Berbatov | Fulham player

Scoreboard Red said:
IN Europe or from the bench?

Sorry mate, no he hasn't. If we were pmaying Wolves or Stoke, I'd be pleased for him to play but not against Barca.
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I'd say the exact same about Owen. In a game where we creating next to nothing in the final third, he wasn't likely to make any impact at all. Hence why he wasn't brought on. The point being that this scenario was entirely predictable.

I've said this in response to you above, but you have an annoying habit of not replying to points when they don't suit you.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
I'd say the exact same about Owen. In a game where we creating next to nothing in the final third, he wasn't likely to make any impact at all. Hence why he wasn't brought on. The point being that this scenario was entirely predictable.

I've said this in response to you above, but you have an annoying habit of not replying to points when they don't suit you.
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Hindsight is marvelous, isn't it mate? I dint think anyone, even Barca, expected it to be as easy as that, Owen was sub if required, bringing him on at 3-1 down when Barca are stil running rings round us would have been daft, they would have scored a couple more!
 
Scoreboard Red said:
I'm not talking about his twenty goals Brophs, I'm talking about you lot saying he'd come on and make a difference even though he has only scored once from a sub appearance in those twenty goals as well as a poor record against big teams and certainly in Europe.

I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm talking sense it's just I think you find it hard to listen to logic as you're disappointed he didn't play and may actually leave the club. I'm disappointed he might leave but I've said for a VERY long time I don't think he was a right fit and in all honesty, I think I've had a very large justification...
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You seem to think Berbatov can only score goals to influence games. His best attributes are in his hold up play, and ability to keep possession and bring others into the game. Whether he could have changed the game with goals from himself is one thing, I can see the logic in a comparison between him and Owen for that, as a substitution. But, Berbatov's real contribution would have been in providing a link between midfield and attack, feeding others in and around him, as well as retaining the ball, something we struggled with.

I thought he should have been on from the start, if we weren't looking to pack out the midfield and just have one upfront (which would have obviously been Rooney).
 
Not point selling him for just a small sum when his value is worth much more to the team...

Unless he wants to leave but he is saying otherwise though.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Hindsight is marvelous, isn't it mate? I dint think anyone, even Barca, expected it to be as easy as that, Owen was sub if required, bringing him on at 3-1 down when Barca are stil running rings round us would have been daft, they would have scored a couple more!
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Exactly, so bring on someone for Hernandez, who can retain possession as well as strengthening our attack. It wouldn't have made it a rout for Barcelona in anyway if we were swapped Hernandez for Berbatov, we would be removing a passenger from the game, and replacing him with someone who would start deeper, be more influenced in the game, and bring the players around him into play.
 
Hectic said:
You seem to think Berbatov can only score goals to influence games. His best attributes are in his hold up play, and ability to keep possession and bring others into the game. Whether he could have changed the game with goals from himself is one thing, I can see the logic in a comparison between him and Owen for that, as a substitution. But, Berbatov's real contribution would have been in providing a link between midfield and attack, feeding others in and around him, as well as retaining the ball, something we struggled with.

I thought he should have been on from the start, if we weren't looking to pack out the midfield and just have one upfront (which would have obviously been Rooney).
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Thats hindsight talking. I don't think it would have made any difference.
 
If we had won, pretty much 'everything in the garden' would be lovely; given that we lost, introspection is king...and some of this introspection is unnecessary. Fools and media acolytes now consider Barcelona to be the greatest team of all-time - and if that truly is the case, there was little we could do at Wembley - yet they've forgotten about Sir Alex's passion for a challenge, and his habit of dismissing challengers given a little time.

There's no need for all this in-fighting about certain players, and perspective is desperately needed; plus, some faith in the manager to get things right.
 
