Messi is better than maradona....

Mentioning Maradonna's achievements at Napoli is a bit unfair. He was older than Messi is now when he signed for them and 26 when he won the Serie A.

his achievments were two scudettos and one uefa cup in 8 years

dont get me wrong, he was a great player, the best i`ve seen by a mile, but there's a huge amount of legend surrounding him and not everything that is said is true

he did made an anonimous team as napoli win a couple of leagues

but is not the first time something like that happened. Or didn't Nottingham Forrest won two Europe Cups? who did it? was it a maradona?

how many times a small club arises and wins something to then go back to oblivion?
 
In the Serie A, Luigi Riva is heavily credited with giving Cagliari their only title ever (15 years before Maradona), Elkjaer the same for Verona (2 years before Maradona).
 
To be fair I'm pretty sure if Messi could put on an Argentina top and play against Peter Reid and Terry Fenwick I think he'd score the odd spectacular goal. Or against some random Belgians too terrified to challenge properly.
 
don't be an idiot

I was referring to people making assumptions about the player without actually ever seeing him or seeing little of him which is clearly happening here

if you think Maradonna would struggle to score in this Barca side then ok, you win. Great argument

if you want to use my observation that many on here have seen little of Maradonna to win the argument then, wow, you've got me there. Messi wins.

were you around during Maradonna's era to make an informed judgement?

Like I said, I have little reason to go for Maradonna over Messi other than his impact on the game. I'd love to go for Messi, a much more likeable persona inasmuch as you can gather from their behaviour

You think he will score a gazillion goals, like it's a given, despite him never being as prolific as Messi in Europe ever.


That is an assumption.

and when you make an assumption you make an ASS out of yourself.

man this foolery is going to make me late for work. Some of you don't help yourself.

Just because you're around during an era doesn't mean you've seen more than others.

That's another ASSumption.

I'm around during the likes of Guthrie's era.....I rarely watch the lad (shout out to scholsey) :D

and in 20 years time I wouldn't lie that I did the way Brwned likes to lie daily about watching Brazlian, Egyptian ,Kenyan etc players
 
To be fair I'm pretty sure if Messi could put on an Argentina top and play against Peter Reid and Terry Fenwick I think he'd score the odd spectacular goal. Or against some random Belgians too terrified to challenge properly.




The defending is attrocious at times but the England players look genuinely tired in that heat.

Or Maradona is too damn good which is most likely the case.

but in 82, the Gentile lad would have definitely been sent off in these times. The ref was 'orrible. A proper gattusto, one mission.

Atleast he booked him once....and Maradona for compalining!

but it comes down to bad reffing imo. For an example would you expect to get a foul at 5:30?

 
You think he will score a gazillion goals, like it's a given, despite him never being as prolific as Messi in Europe ever.

That is an assumption.

and when you make an assumption you make an ASS out of yourself.
mmm.. sometimes you sure do :lol:

Just because you're around during an era doesn't mean you've seen more than others.
Yes it does

There are some of you in this thread who are showing just how childish they are about this.

Yep we are making assumptions about some things and here's one big one. I saw Maradona play in the flesh and on countless occasions live throughout his entire career and can safely say, assume, that I know an awful lot more about the way he played, under which conditions he played, how he coped under pressure in intense situations in the cauldron of immense expectation, than you.

How he played in 90 minutes or more, not how he played in a highlights video on youtube. How he cajoled and encouraged and screamed at his lesser team mates in periods of the game when they looked being overwhlemed, how moments of pure genius created winning situations for his team when there was nothing on at all because often his teammates struggled to cope with his ability let alone the opposition.

I did'nt read about this or get it from a 'clip'. I know an awful lot about this man because I spent months of my life watching and being enthralled by him (even though I feel he's a bit of a scumbag)

I know more about him than you or brwned or any other fker that has not actually watched him and no amount of bullshit from the 'oh so knowledgeable younger generation' is going to change that very fact.

There's an assumption there that you will simply have to get your head around .....and live with.

Have to say when I encounter older fans who bang on about Matthews Finney Shackleton Edwards Mortenson Lofthouse John Charles de Stefano Riva Fontaine Puskas etc etc et al I have only great respect for their views as I know they cant be making it up and have seen these people live and their observations are a bit more valid than mine.

