Thus saith Kemo.
World Cup 2018 & 2022 bids
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
the ends do not justify the means.
The world cup isn't about the football and hasn't been about the football for about 20 years. It is a international party/cultural festival, mixed with a bit of nationalistic pride and flag waving with some football on the side. who's arsed where they hold it?
For me, outing corruption in sports 2nd biggest worldwide organisation is a good enough reason in itself - to you it seems you should only do it if you stand to benefit directly. Why the feck should fifa get away with being bent? How isnt it beneficial to expose corruption, at whatever juncture, if the problem was never dealt with and the individuals who are corrupt remain in place?
I just dont get it - i get why they wouldnt vote for england but i dont get why you dont think it's a bad thing that decisions are made for the interests and self preservation of a small group of men rather than on the basis of who is best equipped to act as host.
I'm not particularly bothered one way or another. I am bothered by the world game being run by a corrupt coterie.
True...I think that's why so many people hoped it would be held somewhere that was used to holding big football matches and had such a natural passion for the game. Just to try and get it back on track again.....
That is not even close to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is corruption deserves to be exposed but ONLY be people that want actual change and improvement to the system. Not people just doing it for the feck of it and to only benefit themselves. The actions of the British press didn't benefit anyone but themselves. It didn't benefit football, Fifa, the process or the England bid. It has nothing to do with wanting them playing to corrupt rules. Instead they preferred to play to their own rules rather than the rules of duty and common sense doing a disservice to all in the process. If you genuinely think that is worth praising then there is no point continuing this further. For I'll will never agree to that.
You mean like Brazil? Oh wait ...
I'm bothered where they hold it cos I'm bothered how it affects the performances and the atmospheres...It's all very well for people who don't care about international football or see it as a bit of a distraction to whitter on about how unimportant it is, but those of us who do care would like the best tournament if possible with the best fans in the best mood cheering on the best players at their best..
It's too early to damn any of these bids for not providing that yet, but the fact that it's a side issue to the decision making itself is very central to why I have a problem with it.
It's too early to damn any of these bids for not providing that yet, but the fact that it's a side issue to the decision making itself is very central to why I have a problem with it.
You forgot what you were saying.....or have you had to rush off.
So investigative journalism is of no value to you? Actually, negative value?
Hows the preparations going on out in Brazil for 2014 Marcelo? Should be the last good World cup for years that.
Are you kidding me. I've been going ballistic about your press doing just that. Your press did it because they alone stood to benefit directly, rather than anyone else. Yet you are happily applauding their deeds!.I marvel that it hasn't dawned on you that no one but your press has benefited from their actions.
If I was to do that I could as well go ahead and also call for the cancellation of all political elections everywhere. After all the electorate are always incapable of being 100% objective and they always hold all the cards, to their own benefit. Bottom line democracy also has a price. You always depend on the ego of the individual and his personal biases for his vote. Mess with him and he messes you up. He won't give a shit how noble your cause was or how much merit you are worth. That's politics.
That is why it has always proven wise to point out anomalies of a voting process before it has started and after it has ended when hoping to effect positive change. Rather than bang in the middle of everything. For all you will breed is confusion and bitterness.
It's of value to me when it is noble. Not when it is selfish self righteous bullshit. The intent of the British press was clearly malicious, not positive. But from many on here that truth is very well hidden.
What preparations?
We still don't have a stadium in our biggest city, São Paulo, because the one that was there and the local club was willing to prop up with about US$ 300 million, got canned by FIFA. São Paulo's state government seems to be the only reasonable one in Brazil, so they don't want to pay for a fecking new stadium. Corinthians came up with a plan for a new stadium outsides the city, and it might go through because our almighty Presidente Lula is close with Corinthians.
The public bid to build and manage the stadium in Natal got shit canned because someone tried to rig the rules so that the winning company had to hire a certain consulting company, but thankfully our courts figured out that is illegal. But more to the point, there's not a single brick layed of what will someday, somehow, be a stadium.
In Rio the work at Maracanã is on, and its also starting in Belo Horizonte. Both are extensive modernizations of existing stadiums. Elsewhere I'm not too sure.
Hotels are still an issue, because, oh, guess what, its not profitable to build a new hotel just because of a 1-month event.
Transport is the main issue, nothing is done, and I'll tell you nothing will be done. The only way to get around Brazil is by plane, and our airports and airlines run one of the shittiest outfits you've ever seen. Most flights are delayed during normal times of year, during peak times like the summer shit hits the fan and you end up stranded at the airport for hours just because.
There was talk about privatising the airports, but its sort of lost momentum and I really don't see anything major happening in the next few years because nothing is on the cards. As far as I can tell, it will be shit.