Hectic said:
Exactly, so bring on someone for Hernandez, who can retain possession as well as strengthening our attack. It wouldn't have made it a rout for Barcelona in anyway if we were swapped Hernandez for Berbatov, we would be removing a passenger from the game, and replacing him with someone who would start deeper, be more influenced in the game, and bring the players around him into play.
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The attack was strengthened, Nani was brought on.

Still influenced the game little.

Berbatov would have been deep, Rooney would have gone further forward the I presume and we'd lose his influence on the game, he was our best player mate!

Look, I wanna say summat now to you and Feekeh and the others. I genuinely mean this and not taking the piss but I feel sorry for you that Berbatov didn't play and that he possibly might leave. I've seen some of my favorite players leave down the years and it isn't nice but there are reasons he didn't play and Fergie saw fit not to. You have to winder about that, surely.
 
Hectic said:
Exactly, so bring on someone for Hernandez, who can retain possession as well as strengthening our attack. It wouldn't have made it a rout for Barcelona in anyway if we were swapped Hernandez for Berbatov, we would be removing a passenger from the game, and replacing him with someone who would start deeper, be more influenced in the game, and bring the players around him into play.
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I dont think Hernandez played as badly as you make out. Compare how Pique and Mascherano played against Real. They were far more involved against Real. Against us Pique and Mascherano stayed deep and did not push out much.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Hindsight is marvelous, isn't it mate? I dint think anyone, even Barca, expected it to be as easy as that, Owen was sub if required, bringing him on at 3-1 down when Barca are stil running rings round us would have been daft, they would have scored a couple more!
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Commadus said:
Thats hindsight talking. I don't think it would have made any difference.
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Well it's not hindsight, as I actually argued this before the game, but whatever.

You can honestly say Scoreboard, that you couldn't envisage a situation where we were behind late on but couldn't create much in the final third? I'd go as far to say it was the most likely situation.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
Well it's not hindsight, as I actually argued this before the game, but whatever.

You can honestly say Scoreboard, that you couldn't envisage a situation where we were behind late on but couldn't create much in the final third? I'd go as far to say it was the most likely situation.
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So we get the ball to Berbatov and then what? We have then either no striker forward as Rooney is deep too as he always is or we sacrifice Rooney's industry and involvement and leave him as the lone striker being completely incognito.

Trust me mate, in a way it's better for Berb he DIDN'T play as you can then speculate as you are he might have changed things, but deep down you know as we all do he couldn't have changed that game...
 
Scoreboard Red said:
So we get the ball to Berbatov and then what? We have then either no striker forward as Rooney is deep too as he always is or we sacrifice Rooney's industry and involvement and leave him as the lone striker being completely incognito.

Trust me mate, in a way it's better for Berb he DIDN'T play as you can then speculate as you are he might have changed things, but deep down you know as we all do he couldn't have changed that game...
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Why do you feel you are in a position to tell people what they really think?
 
Commadus said:
Thats hindsight talking. I don't think it would have made any difference.
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No, I agree, we most likely would have lost anyway, but I think we would have had more of an attacking presence, and maintained more possession had he been on from the start.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Trust me mate, in a way it's better for Berb he DIDN'T play as you can then speculate as you are he might have changed things, but deep down you know as we all do he couldn't have changed that game...
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You can say the same for Owen.
 
Commadus said:
I dont think Hernandez played as badly as you make out. Compare how Pique and Mascherano played against Real. They were far more involved against Real. Against us Pique and Mascherano stayed deep and did not push out much.
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I don't think he played that badly at all really, but that he was taken care of very well, and they knew how to deal with him as a team.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
Well it's not hindsight, as I actually argued this before the game, but whatever.
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Argue all you like one player would have made little difference. I was referring to Hectic but by all means argue all you like.

It's the same thing post match.
 
Hectic said:
No, I agree, we most likely would have lost anyway, but I think we would have had more of an attacking presence, and maintained more possession had he been on from the start.
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Perhaps but I think the more we spend on what we could have done different is less time spending on what we need to do now.