Seems like in todays world that would be asking a bit too much
 
I think if you'd read back Jopub I was supporting your viewpoint about knowing more about Maradona, and Boss knowing a lot less...

and in 20 years time I wouldn't lie that I did the way Brwned likes to lie daily about watching Brazlian, Egyptian ,Kenyan etc players

No, you'll just lie to yourself about how much you actually know about a player when you've watched just a few hours of him overall.

Red Dreams is right though, my constant banging on about it doesn't really help anyone in any way, it only serves to stop people from sharing their views which is a bit pointless really. It's one of my (many) bad traits. I'll try to make sure I don't do it again
 
In the Serie A, Luigi Riva is heavily credited with giving Cagliari their only title ever (15 years before Maradona), Elkjaer the same for Verona (2 years before Maradona).

Elkjær was amazing. An incredibly rich man's Bendter.

But I agree, though it is a tremendous feat, the amount of myth and hyperbole spun into Maradona's title wins with Napoli have been overdone. Took him a little while to adapt to the Serie A as well.
 
If you think I was brown-nosing Jopub then you're clearly wrong, and Jopub will tell you as much. If you think acknowledging your flaws is brown-nosing then it says more about you than me.

If you really feel the need to say something to me just click that PM button.
 
mmm.. sometimes you sure do :lol:

Yes it does

There are some of you in this thread who are showing just how childish they are about this.

Yep we are making assumptions about some things and here's one big one. I saw Maradona play in the flesh and on countless occasions live throughout his entire career and can safely say, assume, that I know an awful lot more about the way he played, under which conditions he played, how he coped under pressure in intense situations in the cauldron of immense expectation, than you.

How he played in 90 minutes or more, not how he played in a highlights video on youtube. How he cajoled and encouraged and screamed at his lesser team mates in periods of the game when they looked being overwhlemed, how moments of pure genius created winning situations for his team when there was nothing on at all because often his teammates struggled to cope with his ability let alone the opposition.

I did'nt read about this or get it from a 'clip'. I know an awful lot about this man because I spent months of my life watching and being enthralled by him (even though I feel he's a bit of a scumbag)

I know more about him than you or brwned or any other fker that has not actually watched him and no amount of bullshit from the 'oh so knowledgeable younger generation' is going to change that very fact.

There's an assumption there that you will simply have to get your head around .....and live with.

Have to say when I encounter older fans who bang on about Matthews Finney Shackleton Edwards Mortenson Lofthouse John Charles de Stefano Riva Fontaine Puskas etc etc et al I have only great respect for their views as I know they cant be making it up and have seen these people live and their observations are a bit more valid than mine.

Seems like in todays world that would be asking a bit too much

Out of interest how much have you seen of Lionel Messi?

and because a fan is older it doesn't mean you'd have to respect their opinion without searching and finding it out for yourself.

When Scholsey is old, does his opinions on Welbeck, Guthrie, Delfonso, become more Valid because he lived through the ages?

What if the person the info is coming from is a numpty?

When you're even older Jopub you're going to bang on about how Van Persie was the top 3 of his generation.

It doesn't make it true.
 
If you think I was brown-nosing Jopub then you're clearly wrong, and Jopub will tell you as much. If you think acknowledging your flaws is brown-nosing then it says more about you than me.

If you really feel the need to say something to me just click that PM button.

Ok Brwned,

before you wouldn't take on anything he says now you're prasing Jopub's knowledge, whatever you get your kicks from on thy knees.
 
I said I disregard Jopub's opinion on anything about anything. I then said that he knows more about Maradona.

Have a think about where you got confused there.
 
I envy you mate.

My dad used to go on about Di Stefano and Garincha. Of course I knew all about Edwards and the lads.

He also always mentioned Finney.

Did you see him mate?

I had the pleasure of seeeing him on a number of occasions and would put him in with Mathews group. The trouble with this ranking game s that invariably it is the mid field and attackers that are listed. I believe that Lev Yashin, Bobby Moore and Franz Beckenbauer should be listed in a top 25 but i'd be surprised if many here would agree
 
Ok Brwned,

before you wouldn't take on anything he says now you're prasing Jopub's knowledge, whatever you get your kicks from on thy knees.

Praising... nice straw man there, Boss.

Does one really have to exaggerate everything to get one's point across?
 
Praising... nice straw man there, Boss.

