Thank you, exactly what I was after.
Messi is better than maradona....
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Thank you, exactly what I was after.
Yeah Rooney said it's one of the toughest places to play.
Sure, but you're not doing your arguments any favours by the way you're presenting your rebuttals.
that's the team from 1986 and again you are distorting everything -no surprise there-.
i said that it's stupid to say that without maradona and with messi argentina would have leave the world cup in the group stages, and i explained you why
i also said that is stupid to say that maradona won the world cup surrounded by mediocre players, and i explained you why
you keep arseing around and saying nothing
i agree, is difficult to play against stoke in winter, but that doesn't mean that messi, who will never play that game, will never be regarded as one of the best players
and that, assuming he never played against a fisical team in cold weather
This Stoke argument is just us little Englanders trying to salvage a bit of pride after witnessing one of the most conclusive demonstrations of how backward we and our football are.
If all we've got left is idolizing hoofball thugs as our great protectors then things really are sad.
That is all.
If all we've got left is idolizing hoofball thugs as our great protectors then things really are sad.
That is all.
Is this Manchester United you're talking about? Backward is how our football is it?
If that's how you describe the football philosophy of one of the THE dominant forces in football over the last two decades, then seriously go search for some sense.
I think if Messi went against Stoke delap's head would be hanging out the back of Shawcross' Arse when he runs rings around them.
but then again I actually can't believe we're having this argument.
I wonder if Andy Gray egged Wayne to agree with his viewpoint.
because calling somebody the best player ever and brining up Stoke is paradoxical.
but then again I actually can't believe we're having this argument.
I wonder if Andy Gray egged Wayne to agree with his viewpoint.
because calling somebody the best player ever and brining up Stoke is paradoxical.
Backward? That's nonsense... or are there a plethora of sides on the continent that could school United the way they did?
We got schooled by Real in 2003 (that hurt!). They got schooled by Barca recently. Shit happens. We've schooled countless teams over the years. Happens to every club. People need to get a grip with their over the top criticism.
the 2003 schooling only reminds me of how much I disliked Barthez.
Yeah, the Figo 'effort' and the first Ronaldo goal. Still they were comprehensively better than us. Even in the second leg when Beckham came on and scored 2 (I think) you always felt they could score if they felt like.
That Stoke point is embarassing. Why would people care what Messi would do against Stoke? If he can be unstopple against the best defence in the world why would he struggle against Stoke?
Our first win in an away game last season was exactly against Stoke, the game wasn't more difficult than any other away game.
Our first win in an away game last season was exactly against Stoke, the game wasn't more difficult than any other away game.
Didn't Maradona have hepatitis at Barcelona? Once Messi has come back from a broken leg and a sexually transmitted infection to win a world cup we'll start talking 
On a serious note, Messi's goal tally for Argentina is just a little bit worse than Maradona's, playing in this Barcelona team massively inflates your goal tally because as a unit they're that good. Messi is the second best player I've ever seen, Maradona is the best, I doubted I'd ever see another player come close to him, never mind another Argentine who doesn't know he has a right foot. Maradona just has more to his game to edge it for me.
Best way of looking at it is taking all Messi's best qualities and Zidanes and making them one player, you get an idea of where Maradona was.
On a serious note, Messi's goal tally for Argentina is just a little bit worse than Maradona's, playing in this Barcelona team massively inflates your goal tally because as a unit they're that good. Messi is the second best player I've ever seen, Maradona is the best, I doubted I'd ever see another player come close to him, never mind another Argentine who doesn't know he has a right foot. Maradona just has more to his game to edge it for me.
Best way of looking at it is taking all Messi's best qualities and Zidanes and making them one player, you get an idea of where Maradona was.
To be frank there's little to present
The only people I have ever heard attempt to make a case that Argentina would have done well in that tournament without Maradona are in this thread.
Ever.