On a positive note, security in Rio should be a bit better now that the Government have finally decided to stop taking the money from drug-dealers and actually go after them (God knows how that happened)
As you can see, I'm not very positive about the Brazil WC. This country is a grand mess, and a WC here will be just like SA. It looks OK, afterall it is the World Cup, and a little something was done. But compared to Germany, or a potential World Cup in England, US, etc., its going to be poor.
And in the end I just feel a bit angered by all the regular people who love the idea of the WC and Olympics here. They don't seem to grasp the fact that they're paying for stadiums soon to be useless, that will run up to about 200% of their budget, when what this country really needs are better roads, more housing, better public transport, more hospitals, modern ports and airports (not schools though, we built a lot of those in the last 2 decades... just to show that I'm not being general, all the things I said Brazil really needs more than footie stadiums).
What are the chances of Brazil losing the right to host 2014?
Who's to say it was malicious, certainly not you.
Maybe it was a precursor to what will come later. Maybe the press knew that the corruption they found out about was still going on. Maybe, just maybe it was a warning to FIFA to stop the corruption before the vote.
Maybe FIFA didn't listen and maybe now we just sit patiently and wait for the repercussions.
I haven't been in this thread at all yet. Here's my two cents if anyone gives a flying feck.
It's no good acting incredulous after the event and complaining about corruption/collusion, when for weeks and months prior to the bid, the people at the top of our game (Andy Anson et al.) were happy to brush all allegations against Fifa under the carpet. Our bid chief turned around and branded The Times and BBC as unpatriotic and a lot of the public vented their anger at the press coverage...
We knew Fifa was bent and yet we were happy to overlook it as long as we were in the running. We shamelessly whored ourselves around the Executive committee (sadly, that's what's necessary) and we'd have gladly taken the tournament had it been awarded to us.
If we truly want to get the governing body cleaned up then this is the best scenario that could have eventuated, because it's really accentuated what a joke the entire process is.
I think we're better off out of it - once the disappointment of not getting the World Cup subsided, I remembered that I'm not actually that arsed about International football and that I can go and see the football that really matters to me on a weekly basis.
In terms of organisation/logistics, I can see Russia being one of the worst ever World Cups. As for Qatar. Well. There's no point in tuning in. Utter, utter farce.
It's no good acting incredulous after the event and complaining about corruption/collusion, when for weeks and months prior to the bid, the people at the top of our game (Andy Anson et al.) were happy to brush all allegations against Fifa under the carpet. Our bid chief turned around and branded The Times and BBC as unpatriotic and a lot of the public vented their anger at the press coverage...
We knew Fifa was bent and yet we were happy to overlook it as long as we were in the running. We shamelessly whored ourselves around the Executive committee (sadly, that's what's necessary) and we'd have gladly taken the tournament had it been awarded to us.
If we truly want to get the governing body cleaned up then this is the best scenario that could have eventuated, because it's really accentuated what a joke the entire process is.
I think we're better off out of it - once the disappointment of not getting the World Cup subsided, I remembered that I'm not actually that arsed about International football and that I can go and see the football that really matters to me on a weekly basis.
In terms of organisation/logistics, I can see Russia being one of the worst ever World Cups. As for Qatar. Well. There's no point in tuning in. Utter, utter farce.
good post, thanks for the info
it begs the question why FIFA are choosing places which are nowhere near ready, South Africa, Brazil, Russia and Quatar?
Nice to see the first hand update on Brazil 2014 - obviously been a lot of talk about 2018 and 2022 but they are far in the future in comparison.
Worrying that some stadiums have not yet started but as long as they start next year then there should be enough time.
If not then I am sure England will be top of the list to step in if Brazil do not plan to pull it off.
Worrying that some stadiums have not yet started but as long as they start next year then there should be enough time.
If not then I am sure England will be top of the list to step in if Brazil do not plan to pull it off.
Hypothetically, if England were to step in for Brazil, how would people feel about that? Wouldn't it be a bit of a farce? Criticising Fifa's conduct and then jumping into bed with them as soon as the opportunity to get the tournament arises...
Either we're incredulous about the whole thing, or we're not? We can't choose to moralise just because we lost out, but overlook their corruption in the case of us getting the tourney...
Brazil was the only bidder.
South Africa, Russia and Qatar, probably because they have never had the World Cup and its more "romantic" than to other options.. (Im being slightly generous there)
Thanks for the info Marcelo, i'd be telling a lie if i said i wasn't a bit disappointed as my other half is from Brazil (Londrina) & we're planning on visiting the in-laws that year, kill two birds with the one stone.
I'm still hopeful things will be sorted out over there by then though.
I'm still hopeful things will be sorted out over there by then though.
My dislike in general for the british media usually outweighs that of my dislike of fifa but i think you're being blinded here.
The media's motive is completly inconsequential when considering the information they put forward, it still showed elements of law breaking and corruption within fifa - why should this just be ignored because the papers want to sell their editions? Their info wasnt fictional.