Does one really have to exaggerate everything to get one's point across?

Well I've done it my whole life.

Anyway here's an interesting article on the issue written before the final.

Messi may be a football legend, but he'll never be loved like Maradona in his home country Argentina

By Alex Kay


Lionel Messi steps out at Wembley on Saturday with his place among football’s legends already cemented.

He is the best player in the world, the man about whom pundits have run out of superlatives and the reason some of the fans paying hundreds of pounds to be at the Champions League final might feel they have a bargain.

But across the Atlantic in Argentina, the excitement is not quite the same. While Messi is lauded by most of the world, his genius compared with Diego Maradona, Argentina doesn’t know how to feel about a boy who has lived in Spain for the past 11 years and never played club football in his homeland.
Simply a legend: Messi at the Nou Camp on Monday ahead of this weekend's European Cup final

Simply a legend: Messi at the Nou Camp on Monday ahead of this weekend's European Cup final

The country struggles to love a player who has never really performed for his country. Sixteen goals in 55 matches for Argentina is a far cry from his 52 goals this season.

For some people, comparing him to Maradona is simply insulting. 'People here have only seen Messi on television,' says Horacio Garcia, a journalist from Argentina’s main sports newspaper Ole. 'That’s the difference. He’s proud of being an Argentine, I’m sure, but it’s as if he is a foreigner.'

Maradona is still the king in Argentina and he is adored across the country. The stadium is named after him at his first club Argentinos Juniors in Buenos Aires and his 115 goals in 167 games for them earned him that.

They worship Maradona at Argentinos, they still sing his name on the terraces and when you ask the fans what the ground was called before he arrived, you are greeted with blank faces.

They feel the same about him across the city at Boca Juniors and in Messi’s home town of Rosario at Newell’s Old Boys, where he also played. You can buy everything Maradona in the Boca club shop and there is a stand named after him at Newell’s, the club where Messi played his youth football.
Much loved: Messi celebrates Barcelona's league triumph

Much loved: Messi celebrates Barcelona's league triumph

'Maradona has always had a bond with the poorest people in this country,' says Eldo Gonzalez, who knows both of them from running a football bar in Rosario. 'He always tells the story of his father working his a*** off so he could play football and only having money for mate (the Argentina national drink — a type of herbal tea), not food.

'And Maradona played his football here first. I remember seeing him for Argentinos Juniors. He took three touches and I was in awe. But we got to know his football and saw him get better and better. Messi appeared already being Messi – he was the finished article. And he’s viewed as half Spanish, half Argentine too.

'What the people loved about Maradona was that he always loved playing for Argentina,' continues Gonzalez passionately. ‘He played with a broken ankle, he fell out with the president of the association and he played anyway, he would play the day before in Europe and fly straight out and play for us the next day.'

Maybe that’s why when you walk down Lavalle, the main shopping street in Buenos Aires where there are more than 30 replica football shops, the owners tell you that they sell as many Maradona Argentina shirts as Messi ones.

Messi’s breakthroughs into professional football could not have been more different from Maradona, 6,700 miles away from his home town - in Barcelona in 2004.

‘It’s a shame that Lionel didn’t start his career at a club here’, says his first coach Oscar Lopez. ‘Maradona did that at Argentinos Juniors and it gave the public a chance to fall in love with his football. But that is becoming more common. We have lots of good players now who make it without even kicking a ball in the Argentinian league.'
Favourite: Maradona celebrates victory for his beloved Boca Juniors over River Plate in 1997

Favourite: Maradona celebrates victory for his beloved Boca Juniors over River Plate in 1997

You would be forgiven for thinking that any lack of emotion towards Messi might be a generational one. After all, if you saw Maradona win the World Cup in 1986, you might be allowed a bit of sceptism when it comes to the new kid on the block.

But the apathy does not stop with the older generation. Right in the heart of Rosario – in what should be the centre of Messi mania – is the Newell’s youth training facility. Messi played on these pitches as a boy and now hundreds of wannabe footballers run around like crazy each week trying to impress their coaches.

But almost no-one is wearing a Messi shirt, just one in fact when we are there. When we ask a group of 30 seven-year-olds if they know who he is, only about 70 per cent say yes. You can’t imagine that happening at any English club with Wayne Rooney and you certainly couldn’t imagine it happening 20 years ago with Maradona.

