact is that sport constantly evolves. All sports which have any numbers attached as records are falling by time. Yes, that's right, footballers are too getting more and more athletic. Its all easy and nice to say that "those talented players of old could have adapted". The key is COULD, and a very good chance that they couldn't. I can give a simple good example - Ibra. A very talented player, but will never be world's best simply because his workrate, stamina and athletic build wouldn't allow him. He could be fantastic in a slow paced game, but today's game isn't. And he can't do everything fast. Or he can do, but in an average level. But give him a ball, and he can control it, he has technical ability and talent.
Players like Puskas, Maradona etc. were simply put fat. You can say they could have become thinner, more athletic nowadays. Some people can, some can't - it's called genetics. Its easily possible that legends of old could have been average players. Like Denilson's of this world.
So currently for me, world's record holder in football, in analogy to Usain Bolt, is Messi. And yes, like Usain Bolt, he is the best ever.
Spot on
Which great defences did Ronaldo dominate then?
Not saying he didn't, I'd just like to know what constitutes a great defence. Usually a team gets a reputation for having a great defence, precisely because they shackle the top players
Not saying he didn't, I'd just like to know what constitutes a great defence. Usually a team gets a reputation for having a great defence, precisely because they shackle the top players
I agree. Maradona in this era would have made mockery of all of Messi's recent records. Mere word of mouth doesn't describe how good a player the fella was. There mere fact he is considered a worthy rival to Pele should be enough to convince people of the truth of that.
The myth continues. How soon you forgot the semi final vs Chelsea last year.
All the top defences in the Serie A in the mid 90's. Every damn week. Not to mention doing the same at the 1998 world cup. & later in 2002 when he had become less than half the player he used to be.
Messi is brilliant. But he is still learning his trade. He has some way to go before he can consistenlty wreck tough defences the way Zidane and Ronaldo or even Ronaldinho could, on the biggest of occasions. He has all the time to get there.
Ultimate proof Fat Ron couldn't do it, on a cold night in Stoke
Of course these sentiments are bullshit but I have no doubt it was whispered at the time. No player can dominate the greatest defenes consistently, how else would these defences make a name for themselves if every time the big games came around they would ****?
Even Maradona himself could be stopped when teams set out to stop him, this is what great defences pride themselves on
Look, it's just like Messi vs Inter, every time he had the ball he gets pretty much surrounded at times.
These players mentioned have had very long careers, so they would have a good number of times when they would have ripped great defences to shreads, and the same would be said about Lionel Messi when he calls it a day.
Zidane never consistently dominated big games although he had alot of great games against the bigger teams throughout his career. I still remmber him being comfortably shackled by Madrid in the CL Final. When we look back at careers of greats we sometimes naturally look at things in a very selective way and the same will be done for Messi in 10 years time.
When we say he's scored many times against Madrid at the age of 22, people say their defence is shit, but in a few years people would not say that.
When the next upcoming talent is being compared to Messi, people would talk about those very goals, "yeah but he needs to dominate the big game like Messi did, like when he scored a hatrick against Madrid in 2006"
Of course these sentiments are bullshit but I have no doubt it was whispered at the time. No player can dominate the greatest defenes consistently, how else would these defences make a name for themselves if every time the big games came around they would ****?
Even Maradona himself could be stopped when teams set out to stop him, this is what great defences pride themselves on
Look, it's just like Messi vs Inter, every time he had the ball he gets pretty much surrounded at times.
These players mentioned have had very long careers, so they would have a good number of times when they would have ripped great defences to shreads, and the same would be said about Lionel Messi when he calls it a day.
Zidane never consistently dominated big games although he had alot of great games against the bigger teams throughout his career. I still remmber him being comfortably shackled by Madrid in the CL Final. When we look back at careers of greats we sometimes naturally look at things in a very selective way and the same will be done for Messi in 10 years time.
When we say he's scored many times against Madrid at the age of 22, people say their defence is shit, but in a few years people would not say that.
When the next upcoming talent is being compared to Messi, people would talk about those very goals, "yeah but he needs to dominate the big game like Messi did, like when he scored a hatrick against Madrid in 2006"
I wonder how many times during his career Maradona was shut out in matches and didn't manage to do much. No one remembers those things, of course. You don't see highlights of that anywhere. Just the big moments. And there were plenty of those. And there are plenty of those for Messi. You can't win them all, and he didn't, but he's already done plenty. So, he's human. But still a brilliant player.
