the general consensus seems to be that we are only two or three new signings away from being brilliant again.
if this is true.......why all the panic??
if this is true.......why all the panic??
ALL post Rooney transfer and policy funding discussion(NO player speculation allowed)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
We're just trying to get your ticker going 
Most people don't think we'll make the signings, and that by the time we do we'll be two or three signings away again.
Sort of like the scousers and their infamous jigsaw puzzle.
Sort of like the scousers and their infamous jigsaw puzzle.
Because we can't afford those 2-3 quality signings. Simple as that.
The debt and interest rates are sinking their teeth into the club, meaning attracting/retaining the top talent is going to become increasingly difficult for MUFC in the years to come.
The debt and interest rates are sinking their teeth into the club, meaning attracting/retaining the top talent is going to become increasingly difficult for MUFC in the years to come.
We're 2 or 3 signings away, but they're 2 or 3 big signings. We can't do what we did last Summer and buy promising youth like Hernandez and Smalling, we'll need big names that can impact instantly.
Sounds simple, but can we afford them, and can we attract them? Some say yes, some same no. Time will tell.
Sounds simple, but can we afford them, and can we attract them? Some say yes, some same no. Time will tell.
We're skint, didn' ya know?
I think a major element of the "panic" and "doom" is that Rooney was perceived as a keystone for the future United; i.e. after SAF, Giggs, Scholes, Neville and Van der Sar retire the new United will rise and form around Rooney as future captain, club icon and heartbeat of the team.
Now we're looking at a point where in a few years we will have lost SAF, Giggs, Neville, Scholes, VdS, Rio, Berbatov, Carrick and now Rooney too.
In my opinion it's possibly something of a blessing in disguise, as I'd hate to see us go down Liverpool's route of building everything upon the shoulders of one man (Stevie Me). Manchester United is a football club, a team - with or without Rooney. He's just a player.
Now we're looking at a point where in a few years we will have lost SAF, Giggs, Neville, Scholes, VdS, Rio, Berbatov, Carrick and now Rooney too.
In my opinion it's possibly something of a blessing in disguise, as I'd hate to see us go down Liverpool's route of building everything upon the shoulders of one man (Stevie Me). Manchester United is a football club, a team - with or without Rooney. He's just a player.
Big signing's or right signing?
I see us in the same position as 06/07 when we bought Carrick which completed our midfield and won us the league, then bought Hargreaves, Nani and Anderson the following year which tipped us to the European Cup/League Double.
A quality Midfielder like Sneijder or De Rossi and an explosive winger like Sanchez and our first team would compete with anyone and our sqaud would have enough potential for the future.
If we're that skint then wouldn't the Glazers sell up? I'm pretty sure us sliding down the table isn't very good financially for them. I'd suspect There'll be substantial investment if we lose Rooney.
We have no money to spend and now many of our players could be thinking hey we can't keep hold of our best players why bother staying, we might as well pack our bags and leave the club.
I believe all of those would be classed as big signings.
I don't see where you're coming from anyway. A signing always has to be the 'right' signing, big or not. It's a given.
Sorry, the examples weren't the best after my statement
What I meant was, back in 06/07 we needed Carrick, not a big signing by any means and alot of fans even moaned about his £14m (rising to £18.6m depending on success) price tag. But he was the difference needed, I think we're in that position now. Let's say we got Defour for £10m-£15m. He wouldn't need 20 assists to make this team work, just be part of the passing midfield we are missing that would help control games. That could then be the basis we build out success on.
Fergies never gonna let poor Giggs and Scholes retire at this rate.
Sorry, the examples weren't the best after my statement
What I meant was, back in 06/07 we needed Carrick, not a big signing by any means and alot of fans even moaned about his £14m (rising to £18.6m depending on success) price tag. But he was the difference needed, I think we're in that position now. Let's say we got Defour for £10m-£15m. He wouldn't need 20 assists to make this team work, just be part of the passing midfield we are missing that would help control games. That could then be the basis we build out success on.
And the Caf went mad about Carrick being rubbish and a horrible signing.
Fast forward and they were creaming over Nani and Anderson who both struggled at times to make an impact. Hargreaves the Caf has always been divided on.