Messi is lagging behind in the popularity stakes but because of his footballing genius, the comparisons are inevitable. There’s the role just behind the strikers, there’s Messi’s own version of Maradona’s wonder goal against England in 1986 and there is even his very own Hand Of God.

Watch the split screen of Maradona v England and Messi v Getafe and the similarities are staggering. Likewise with his handball he scored in the derby against Espanyol.


'Since he went to Spain he even scored with his hand like Maradona,' says Ernesto Vecchio, Messi’s former coach at Newell’s.

'I think he is has already shown that he is as good as Maradona and I think he will end up being better than him. All he’s missing is the World Cup and then he’ll have everything Maradona had. It’s just that so far the great things he has done haven’t been at the World Cup like Maradona.'

But the problem is that he has not been the same as Maradona in the blue and white stripes of Argentina - there were even calls for him to be dropped ahead of last year’s World Cup after a series of disappointing performances.

'People don’t have the same passion for Messi as they do for Maradona,' admits Vecchio. 'People seem to blame Leo for not being Maradona, mainly because he hasn’t played as well for Argentina as for Barcelona. The difference is that Maradona had players around him who suited him. Leo has that at Barcelona but the Argentina team now is full of players who want to show what they can do as individuals. They don’t care about the team. You can’t just heap all the blame on one player.'

So Messi still has some way to go to convince people back home. But a superb performance at Wembley to put an English side in their place will probably not do any harm on the other side of the Atlantic.

Read more: Lionel Messi isn't loved like Diego Maradona in Argentina | Mail Online
 
There's nothing to be confused about Brwned.

It's cool I know your routine. Whatever makes you happy.


I guess.

Yeah, you really got me there. Exposed me to everyone, put me to shame. I really feel like explaining it (don't I always!) in really simple terms just so you get it, but then you're clearly not going to take anything on board and everyone else can see where you've gone wrong so...I'll not bother.

Back to educating us on Maradona then Boss...
 
Well I've done it my whole life.

Makes sense if the Daily Mail's on your list of acceptable places to rummage for sources to support your viewpoint.

Again, an article that says he has everything Maradona had... you on your youtube binges will know that his passing isn't anywhere as good overall.
 
Yeah, you really got me there. Exposed me to everyone, put me to shame. I really feel like explaining it (don't I always!) in really simple terms just so you get it, but then you're clearly not going to take anything on board and everyone else can see where you've gone wrong so...I'll not bother.

Back to educating us on Maradona then Boss...

I don't need to?

Jopub is educating you, and you're absolutely loving it.

I really don't have any clue why you're still talking to me? Is there anything you actually want from me?
 
Makes sense if the Daily Mail's on your list of acceptable places to rummage for sources to support your viewpoint.

Again, an article that says he has everything Maradona had... you on your youtube binges will know that his passing isn't anywhere as good overall.


:confused:
I thought it was an interesting Article about Messi's reputation in Argentina.

but ok,


you could have read it, it's pretty decent even if it might not be true.
 
and because a fan is older it doesn't mean you'd have to respect their opinion without searching and finding it out for yourself.
Maybe you should do that then

What if the person the info is coming from is a numpty?
mmm yes

When you're even older Jopub you're going to bang on about how Van Persie was the top 3 of his generation.
It doesn't make it true.

Especially if that what not was claimed. If you're referring to my comments about RvP in a recent thread you 'd have read my opinion that when fully fit and enjoying a proper non injured run in the team I rate him in the top 5 strikers currently in the world. I think some, not all, would agree with that

Out of interest how much have you seen of Lionel Messi?

This is the point where "numpty" comes in and if you go on with this you'll end up looking like a complete burk.....if you dont already
 
:confused:
I thought it was an interesting Article about Messi's reputation in Argentina.

but ok,


you could have read it, it's pretty decent even if it might not be true.

I did read it. The bit about his reputation was interesting enough... Was just making a point about your preferred mode of arguing. Wasn't meant to be taken too seriously.

And anything about his reputation isn't interesting to me in the context of defending a viewpoint regarding their respective abilities.
 
I said I disregard Jopub's opinion on anything about anything. I then said that he knows more about Maradona.

Have a think about where you got confused there.