Agreed.
he struggled a lot when he first came to Italy. Took a while for him to find his feet, but that seems to be glossed over now.
He was actually very good in that game, and was driving France towards victory almost on his own before he was sent off - which would've been the second World Cup Final he'd done it in, which would probably have put him on a par with Pele....they looked the far more likely to win, and were the more deserving that night, until the sending off...in fact about 2 minutes before that he'd had a great header brilliantly saved by Buffon that would've won it, after chipping in a ridiculous pen early on. He didn't have an off night, he had an off moment.
Is this written by a child who's watched one season of football?...genetics? World Record Holder?...he isn't even close to being a world record holder..many people have achieved more than him....Is it basically saying that every generation of players is much better than the last by default?...that's rubbish, and bares no comparison with running in a straight line.
This thread is swinging all over the place....First he's better than Pele/Mara/Zizou and Fat Ron...then he's shit...then all of those lot were actually shit...then ...feck knows...He's a great player. There's no debate. But he doesn't deserve to be bracketed near them yet on the back of 4 years, 2 of which he's been the best, playing for a great club, when those players legends were forged over long careers....simples. Maybe one day, but that's long off right now.
He was quiet last night for sure, had one great shot saved and created a golden chance for Bojan but otherwise didnt look himself. He looked to lack a bit of confidence. The whole Barcelona team did really.
Dinho played against 'peak' defences and demonstrated strength and magic on the ball... he didn't go missing in action and then pop up with a goal here and there... he was usually at the forefront of what Barca did and a constant menace.
Messi in his first game v Chelsea and in the home game v ourselves during 07/08 was great, very good to watch and he demonstrated a high amount of quality on the ball.. confusing top level defenders and creating havoc... despite this he still failed to run the game but seeing as he is so young thats hardly a criticism.
However now he is of a higher profile and he is expected to drive his team and bring his team back into games when they're down and unlock the best defences and dominate v them.. not just score the odd goal here and there.
His problem is, he has one trick.. drops his right shoulder and weaves inside with his left... okay great it works against 95% of opposition who despite knowing what he's going to do.. don't really have the quality defenders to A) keep their level of concentration going for 90 minutes and push him to his right foot and B) lack the speed and strength to even execute such a defensive tactic.
You'll say .. but Maradona did the same thing didn't he? well no.. allied to that dribbling technique, Maradona also had superb skill.. 'tricks' that could befuddle even the best of defenders and he also possessed superior strength on the ball.. playing against more dangerous callous defenders, he stayed on his feet more often than not.. but not just that.. over the course of his career.. he proved he can play against the best defenders in the world and make them look stupid.
Note the word 'over the course of his career'. When Maradona was 21/22 at the 1982 World Cup.. he failed, playing in one of the greatest Argentina squads of all time.. he failed to take them to victory... but it was definitely in terms of quality one of the greatest most competitive World Cups of all time. He rectified this four years later and four years after that took the Argies to another final.
Yet we seem in a rush to proclaim Messi as the best of all time.. why? He has done feck all in terms of dominance in big matches and apart from a goal in a Champions League final which many before him have done.. what has he done.. to be labelled amongst the greats in history.
Does he have the ability to be up there by the time his career ends? yes of course. Do I think he'll be up there? Yes I do. Does he deserve to be up there right now based on his current achievements and performances v the best defences? No... and thats where alot of you are crossing the line.
Big lack of respect for Footballing history.
Bloody hell Raees, you post a video of Ronaldinho contributing 2 mins of action, against Chelsea who played with 10 men for the majority of second half as an example of how to dominate big games, no wonder Messi hasn't got a chance.
Also in the return leg he scored a brilliant goal but was well shackled for the majority of the game, it's the same as saying 'messi scored in the cl final but many have done so before him', no there's no respect for the new generation.
Also in the return leg he scored a brilliant goal but was well shackled for the majority of the game, it's the same as saying 'messi scored in the cl final but many have done so before him', no there's no respect for the new generation.
Ronaldinho has proved himself at the top level Boss.. Zidane has done it... Fat Ronaldo has done it... all three didn't just score winning goals in the greatest competitions.. they ran games v the best defences.