If you check out reports of the tournament and look into Maradona's career you'll find that 98% of the media / journalists / footballer writing of all kinds think Maradona pulled them through that tournament and without him they 'd have been anonymous. Wether he was injured ( although he still played) or played at his very very best he still did enough to make a huge difference
I've yet to see an explanation that says otherwise (until this thread).
That being the case what do you want me to present? You can find descriptions about Maradona the world over and they all tend to agree with what I am saying here about this part of his career.
In respect of abuse I tend to respond to it not propogate it so .......
The point is (and Rooney's too) is that in a one off cup game sure he'd be up for it but maybe Stoke and Birmingham and Wigan away in winter is maybe just not his cup of tea week after week
Fair point imo .........a lot of very good players go into hiding in those kind of fixtures
I don't know, Marcos, but Rooney said he finds it tough, which probably means from a physical perspective. I actually happen to think Barca'd win our league at a canter with Messi and co runnning rings around Stoke even in 3ft of snow. Our league's pretty much non contact and all....it's clearly not as bad as it used to be. And he'll go down as one of the all time greats, it's not even debatable - I'd just love to see him play in different surroundings, who knows? maybe he'll consider a move to pastures new in a few seasons? It's a shame we weren't aware of this 9 year old's potential.... I'm hoping you start sending scouting reports to Fergie. I was going to suggest that you should hang around school playgrounds and parks...but realised it wasn't such a great idea.
well, case closed, i have better things to do than trying to explain to an idiot something as simple as 2+2 when he clearly is not going to get it
cheers jopub
and for the rest, read the thread, before you trust on what jopub is trying to make you believe, those where not my points at all
cheers jopub
and for the rest, read the thread, before you trust on what jopub is trying to make you believe, those where not my points at all
whatever spoons, Jopub is presenting that as a fact, and we clearly don't know what its going to happen,
seriously, he's just touching himself thinking in the way that a third rate team will cope with the best player in the world,
but lets be honest is nothing more than that, an irrational way to pretend that the english football pride will be safe with exponents as stoke, when Manchester United's three Champion League finals in four years are more than enough
Does that include Messi's goalscoring/finishing? It seems everyone's agreed on the fact Maradona was the better playmaker but there's definitely not the same consensus on who's the better goalscorer.
His finishing probably isn't as clinical as Messi's, but then he never really had Messi's consistent service so it's hard to say. A good yardstick is their international records, where there is very little to chose between.
How'd you find him against Juve, Brwned? Or did you skip your viewing last night?
I think we all would, I know I'd love him to come here especially!
but he's too loyal, and is probably going to retire at Barca, they pretty much saved him from obscurity.
If only he was offered to us all those years ago.
It's not a guarantee he would have turned out the same player. He got integrated into the Barca system from a fairly young age, and while his natural talent stands out like a shining beacon, the Barca elements to his game are very obvious as well. Taking those traits away could have resulted in a different player. Though saying that, coming to England could have made him stronger in different ways.
Went out last night, only just watched it there. Wasn't involved in either of the first two goals - lovely link-up from Silenzi and Careca in each - nor the 4th but he cut the defence apart in the third. His passing's a joy to watch. His dribbling's obviously not as prominent after the injury. Got kicked all over the place, one tackle knee high, studs up was quite tasty.
Havent been in this thread in a few days but im pretty sure the Stoke thing started out as a pisstake or in jest at best. Not a fecking serious point, but it seems to have mushroomed into a beast.
fecking get a grip FFS.
fecking get a grip FFS.
The Stoke thing has turned into some sort of legendary parody on here, now. 
I chuckle everytime anyone even mentions the team in the media because of this site.
I chuckle everytime anyone even mentions the team in the media because of this site.
The thing with the Stoke thing is that it is entirely metaphorical, yet people seem to take it very literally, it quite clearly isn't a real sentiment.
the stoke thing hasnt been an issue for a long while now
at least not by me
at least not by me
There's a fair point to the Stoke thing, in that it'd be nice to see Messi and Barcelona tested against a different type of opposition to that they face in their domestic league currently. Stoke is a tough place to go, not many teams get regular wins there, including us
Where it's taken too far is that it's used as a bizarre stick to beat them with, as if they're not up to the task, which seems odd, when surely they're the most likely to victor there, given they're a better side than anyone else!