Jopub might know more than Boss about Maradona, but still he believes all the legends that surround him, and he hasn't seen maradona more than i

and as i said before, he won two scudettos with napoli, in 8 years in the serie A and one uefa cup. What made maradona a legend was not his achivement but the way the Napolitanos view those achievement.

the rich northern italy, says that what's south of rome belongs to africa, a huge stigma for the southern italians. So when Maradona lead Napoli to victories against the northern teams they view it as the second coming of jesus.

But, he wasnt the only player in history to ever make an unknown team win a championship

and he did it with players many of wich played for italy in 1986 or in 1990 world cups, so he wasn't playing alone

meanwhile, Messi with 23, with better players and in a bigger team, already won 3 or 4 ligas, 3 CL and i don't know how many copas del rey
 
If I want to learn anything about Maradona I read what you've written Marcos, no doubt about that.
 
Jopub might know more than Boss about Maradona, but still he believes all the legends that surround him, and he hasn't seen maradona more than i

and as i said before, he won two scudettos with napoli, in 8 years in the serie A and one uefa cup. What made maradona a legend was not his achivement but the way the Napolitanos view those achievement.

the rich northern italy, says that what's south of rome belongs to africa, a huge stigma for the southern italians. So when Maradona lead Napoli to victories against the northern teams they view it as the second coming of jesus.

But, he wasnt the only player in history to ever make an unknown team win a championship

and he did it with players many of wich played for italy in 1986 or in 1990 world cups, so he wasn't playing alone

meanwhile, Messi with 23, with better players and in a bigger team, already won 3 or 4 ligas, 3 CL and i don't know how many copas del rey

only 1. pfffft.
 
Jopub might know more than Boss about Maradona, but still he believes all the legends that surround him, and he hasn't seen maradona more than i

What legends ? exactly what ?

And I've seen Maradona close up in the flesh and enough times countless over the full 90 minutes to know exactly what kind of a player he was. I dont need a youtube clip of him not scoring to pull his level down a peg or two either - fsakes

You're attempts to denegrate his place as one of the three greatest players ever to have kicked a ball in the modern era are a bit silly when confronted with all the evidence
 
That and I wouldn't say Messi was instrumental in winning the ECL in 06. He wasn't even on the bench in the final, so no winner's medal for him.

2 CLs, then.
 
messi was out with injury or else he would've made the squad. he played well in the knockout stages.

I know that, but he wasn't really a stand-out player for them, as I recall.

At any rate, he doesn't have 3 CL winner's medals... They don't give out extras for that 'un, do they now?

Edit: I lied... it seems he received one anyway. I thought that was partially why a player would be so gutted for not getting a spot in the first team or on the bench. Oh well, learned something :)
 
What legends ? exactly what ?

And I've seen Maradona close up in the flesh and enough times countless over the full 90 minutes to know exactly what kind of a player he was. I dont need a youtube clip of him not scoring to pull his level down a peg or two either - fsakes

You're attempts to denegrate his place as one of the three greatest players ever to have kicked a ball in the modern era are a bit silly when confronted with all the evidence

here:

That's why he HAS to do better with the national side to get anywhere near Maradona. They are certainly below Barcas league and so he needs to step up big time to live with Maradona.

He's not a one man show when he plays for Argentina - that's obvious, but the greatest players can pull up a very good side into something special and that is what he has not yet done. In Italy 90 Maradona nearly pullled off the most incredible feat in getting Argentina to the final. Apart from him they were ordinary, really ordinary and he nearly won that trophy for them. He did similarly at Napoli. Football is a team effort and there's no such thing as the one man team but he's the nearest you'll ever see to it at a professional level
 

I notice a difference here

You maybe need to make it clear that you thinking Maradona had little to do with Argentina's unlikely but successful campaign in Italia 90 is your opinion.

I have mine on it too though

I'd hazard that 95% of football fans, pundits players managers from all over the world since 1990 and especially those that actually watched it live think that Maradona's mercurial talent lifted up a mediocre Argentina side to almost win the trophy and that without it they'd have fared much worse

I think if you had watched those games in that tournament there could only be one conclusion but accept of course you personally might see it different

In respect of the Maradona / Messi comparison that world cup alone gives most football followers the impression that Messi needs to do a lot more in the international shirt to be considered on the same level. Winning the world cup is not a requirement ( look at George Best) but he certainly needs to make a serious impact, which the vast majority feel he has conspicuously lacked to now
 
It's such a strange one, even Maradona himself talked at length in his book about the players in the 86 side, and the players he played with at Napoli (who he claimed were signed on his request).