Sorry, the examples weren't the best after my statement
What I meant was, back in 06/07 we needed Carrick, not a big signing by any means and alot of fans even moaned about his £14m (rising to £18.6m depending on success) price tag. But he was the difference needed, I think we're in that position now. Let's say we got Defour for £10m-£15m. He wouldn't need 20 assists to make this team work, just be part of the passing midfield we are missing that would help control games. That could then be the basis we build out success on.
I think this is a bit different than 06/07 really. We had a much younger squad back then, a Scholes, Giggs and VDS in their prime, a Rooney and Ronaldo always likely to set the world on fire. An injury free Rio Ferdinand. We had just signed Vidic and Evra 6 months before that.
I agree Defour would be a super signing, and by 'big' signings I don't necessarily mean the big names like Sniejder or Pato or whomever. I just mean players likely to make an instant impact. Defour, Hamsik, Bale, Rodallega. We can't do what we did last Summer and take a punt on youngsters like Smalling and Bebe this time round.
If Rooney is gone, and VDS, Scholes, Giggs and Neville more than likely retire, then one player ala Carrick is not going to fix things, no way.
Again, FAO all those saying that we've got no money, consider my post to ralphie yesterday...
Believe it or not (most of you wont) but there is already plenty of money there to be spent and it makes solid business sense to spend it wisely with healthy investment in the playing squad. Do not let our transfer activity over the last twelve months fool you; United are far from being skint.
ciderman said:
ralphie said:
ciderman said:
Believe it or not (most of you wont) but there is already plenty of money there to be spent and it makes solid business sense to spend it wisely with healthy investment in the playing squad. Do not let our transfer activity over the last twelve months fool you; United are far from being skint.
No cash to spend. We're losing quality and replacing it with value. That's ok if we want to keep coming 2nd, and soon 3rd, 4th and 5th. But it's not going to keep win us titles. It's not panic, it's the slow realization that with Glazers in charge this is where we are headed.
Did we though?
Sure, Scholes and Giggs were younger and we had a young Rooney and Ronaldo but look at our young players now:
Rafael, Fabio, Hernandez, Macheda, Evans, Anderson, Nani and Smalling. They are still very much players for the future.
Now the "young" players of 06/07 have grown into the experienced players at our club, Fletcher, Ferdinand, Park, Vidic, Evra, O'Shea and Brown.
As for the players soon retiring, Neville, Scholes, Giggs and Van Der Sar; Neville has a natural replacement in Rafael and backup in Brown and O'Shea, Scholes is not yet replaced, and some might say irreplacable but we will need to find someone, Giggs as a winger we have Nani and Valencia as first choice replacement's already while Van Der Sar will need to be replaced although I think PIG can hold his own for the short term if we don't get a replacement in time.
It's really not as scary as things are being made out.
Its like wit Labour, innit?
Yes we know the money is there, in fact it has been there since we got the £80m for ronaldo and the AON money £40m was it?
That does not mean we will or even have to spend it. Hernadez has been brought in plus Welbeck and Macheda are developing.
If they are not good enough then I would imagine they would be shipped out and then replacements brought in.
Well yes, we most certainly did. Our oldest players then are our oldest players now, apart from Solskjaer, who wasn't really much of a figure that season. We didn't have as big a squad maybe but we had a stronger first XI and subs bench, that's for sure. Carrick was the missing link we needed back then. I don't ever recall anyone saying we needed anything other than a Keano replacement in midfield, we got that in Carrick, though at the time it wasn't what most people wanted.
Well Nani is already our best winger, Evans is already our 3rd choice CB, Rafael is basically our first choice RB. Anderson, feck knows. Smalling looks promising. The jury is still very much out on Macheda and Fabio.
Young? They were all at least 25 going into 06/07 (bar Fletcher maybe?), how is that young? Every single one of those players was just about to enter the peak of their career. Now they're all either in the peak of their career or about to fall out of it.
