I love this post from last year.
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/messi-better-than-maradona-331111/#post9848069
Messi is better than maradona....
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I love this post from last year.
https://www.redcafe.net/f7/messi-better-than-maradona-331111/#post9848069
Random question that always had me wondering.. Why is pele considered by probably most of the world as he best player ever, but then when you ask people who actually follow football most of the time they say maradona? Is it a case of his stats simply putting him ahead in the eyes of casual footy fans? Here in Canada you'd be surprised at how many people have never heard of maradona but it's pretty much accepted that pele is the best ever.
Christ, this pointless debate has had nearly 35,000 views. Diametrically opposed posters will never agree on things like this, eg Pele v Maradonna, yet several get hot under the collar trying
Who would you have in your team, Lampard from 2005 or Iniesta from 2009? Both mercurial at their best.
Lampard? Art thou serious?
Partly it is the positioning and playmaking role, which Messi isn't required to perform at Barca. Partly it is the charisma. The fact is, Maradona time and again made ordinary players around him look like world beaters. It didn't require them raising their game, he rose it for them.
No idea if Messi can develop it, but when Argentina have tasked him with that job/onus it has failed.
Jaysus, I expected Iniesta to be the common answer (very reasonable), yet Lampard was no mug, he featured in one of Europe's best teams, in their midfield for a few years. It's really not unreasonable.
Lampard was a fantastic player in his prime no doubt but Iniesta is just on a whole different level. I don't think anyone is saying Lampard was shite or anything.
To return to the subject. Messi is the most important part of a fantastic side. Maradona was the side (Napoli).
I'd like to see Messi perform at the same level while coping with Maradonna's party lifestyle and coke habit
Lampard, very good as he was at his best, was never even in Iniesta's league. Iniesta is one of the best players of his generation, Lampard one of the many good ones.
Thats no slight on Lampard as very few footballer are as good as Iniesta.
Ferrara, Careca, Alemao, Di Napoli, Galli, Carnevale and Crippa were not 'nothing' players, in fairness. Ferrara was a rock in that Juve defence, Careca was named the best player in Brazil in '86, Di Napoli was a regular for Italy, Galli won plenty of titles with Milan, Crippa won a Uefa Cup with Parma as a crucial cog...it's only really Carnevale who didn't achieve any tangible success elsewhere but he was clearly a good player.
Its their performance on the pitch that matters when you're comparing them. The fact that maradona did drugs speaks volumes about his professionalism, not something Messi has to do too to be considered as good.
Okay so first off this argument is getting so old.
Maradona won 4 titles in 7 years with Napoli and just because he didn't play in a team packed with world class players, like Messi does these days, doesn't mean they were all shit expect him.
Of course he was the stand out player for Napoli by quite a margin but his stats suggest he contributed less to Napoli then Messi does to Barca, even though stats never tell the whole story you but people need to stop acting like Maradona won everything on his own while Messi is just a bystander at Barca.
Verona won the same thing Napoli won without Maradona a couple of years earlier. The extra step for Napoli was Europe, and Maradona couldn't lift his club to compete on that level.
But how do we know that Messi hasnt raised Barca to a new level as they clearly became a more complete team when he started making waves into the team? Surely calling Maradona a one man team is a complete myth because in reality it takes a good 11 to make it in football.
There's a certain romanticism to the idea that Maradona (or Best) could be that good despite not having every aspect of his life tailored according to his career. That's the issue with relying on stats, achievements and whatever else to 'objectively' judge who was the best player...why would you want to take the subjectivity out of it? Why would you want to take the romanticism out of it? There's plenty of people that think Best was the best player to play the game, many think the same of Cruyff, or Di Stefano, or even more recently you have people saying that about Zidane. They can't match Pelé's achievements but that doesn't matter, you don't decide who the best player is based on achievements or stats. Perhaps Messi and Ronaldo's absurd goal totals have started to change that but I'd hope not. There was no question Ronaldinho was the best player in the world despite not matching Henry's stats, for example, despite them playing in largely the same areas. All you had to do was watch Ronaldinho to see he was doing things no-one else could. People judge who the best player is with their own eyes and nothing else, that's the way football's always been.