In fact the advantages to the bbc of keepin quiet outweighed the disadvantages (ie host broadcaster of the games, no misguided bbc backlash for harming the bid) but they stood their ground on the basis that they are in a country who has complete freedom of the press and they wouldnt be silenced through fear of ruffling some crooked bastards feathers.
It's a bizzare argument to make when you say corruption should only be outed when it's because of good intention. Actually no it's not bizzare, it's actually retarded.
Well I hope Brazil do manage to pull it off but I would be happy to have it here if not, I was half hoping South Africa failed as well
its not jumping into bed with FIFA to offer to host the World Cup when another country cannot do it. I see the world cup as totally seperate from the corrupt organization called FIFA.
Some of the Brittish media (and some posters) don't understand Sepp Blatter and FIFA!
They see a bunch of corrupt men who take bribe's and don't have a clue about football. They don't understand why so many members voted for Russia and Qatar and they don't see the logic behind the results. There must be bribe's and so on...
Well.. friendship, understanding of each others positions, respect and the old "if you scrub my back I will scrup yours" still works around the world.
Elections is about networking and tactical decisions. Russia and Qatar understood that Blatter was the key to success. As a president you have a lot of power and you can pull the right strings.
To win you need to make friends. England had one ... Maybe it's time for some self examination...
They see a bunch of corrupt men who take bribe's and don't have a clue about football. They don't understand why so many members voted for Russia and Qatar and they don't see the logic behind the results. There must be bribe's and so on...
Well.. friendship, understanding of each others positions, respect and the old "if you scrub my back I will scrup yours" still works around the world.
Elections is about networking and tactical decisions. Russia and Qatar understood that Blatter was the key to success. As a president you have a lot of power and you can pull the right strings.
To win you need to make friends. England had one ... Maybe it's time for some self examination...
Well I hope Brazil do manage to pull it off but I would be happy to have it here if not, I was half hoping South Africa failed as well
Don't get me wrong. I understand that any mad-cap football fan would be delighted to see the tournament staged here.
But we can't all be sat here as things stand, having a massive grumble about the corruption of Fifa, but then say that we're happy to step in and host the World Cup if one of the next hosts can't fulfil their side of the bargain. It feeds into my theory that we'd be happy to brush all the indiscretions under the carpet if we got the tourney. You either want to clean the game up, or you don't... And if you do, I don't see how we can step in now and say that we're happy to host their tournament...
That's just downright hypocritical.
No 7even, i think we do see that. I don't believe the bid neccessarily was 'bought' as it were but you've nailed it that the decision is made by friendships and a you scratch my back, i'll scratch yours attitude. It's this that i find wrong - this should not be how a world cup is decided! It's not a bloody tea party, it's the world cup!
I'm getting sick of being told 'you dont understand how it works, you need to do this etc if you want to win the right to host' - i do understand how it works and i think it's a bloody disgrace that this is how the world game is run by its official governing body.
If i had a bristol accent i think i'd be doin a damned good ian holloway impression at the moment.
I'm getting sick of being told 'you dont understand how it works, you need to do this etc if you want to win the right to host' - i do understand how it works and i think it's a bloody disgrace that this is how the world game is run by its official governing body.
If i had a bristol accent i think i'd be doin a damned good ian holloway impression at the moment.
Its been brought up, but it seems very unlikely. There should be at least 8 stadiums ready (they'll cost 3 times what they would in Japan, but they'll be there). I don't think there's any specific goals Brazil has to meet as far as transportation, so there's no way to feck that up.
They're mostly behind original schedule, but like I said, I do think they'll get done in the end. Its ok for the tournament, its not ok for my taxes.
Should be fun. I guess most World Cups would be fun to attend, and Brazil can be a really nice place to visit if you go to the right places.
And I disagree about the work-effort, Brazilians are quite lazy. São Paulo stands out a bit because somehow they acquired more of a work-ethic. The restof the country mocks them for it.
All in all, there's a slim chance for a major feck-up, but its a chance. (me thinks, of course)
as I said, I dont see the World Cup as belonging to FIFA. It belongs to countries who participate in trying to qualify for the tournament and then trying to win it.
FIFA is merely the corrupt organization that uses the players of these countries as whores to profit from them.
It IS hypocritical though to say we will not host a tournament until FIFA is 'clean' but yet play in their qualifying tournament...going by your argument.
I'm still disappointed England didn't win, but my disappointment is nothing compared to my indignation about Qatar 2022. This has to be the most short-termist move FIFA could have conceivably made. I don't have a crystal ball and nobody can say what the world may be like even as soon as 12 years from now, but they've plonked their showpiece in middle of one of the most unstable regions on earth knowing full well that the technical report (not that they seem to matter) ranked it as the worst from a security viewpoint. Goodness knows how tensions in surrounding countries will have developed by then.