Where it's taken too far is that it's used as a bizarre stick to beat them with, as if they're not up to the task, which seems odd, when surely they're the most likely to victor there, given they're a better side than anyone else!
actually stoke fans must be loving this.
Stoke are the be all and end all of English football. The yard stick, the stopping point. They are the REAL test of a player, the REAL test of a teams metal. Not United, Chelsea, Arsenal but Stoke City.
It's actually hilarious!
I'm pretty sure the whole "stoke on a winters rainy night" thing was coined by none other than arsebandit Andy Gray. Which first and foremost means it's likely to be bull shit since he always was a shite pundit.
Stoke are the be all and end all of English football. The yard stick, the stopping point. They are the REAL test of a player, the REAL test of a teams metal. Not United, Chelsea, Arsenal but Stoke City.
It's actually hilarious!
I'm pretty sure the whole "stoke on a winters rainy night" thing was coined by none other than arsebandit Andy Gray. Which first and foremost means it's likely to be bull shit since he always was a shite pundit.
Yeah, his passing makes me feel like I'm watching Scholes... You start spotting spaces and hoping that he sees them too, and more often than not, away the ball goes... And every now and again you go "feck me, I hadn't dreamt of that!" as he spots and opportunity you didn't even know was there.
Messi's a long way from having that bit down... but I'd say he's a better finisher, definitely.
not quite 10 jobbers and 1 legend then?
Very Scholesyesque, effortlessly picking out a player no matter where he was with a huge variety of ways to do so. Messi's a very talented creative passer but I've not seen him show the ability to control a game with his passing.
Comparisons to Fulham seemed a bit off on first viewing it must be said, but who knows how far his influence stretched in terms of leadership and confidence, they might've looked like different players without him.
I've often got the impression Messi could do the job if required, though I can't ever remember him being played in a position or team in recent times whereby he's needed to. Though he drops deep, he's far more advanced at the moment, and I'm not convinced he could do what he does now whilst also controlling games with his passing. I mean 50 odd goals whilst doing that is so incredible a notion that it's almost a complete contradiction.
He probably has it in his locker, but not to the level of, say, Xavi. No shame there.
He probably has it in his locker, but not to the level of, say, Xavi. No shame there.
Can remember watching football since about 1974.
Maradona for me is the best i've seen.
Watching him play with no shin pads, coked up to the eye ball, on bumpy as feck pitches with the other teams delibrately trying to injure him without little protection from the referee was a site to behold.
Let's no forget the 80's was a highly defensive era where games did not flow like they do today. Much of the game was wasted in back passing. Maradona was the shinning light of the era.
He was as mad a cut snake too. He'd often ninja kick opponents in the chest and head.
You couldn't help but love him in some way even if you hated him.
Maradona for me is the best i've seen.
Watching him play with no shin pads, coked up to the eye ball, on bumpy as feck pitches with the other teams delibrately trying to injure him without little protection from the referee was a site to behold.
Let's no forget the 80's was a highly defensive era where games did not flow like they do today. Much of the game was wasted in back passing. Maradona was the shinning light of the era.
He was as mad a cut snake too. He'd often ninja kick opponents in the chest and head.
You couldn't help but love him in some way even if you hated him.
This thread needs a Maradona passing compilation:
Messi's vision is a vastly underrated part of his game. I'd say his vision is right up there with the best in that Barca side, and his passing is both very creative and penetrative at the same time. When his legs start going, I could see him becoming a pure playmaking CM..he's certainly intelligent enough to play there.
I think Messi could do as Giggs has (to greater effect of course) - creative playmaker from deep, penetrative and direct passer - but there's a big difference between being able to do that and do what Scholes does.