You misunderstood me Brwned. I am the last person to judge players by stats alone. Though a good indicator, i've always believed that they hardly tell the full story. Which is why Ronaldinho remains the best player i've watched, irrespective of how many assists or goals messi and ronaldo stack up. He could do things with a football i've never seen anyone do.
Having never watched maradona live, i dont know how good he was. I've seen numerous clips and read/heard about him a lot but i comment only on those i've seen myself. What i was saying was that him doing drugs while Messi maintains a professional lifestyle doesnt mean Messi has to prove himself capable of doing as well had he been taking drugs too. How they play on the pitch is how i judge players. whether one had a great sleep last night while the other was busy doing coke is irrelevant to me simply because its not the first guy's fault that the one we're comparing him to does things a professional footballer shouldnt.
In the end, its performances on the pitch that matters. Not stats nor what you do off the pitch while producing those performances.
I just took it off on a tangent really, I wasn't aiming it at you I was just following on from your first point. I do think the fact Best could stand head and shoulders above Bobby and Denis even while he was half-cut does add a certain magic to it. If he could be that good as he was, how good would he have been with a really professional attitude?
Yes, but maybe that's because he was so focused on getting his own TV show?
Better in all probability.
But when comparing 2 equally good footballers, i wouldnt rate the 2nd higher just because he did coke while the first wouldnt. I get the romanticism involved in it, just not something i'd consider when comparing them. At the end of the day, if they're performing equally as footballers on the pitch, i'd consider them just that, equals.
Messi will be rated as highly as Maradonna, if not greater when he retires, IMHO
Indeed, it was a decent side, as was Argentina 86. Devilish's point comes across frequently though and rubs people the wrong way. It's not he was a one-man team, but he made the team play at a completely different level. He didn't turn rocks into gold, but rough diamonds would be polished and end up shining brightly, while zirconia would not look out of place.
I think the best way to explain Maradona's impact on a team was Butragueño's: "if he played for any of the teams that reached the second round in Mexico '86, that side would have won it". As great a player as Messi is, I don't think the same could be said of him.
All very logical and rational but they just wouldn't perform equally on the pitch. The irreverence and panache translates to the on-pitch persona, the performance, how they go about things, what reactions they get from the rival players...
It's not just "romance", it's a different attitude altogether. Not saying it's a "good" attitude, sometimes it can work for the better, sometimes for the worse, but it has an impact of its own.
Some that are mentioning Ronaldinho being the best ever, I think that they are missing 'the best' with 'the most exciting'.
Perhaps, but then what is 'best'? It seems such a vague and unsatisfactory term when describing a footballer.
We need clearer definition really. But i think Ronaldinho is being put in there because his technical ability, tricks, skills etc are easily as good as anyone's.
Being so supremely talented as Ronaldinho was, gives him a shout at least. Not many can even claim to have anywhere near his control and skill, he was the most exciting because he was so talented.
Maradonna any day of the week!
I see your point but i wouldnt know as i've never seen Maradona play live. Same with Best. Clips dont tell half the story so i dont base my judgements on those. The only truly wonderful player i've seen that didnt behave professionally was Ronaldinho and we all know how that turned out. In today's times, i dont think one can be a Best or a Maradona and still be at the top for too long.
Maldini.
And rightly so. I've mentioned it before, but watching Maradona live exposed you to an entirely different dimension of what a player he was.
When Messi gets the ball you expect some tricks, maybe this or that, maybe he will do something amazing every now and then... With Maradona over time you just didn't expect, you sat and watched because more often than not he came up with something you couldn't foresee at all.
Clips in that sense don't do him enough justice, the jarring thing was being up there in the stands, having full view of the pitch, the different players and where they were positioned, what runs were on... And he would go and pick a course of action which just wasn't there to your humble naked eye. The initial reaction would be "WTF?" followed by "Ah! Of course..." about a second later when it all became clear.
I mean, the guy was down there at pitch level, under pressure from a marker or three, and could see an option you couldn't from the comfort of your seat and panoramic view.
He was just ridiculous.