Now, this is where it lies. You've pretty much named all 3 positions we need replacements in right there, and that's without even mentioning the fact that our best striker is probably off. We do need a new keeper, PIG isn't good enough, simples. Hopefully De Gea perhaps. We need a Scholes replacement, no doubt. A playmaker of some sort, a Defour, a Hamsik, whomever. We need another winger. Nani is almost wasted on the left so I don't want him AND Valencia being our first choice all the time. Get a Bale, a Sanchez.
And Rooney? Well, if we include a replacement for him that's 4 signings needed. Luckily our best youth options are our strikers.
I don't mean to be negative, I just think that we realistically do need to sign a few players, it ain't like 06/07, not in the slightest.
Haha to read this crap half of you spout. We have a business model in place. I just read someone talk about the AON money to spend!?!? Not every penny coming into the club goes to a transfer kitty. As well as loans etc there are bills, wages, etc to be paid. It makes no sense to get 40million from AON and buy a player with it and struggle to pay bills.
Also reading half of you talk about buying a big player etc. Does a big player change the fortunes instantly? Veron didn't? Berbatov didn't for a while. Robinho didnt at City? Nor did Lescott? Big name signings simply sell shirts. You only pay for the name. Look at Ronaldo, Nani, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane...hardly established big name world class players once they joined the club at youth level or senior level.
Judge the quality of a player with what he can produce when it matters.
In my opinion we made a massive signing this summer in Hernandez and for a bargain. I guarantee had Chivas Guadalajara sold him after the World cup he would have went for double and likely to Madrid Barca or City.
We aren't poor, we just spend when we need to and when we want something.
Full sympathy to Ciderman here as everyone will go against what he says and ive seen it in other threads. Everyone reads the hype and believes it. In reality there are loans....but in reality we are makin payments and carrying on and in the midst of running one of the worlds most successful and profitable business models
Also reading half of you talk about buying a big player etc. Does a big player change the fortunes instantly? Veron didn't? Berbatov didn't for a while. Robinho didnt at City? Nor did Lescott? Big name signings simply sell shirts. You only pay for the name. Look at Ronaldo, Nani, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Keane...hardly established big name world class players once they joined the club at youth level or senior level.
Judge the quality of a player with what he can produce when it matters.
In my opinion we made a massive signing this summer in Hernandez and for a bargain. I guarantee had Chivas Guadalajara sold him after the World cup he would have went for double and likely to Madrid Barca or City.
We aren't poor, we just spend when we need to and when we want something.
Full sympathy to Ciderman here as everyone will go against what he says and ive seen it in other threads. Everyone reads the hype and believes it. In reality there are loans....but in reality we are makin payments and carrying on and in the midst of running one of the worlds most successful and profitable business models
This is a freak Scenario though, take out Scholes, Giggs, Van Der Sar and Neville and there is no difference in our sqauds age wise other than the fact we now have a plethora of genuinely quality young talent at our disposal.
Just my point, compare that to 06/07 and the young players we had then aside from Rooney and Ronaldo? Rossi, Pique, Richardson, Jones and Shawcross.
Compare that again to Rafael, Fabio, Hernandez, Macheda, Evans, Anderson, Nani and Smalling.
I said "young". Like I just said above we really lacked genuinely young talented players.
I disagree, I really do.
Lets say we sign De Gea and Defour.
De Gea
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Fletcher - Carrick - Defour - Nani
Hernandez - Berbatov
as a 4-4-2 with Nani switching wings, Scholes and Fletcher playing deeper and Defour dropping in the hole when attacking.
or
De Gea
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Valencia - Fletcher - Carrick - Defour - Nani
Berbatov
in Europe away games.
That is a team and sqaud capable of challenging with just two additions. I'm not saying it definately would win everything, but who is to say that Ozil, Sneijder and De Rossi added to our team would either?
It's got a balance in the team and in the squad and it lets our young players come through still.
A plethora? Really? None of them are guaranteed to make it. None of them can ever be as good as Rooney and Ronaldo were always likely to be. And taking out Scholes, Giggs, and VDS is a pretty fecking big deal isn't it? They were all hugely instrumental in those 3 super successful seasons. You can't just 'take them out'
You can't class Nani as youth, he's 23, nearly 24. By your terms he'd by "youth". I'll agree that there is more talented youth at the club now though, but there ain't as much PROVEN talent, not with Ronaldo gone, Rooney going, and those big guns retiring.