Also, FIFA and Blatter in particular seem blissfully unaware of the declining standard of the international game which they preside over. In comparison to the continuously growing popularity and relevance of the club game - fuelled largely by the Champions League - international football is looking increasingly obsolete; players are much less inclined to play for their countries at all times as they once were, a good number pack it in before they may have done and clubs wield more power than they should over the associations.
Qatar 2022 is not an interesting choice from a football or cultural point of view; it is a country with no football heritage or infrastructure. It is, by all account a pretty souless and uninteresting place unless you have enormous amounts of cash and too much time on your hands. It does not deserve a World Cup. It has not put in the hard yards to make themselves a relevant force in the world game. They are in effect, the City of host nations. I hope they lose every tossing game.
What galls me most is how FIFA can fly so valiantly in the face of their own rhetorical bullshit: "a game for all," "for the good of the game," "football against racism" and other (perhaps more accurate slogans). South Africa, white elephant or not, was truly a new frontier for football, a great cultural experience and it offered a glimpse into what might be a more positive future for that country. It was a choice that showed how far the battle against racism had come in football. FIFA have now plumped for exclusivity and intolerance for 2022 and to some extent 2018.
This overwhelmingly unfriendly (to fans) choice can only serve to push football people away from the World Cup. FIFA will still have all the commercial and tv revenue flowing in, but in alienating fans even more they may well have planted the seeds of their own demise. They need us more than they know. I can only hope that nobody gives as much of a shit then as they might now. They'll still find a way of roping fans into their grotesque 2022 orgy. They'll all be welcome for a month - even if they're poor, Jewish or gay.
Also, FIFA and Blatter in particular seem blissfully unaware of the declining standard of the international game which they preside over. In comparison to the continuously growing popularity and relevance of the club game - fuelled largely by the Champions League - international football is looking increasingly obsolete; players are much less inclined to play for their countries at all times as they once were, a good number pack it in before they may have done and clubs wield more power than they should over the associations.
Qatar 2022 is not an interesting choice from a football or cultural point of view; it is a country with no football heritage or infrastructure. It is, by all account a pretty souless and uninteresting place unless you have enormous amounts of cash and too much time on your hands. It does not deserve a World Cup. It has not put in the hard yards to make themselves a relevant force in the world game. They are in effect, the City of host nations. I hope they lose every tossing game.
What galls me most is how FIFA can fly so valiantly in the face of their own rhetorical bullshit: "a game for all," "for the good of the game," "football against racism" and other (perhaps more accurate slogans). South Africa, white elephant or not, was truly a new frontier for football, a great cultural experience and it offered a glimpse into what might be a more positive future for that country. It was a choice that showed how far the battle against racism had come in football. FIFA have now plumped for exclusivity and intolerance for 2022 and to some extent 2018.
This overwhelmingly unfriendly (to fans) choice can only serve to push football people away from the World Cup. FIFA will still have all the commercial and tv revenue flowing in, but in alienating fans even more they may well have planted the seeds of their own demise. They need us more than they know. I can only hope that nobody gives as much of a shit then as they might now. They'll still find a way of roping fans into their grotesque 2022 orgy. They'll all be welcome for a month - even if they're poor, Jewish or gay.
I have not really been grumbling about the corruption at FIFA, I dont really expect it to change while Blatter is still there - I blame the Brit press and also the FA for the failure of our bid.
So you can count me out of your accusations of hypocrisy!
Of course, which raises the issue of whether we should pull out. We won't of course...
On your first point - they're the organisers and therefore inexorably linked to the tournament. There is no World Cup without an overarching body to implement and oversee it...
Presumably you prefer the press freedoms afforded (or not!) to the Russian and Qatari press? Sorry, but the media have gone and exposed corruption within the game's governing body, and then people criticise them for derailing the bid. feck it - knowing what we now know, why would anyone want to be part of it?
I don't like this elections! I don't like FIFA and I don't trust Blatter.
But if I want to win a FIFA election and host the WC of football I have to change my attitude otherwise I will loose.
Until the elections become more transparent and the result is based upon facts and not friendship you will have to play by the rules of FIFA or not participate.
No i would prefer somewhere in the middle. FIFA is still corrupt and our bid was a massive failure - so was it worth it? Not for me - give me the World Cup any day.
He also said, in a very deliberate manner, "It's days are numbered".
I think the wind is only beginning to blow. The selection of Russia and Qatar may just be the beginning of the end of FIFA...I hope so anyway.
UEFA have the power to totally destroy FIFA as it stands and reform it, if there is a will.
England should take the lead.
I totally disagree that the organizers 'own' the tournament. The cup belongs to all the members, not the organizers.