Why are people still writing Maradona as "Maradonna"? Theres one 'n'! Just one! /rant
This debate will never reach an end. Ive never seen Maradona in a full match, just clips on youtube and other sites, and its clear that he was an exceptional player. That people who have seen both still rate him higher than Messi speaks volumes to me really. Most of the posters in the Messi corner doesnt seem to have seen both and base their argument on stats alone, which doesnt really work when discussing "best individual player", as Brwned has pointed out more eloquently than I ever could.
This debate will never reach an end. Ive never seen Maradona in a full match, just clips on youtube and other sites, and its clear that he was an exceptional player. That people who have seen both still rate him higher than Messi speaks volumes to me really. Most of the posters in the Messi corner doesnt seem to have seen both and base their argument on stats alone, which doesnt really work when discussing "best individual player", as Brwned has pointed out more eloquently than I ever could.
And I missed one point above. He could see what no one could see from the stands, but at the same time got defences into such a state of panic they stopped seeing even the simplest things.
After battering Argentina for 80mins, Brazil crash out of the WC to the goal below. You may have seen it before, but the funny thing is Pele had spent all game commenting on how rubbish Maradona had been, "worst player on the pitch" he said time and again (even at the end he keeps banging on about how poor he had been "except for the goal incident").
After the goal the pundit insists they should have chopped him down before the pass... Then he goes on a run at 2:30, he is chopped down and Brazil are 1-0 down with ten men. You couldn't make it up
Going back to the being surrounded by WC players argument... Good as Caniggia was, any average striker would have scored that goal. It was Maradona that made it simple for you, whether you were world class or just decent.
After battering Argentina for 80mins, Brazil crash out of the WC to the goal below. You may have seen it before, but the funny thing is Pele had spent all game commenting on how rubbish Maradona had been, "worst player on the pitch" he said time and again (even at the end he keeps banging on about how poor he had been "except for the goal incident").
After the goal the pundit insists they should have chopped him down before the pass... Then he goes on a run at 2:30, he is chopped down and Brazil are 1-0 down with ten men. You couldn't make it up
Going back to the being surrounded by WC players argument... Good as Caniggia was, any average striker would have scored that goal. It was Maradona that made it simple for you, whether you were world class or just decent.
I dont see whats wrong with equating the two. Ronaldinho in his prime was one of the most skillful and exciting players ever. Just because he wasnt as efficient as Messi is doesnt automatically mean that arguing that he was the best is outlandish. Messi is exceptionally talented and one of the best players ever, but he gets so many goals because he is insanely efficient and keeps going like clockwork every single match, thus granting him those freakish stats.
What Messi does in isolated events is more often than not not that spectacular. Its a burst of speed to one side and a finish in the corner, or controlling the ball and then chipping the keeper, things many other players could do. What makes Messi so special is how consistent he is in doing these things. What other players can very feasibly do, yet only do a few times a season, Messi does every match, every week, the entire season. Thats why he is so impressive - his consistency at a very high level.
Still, the things Ronaldinho did at times surpass what Messi does in terms of individual brilliance in isolated events. Some people value those moments of sheer genious higher than just being a goal scoring and assisting machine. This is the same argument people use to show why Messi is better than Ronaldo even in periods where Ronaldo is "out-'stats'ing" Messi. You cant have the best of both worlds - both arguing that Messi is better than Ronaldo even when Ronaldo scores more and saying its absurd to argue that Ronaldinho at his best was better than Messi.
For me I'd say that Ronaldinho at his best is the best I have ever seen, but he wasnt as efficient as Messi and more importantly he wasnt at that very top level for any long extended period of time, so I have no problem admitting that Ronaldinho probably never will be regarded in the bracket of Maradona, Pele, Di Stefano, Eusebio, Fat Ronaldo, Zidane (and some more Ive missed) and in the future undoubtedly Messi and Ronaldo as well. Still, Ronaldinho is the only player that I found so exciting to watch that I streamed matches just to watch him play even when I had no other interest in the match. I dont do that with Messi for all his brilliance.
Nailed it.
Died a little inside simply having to read that question.
You see? This is the hyperbole that gets me mad.