Lets say we sign De Gea and Defour.
Ah so we're signing 2 players now, not one?
That is a team and sqaud capable of challenging with just two additions. I'm not saying it definately would win everything, but who is to say that Ozil, Sneijder and De Rossi added to our team would either?
It's got a balance in the team and in the squad and it lets our young players come through still.
When did I mention either of those 3? I didn't, you did
Compare your new 'first xi', I'm leaving out De Gea, because you said PIG would be perfectly fine and we only needed a Defour type player to reclick or whatever.
Kuszcack
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Fletcher - Carrick - Defour - Nani
Hernandez - Berbatov
to our 06/07 First xi:
VDS
Neville Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Ronaldo Carrick Scholes Giggs
Rooney Saha
Given the ages of the players in the respective years, do you genuinely think that teams close to the level of 06/07? And let's not even bother naming our best XI in 07/08, will we?
A plethora? Really? None of them are guaranteed to make it. None of them can ever be as good as Rooney and Ronaldo were always likely to be. And taking out Scholes, Giggs, and VDS is a pretty fecking big deal isn't it? They were all hugely instrumental in those 3 super successful seasons. You can't just 'take them out'
You can't class Nani as youth, he's 23, nearly 24. By your terms he'd by "youth". I'll agree that there is more talented youth at the club now though, but there ain't as much PROVEN talent, not with Ronaldo gone, Rooney going, and those big guns retiring.
When did I mention either of those 3? I didn't, you did
Compare your new 'first xi', I'm leaving out De Gea, because you said PIG would be perfectly fine and we only needed a Defour type player to reclick or whatever.
Kuszcack
Rafael - Ferdinand - Vidic - Evra
Fletcher - Carrick - Defour - Nani
Hernandez - Berbatov
to our 06/07 First xi:
VDS
Neville Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Ronaldo Carrick Scholes Giggs
Rooney Saha
Given the ages of the players in the respective years, do you genuinely think that teams close to the level of 06/07? And let's not even bother naming our best XI in 07/08, will we?
Add to that, the fact that all the other top teams are much better now than they were in 06/07 and there lies the problemo.
Agreed. I'm just pointing out that the money is there and that it will be made available for transfers as and when it's needed; the Glazers will not restrict our spending because it just would not make business sense to do so. We're always told that all the Glazers care about is money, and i agree with that statement fully, but if you look at the situation and analyse how the club might move forward over the next seven years (when our debts mature in 2017) you'll see quite clearly that the best way for the Glazers to make money from the club is not to extract every penny entitled to them through dividend agreements, but to prioritize healthy squad investment.
How SAF sees the future of the team is his decision to make and his alone, i'm simply pointing out that, whatever that vision may be, both the funds and the motivation are there from the owners to enable him to realise it.
United at crossroads
I think this Rooney situation will open up a whole pandoras box about what state the club really is in. Its my view that when he does leave United and Fergie have to put everything on the table for everyone to see.
There are only two roads open to us now and it will be interesting and probably gut wrenching to see which one we take. We either continue on with this current transfer policy/PR campaign about having the money but no value in the market or we actively recruit world class talent at the top of their game.
I personally think now we are 4 top class players away from the heights of 2008 with Rooneys impending departure and I have serious doubts about our ability to get them. I think the spectre of Liverpools demise is whats really worrying us, more so than a petulant arrogant immature manchild who doesnt know a good thing when he sees it.
When this all falls into place and the football world will be watching Fergie and Gill we will finally know how healthy our club is.
I think this Rooney situation will open up a whole pandoras box about what state the club really is in. Its my view that when he does leave United and Fergie have to put everything on the table for everyone to see.
There are only two roads open to us now and it will be interesting and probably gut wrenching to see which one we take. We either continue on with this current transfer policy/PR campaign about having the money but no value in the market or we actively recruit world class talent at the top of their game.
I personally think now we are 4 top class players away from the heights of 2008 with Rooneys impending departure and I have serious doubts about our ability to get them. I think the spectre of Liverpools demise is whats really worrying us, more so than a petulant arrogant immature manchild who doesnt know a good thing when he sees it.