Yes they had bad games... who doesn't... but over the course of their careers, they proved it... they done it against peak defences one time or another.
The current generation, Ronaldo and Messi have begun to develop the art of doing this.. the first stage has been to effectively score against Big teams... although both have a poor socring rate v the Best teams.. it is something that has improved.
The second stage is completely dominating a top class defence, not just goals alone.. but running a game and making a top class defence look silly.
Both have yet to do any of this and when they do.. then we can acclaim them.
Saying I think Messi will go on to be the best of all time.. is perfectly fine. Saying Messi is already better than the likes of Zidane and Ronaldo.. based on his achievements to date... is just plain wrong.
Just be patient and enjoy Messi's development..likewise Rooney and Ronaldo.
Yes they had bad games... who doesn't... but over the course of their careers, they proved it... they done it against peak defences one time or another.
The current generation, Ronaldo and Messi have begun to develop the art of doing this.. the first stage has been to effectively score against Big teams... although both have a poor socring rate v the Best teams.. it is something that has improved.
The second stage is completely dominating a top class defence, not just goals alone.. but running a game and making a top class defence look silly.
Both have yet to do any of this and when they do.. then we can acclaim them.
Saying I think Messi will go on to be the best of all time.. is perfectly fine. Saying Messi is already better than the likes of Zidane and Ronaldo.. based on his achievements to date... is just plain wrong.
Just be patient and enjoy Messi's development..likewise Rooney and Ronaldo.
Agreed and this generation will too, given the chance, all I'm saying is we can be very selective when talking about how the older generaton ran defences ragged and it would be the same when Messi he hangs up his boots.
The videos posted of Ronaldinho are not an example of him dominating a game, you should have posted the return leg against Chelsea in 2005 or his game at the San Siro etc
Is this a piss-take?
First, in the second leg, Barca played largely conservatively. This is obvious. For once, they didn't really try to overwhelm the opposition. They had a 2-1 aggregate lead from the away tie, after all.
Second: what a goal! Touch into space, past Makelele and John the Brave English LionHeart (TM) like he wasn't there. That's simply what great players do: they find a way however quiet they've been.
I was talking about the 2004/05 season, he wasn't great in the second leg despite scoring that spectacular goal, in the same way people bash Messi for not being great against us and Ferdinand's lapse of concentration or something like that.
The second leg of the 2005/06 season I thought he was really good.
No, there is. But we'd like to wait until they've had the same length of career as the older generation players before comparing them and knee-jerkly claiming they're better than them already after 2 seasons at the very top.
Can you not see that's quite mad Boss?
Yeah it is very mad, but after watching Messi for so long I honestly think he is as naturally gifted as Zizou despite what he's won etc, you just have to watch videos of the two to know this in my opinion.
Anyway It's mad to claim he's better already and I'm wrong for that but I don't see why he wouldn't prove it over his career unless something very odd happens to him.
Arsenal had agent Silvestre at CB that game, and if I'm not mistaken, Silvestre passed the ball straight to Messi a number of times.
Liverpool, Chelsea in 07/08, even the L'Arse defence back then was better than the one containing agent Silvestre at the Camp Nou.
Even last night, when he along with the rest of the team didn't play, well it took an outstanding save from Cesar and a shocking miss from Bojan to stop him winning the tie.
United were one of the following away from beating Bayern and surely making the final:
1. Rooney chance in 1st half in 1st leg,
2. Vidic header 2 inches lower in 2nd half in 1st leg,
3. Nani chance in 1st half in 2nd leg,
4. Referee not buckling under "typical German" pressure in Rafael incident,
5. etc
Your point being?
We were very unlucky to be fair, missed a big chance.
I still think Bayern are shit, they do have a good gaffer mind.
So to prove you're a true great, you have to do it against Liverpool?!
scored two goals today and other two goals last weekend, so he went up to 44 this season
i know, he didn't score against good defenses he only scored in la liga or in the champions league, not in the premier,
so in the Cal? scale it would be like he scored 12
i know, he didn't score against good defenses he only scored in la liga or in the champions league, not in the premier,
so in the Cal? scale it would be like he scored 12
he set up another and both his finishes were excellent.
he's turned into the best finisher in the world.
he's turned into the best finisher in the world.
Being rested against Inter has done wonders for his form.
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