Yet the general legend states that these teams were average, bog standard, wouldnt have been considered even half decent if not for Maradona. Whilst it's a fine fantasy and for legends purposes works a treat it's probably quite far from the truth.

Also there are actually those who shared the pitch with Maradona, even in 86 who say Messi is the better player. At least at this stage in his career.

I don't know, i just wont rule out Messi at this premature stage, the lad is 23, to write off a player with his talent when comparing him to a legend (who peaked at 26, ROnaldos age now) is premature and foolhardy.
 
All I am comparing is maradona's play against united, vs. messi's play against united.

And there is only one winner in this, and it isn't the cokehead.

I think he only played against us once or twice at most. And we beat them handily at OT.

I grew up watching Maradona and I have to say I can't make my mind up on the who is better debate. Maradona as rightly pointed out turned a perennial no hoper into a European force, albeit briefly. Messi has some great players around him and will never likely encounter that kind of challenge.

Messi is brilliant in today's game. Maradona was brilliant in yesterday's less disciplined, less professonal game.

On pure skill, I would say Maradona shades it. But on effectiveness perhaps Messi is the one. 50 goals in a season says it all really.
 
It's such a strange one, even Maradona himself talked at length in his book about the players in the 86 side, and the players he played with at Napoli (who he claimed were signed on his request).

Yet the general legend states that these teams were average, bog standard, wouldnt have been considered even half decent if not for Maradona. Whilst it's a fine fantasy and for legends purposes works a treat it's probably quite far from the truth.

Also there are actually those who shared the pitch with Maradona, even in 86 who say Messi is the better player. At least at this stage in his career.

I don't know, i just wont rule out Messi at this premature stage, the lad is 23, to write off a player with his talent when comparing him to a legend (who peaked at 26, ROnaldos age now) is premature and foolhardy.

Has ANYBODY in this thread ever said that they think there's no chance that Messi might become the greatest ever? What people have dismissed has been the notion that he's already on par with, or has surpassed Maradona.
 
I notice a difference here

You maybe need to make it clear that you thinking Maradona had little to do with Argentina's unlikely but successful campaign in Italia 90 is your opinion.

I have mine on it too though

I'd hazard that 95% of football fans, pundits players managers from all over the world since 1990 and especially those that actually watched it live think that Maradona's mercurial talent lifted up a mediocre Argentina side to almost win the trophy and that without it they'd have fared much worse

I think if you had watched those games in that tournament there could only be one conclusion but accept of course you personally might see it different

In respect of the Maradona / Messi comparison that world cup alone gives most football followers the impression that Messi needs to do a lot more in the international shirt to be considered on the same level. Winning the world cup is not a requirement ( look at George Best) but he certainly needs to make a serious impact, which the vast majority feel he has conspicuously lacked to now

during the 1990 world cup we scored 5 goals in open play, 5, and that put us in the final game

what we did is concede only 4 goals, against cameroon, romania, italy and germany

so who did a great job was the defense and our goalie, whom during the shoot outs, stopped a lot of penalty kicks

to say that maradona was the one that put us in the final game is wrong

as to say that he played alone,

as to say he did something extraordinary for napoli

as to say he played alone during the 1986 world cup

that doesnt mean that he wasn't one of the best players ever, along with pele -some would add Di Stefano and Best in that list-

Pele won a lot of things during his career, with brazil and Santos, and to say that he didnt win them all by himself is not saying that he wasn't an extraordinary player

the same aplies to maradona, he was the best player of argentina in 1986, he was the best player in napoli during his 8 years there, but he wasn't the only good player, he was well surrounded

he wast our best player in 1990 -not because he played badly but because he was injured- our best players were giusti, olarticoechea, cannigia and goicoechea

and all i said about maradona is part of the legend that you believe
 
If you compare two similarly talented players of different eras in isolation, generally the more modern footballer is going to be "better" because of constant improvement in tactics, fitness, training methods etc.

Instead you need to compare how influential and effective they are for their teams at the highest level. For this reason I don't see the world cup as being particularly relevant anymore as the standard is so much lower than the CL. But because Messi plays in the best team in the world, it is always going to be used to devalue his ability compared to the other footballing greats, wrongly IMO.