When this all falls into place and the football world will be watching Fergie and Gill we will finally know how healthy our club is.
With or without Rooney the situation was exactly the same.
If this changes one thing, it just brings about the decline a bit quicker. A decline that was going to happen whether ROoney signed that deal or not.
When Rooney goes we'll really see where we stand as a club, i said that yesterday in another thread, theres no hiding behind any of this value stuff now were not in a position to be picky about a few million here or there, we need players and top level ones at that, when Rooney goes so does our last remaining superstar, our last figurehead of the team, theres no fall-back, we need to invest and invest heavily especially with the old guard coming to the end.
Itll be a very interesting next 6 months or so, if we continue to hear theres no value out there after losing Rooney and we're happy with what we've got then frankly we're fecked, i personally dont believe we'll do that though, i dont think we can afford to do that, Rooney needs replacing as do 2 or 3 others, use this situation is a springboard to rebuild this team and go again.
Itll be a very interesting next 6 months or so, if we continue to hear theres no value out there after losing Rooney and we're happy with what we've got then frankly we're fecked, i personally dont believe we'll do that though, i dont think we can afford to do that, Rooney needs replacing as do 2 or 3 others, use this situation is a springboard to rebuild this team and go again.
To be honest, I'm worried that the Rooney incidient might serve to drag out the uncertainty, rather than bring anything to a head.
Ever since we sold Ronaldo, the quesiont of whetehr money was available to invest in the squad has been unanswerable. If you set a benchmark of £20m net investment per season, then that is £120m to spend straight off the bat. Even the most enthusiastic transfer muppet (or Shiekh) would struggle to get through that. So we've been in limbo, not knowing whether the owners were willing or able to put cash into the transfer market or not.
The only way the question would be answered would be a massive spending spree, which would be daft, or several years of underinvestment, after which we could say that the "Ronaldo money" had definitely gone.
Another £50m for Rooney wwill only exacerbate the situation. Even if we spend the lot on a big name, we are only even on the deal, leaving us back where we were in terms of answering the question, but a couple of years further away from being able to say...
...alternatively, if there is no like for like replacement, I suppose that proves things pretty quickly!
Ever since we sold Ronaldo, the quesiont of whetehr money was available to invest in the squad has been unanswerable. If you set a benchmark of £20m net investment per season, then that is £120m to spend straight off the bat. Even the most enthusiastic transfer muppet (or Shiekh) would struggle to get through that. So we've been in limbo, not knowing whether the owners were willing or able to put cash into the transfer market or not.
The only way the question would be answered would be a massive spending spree, which would be daft, or several years of underinvestment, after which we could say that the "Ronaldo money" had definitely gone.
Another £50m for Rooney wwill only exacerbate the situation. Even if we spend the lot on a big name, we are only even on the deal, leaving us back where we were in terms of answering the question, but a couple of years further away from being able to say...
...alternatively, if there is no like for like replacement, I suppose that proves things pretty quickly!
We're not attracting the top players
Y'know what. I can't be to mad at Wayne. He's looking at his career, and look at the shit we're in.
You can dig your head in the sands all you want.
But this isn't just guesswork. This is the Glazers ownership directly influencing our team. This is what we have to put up with.
Thankyou Wayne, now maybe others will open their eyes.
GREEN AND GOLD TILL THE CLUB IS SOLD.
Y'know what. I can't be to mad at Wayne. He's looking at his career, and look at the shit we're in.
You can dig your head in the sands all you want.
But this isn't just guesswork. This is the Glazers ownership directly influencing our team. This is what we have to put up with.
Thankyou Wayne, now maybe others will open their eyes.
GREEN AND GOLD TILL THE CLUB IS SOLD.
Just feck off, basically.
No way back for him now. Basically he's telling his teammates you aren't good enough.
Where are all these quotes ? Confirmed where?
This squad finished 1 point off a 4th straight title less than 4 months ago and miles ahead of City, its a bull shit cover story, City have said to him basically whatever United offer you we'll double it and hes seen nothing but £££ since, feck him.
That's not what he's saying at all.
What he's saying is, that we cant attract the players we need.
We've heard it from our very own best player. FFS. What more do some people want?