What a problem to crack.
 
Sultan said:
You can say the same for Owen.
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Maybe so Sultan but statistically speaking mate, and keeping in mind this was the CL and NOT league opposition, who is more likely to make an impact off the bench?

Who has a better record off the bench in any comp and who has a better CL record for us, starting or sub?

I'm not declaring Owen's record is spectacular, but it is a lot better than Berbatov's...
 
Commadus said:
Perhaps but I think the more we spend on what we could have done different is less time spending on what we need to do now.

What a problem to crack.
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I know, but I'm not focusing on what we need to do now, or stuck in the past and what we could have done, but responding to an earlier point. The game is past me now, but my thoughts are still the same before and after.

Commadus said:
I think they knew how to deal with all of team!!!
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Most definitely, it's a huge long-shot that Berbatov would have been able to change the result, but I have no doubt in my mind he would have changed our game slightly, by giving us posession and having someone deeper into play. But yes, regardless, I think we would have lost.
 
I would be a bit gutted if he left, especially after a damned good season. There aren't many strikers around with his talent.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Maybe so Sultan but statistically speaking mate, and keeping in mind this was the CL and NOT league opposition, who is more likely to make an impact off the bench?

Who has a better record off the bench in any comp and who has a better CL record for us, starting or sub?

I'm not declaring Owen's record is spectacular, but it is a lot better than Berbatov's...
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But you are looking at end product alone, or what he could have contributed to the game in terms of goals, that's fine for Owen, his movement and positioning often means his main contribution is in the form of goals, although his passing is very assured. Berbatov has a lot more to his game, and those qualities were far more needed. I'm not sure either player could have got us more goals against that team, but Berbatov might have had a much stronger hold on the game, especially since we were seeing such little of the ball up front. I feel Owen would have been a duplicate of Hernandez, lost up front and taken out of the game, whereas Berbatov would have had to drop deep and face more of the ball.
 
sincher said:
I would be a bit gutted if he left, especially after a damned good season. There aren't many strikers around with his talent.
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Aye me too. He has been brilliant this season and has shown great attitude even when he's dropped. Handled our attack beautifully along with Nani when Rooney had a brainfart and Hernandez was settling in.

I get irritated when people try to knock his 20 goals by saying that he scored against the lower level teams etc, it could be said that winning the match against lower-mid table teams wins you titles.
 
How would people rate Berbatov's season out of 10?
 
Hectic said:
How would people rate Berbatov's season out of 10?
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8/10

2nd half of the season for Berbatov was quiet but that was mainly down to the form of Rooney & Hernandez as a partnership.

Certainly his best season in a United shirt
 
Scoreboard Red said:
I'm not talking about his twenty goals Brophs, I'm talking about you lot saying he'd come on and make a difference even though he has only scored once from a sub appearance in those twenty goals as well as a poor record against big teams and certainly in Europe.

I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm talking sense it's just I think you find it hard to listen to logic as you're disappointed he didn't play and may actually leave the club. I'm disappointed he might leave but I've said for a VERY long time I don't think he was a right fit and in all honesty, I think I've had a very large justification...
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Nah, I'm not one of those people who necessarily felt he'd have come on and made a difference but I do think he should have been on the bench at the expense of one of the three midfielders.

So I doesn't come down to me being disappointed or unwilling to listen to logic. It just becomes incredibly cringey to watch you jump on anything remotely negative and talk up players like Owen who have contributed very little in any sense to our success and then try to claim this is all part of you being even-handed.
 
Berbatov didn't score off the bench against West Ham. What was his impact like there?

Of course all of this discussion is futile to a point, as there was no way we weren't losing that match with Barca playing like that, without massive slices of luck, but the point is that it was rather unnecessary of SAF to include Owen on the bench ahead of Berbatov. There was much more likely to be a scenario requiring Berba than there was Owen. The only scenario I can think of requiring Owen is if we were one goal behind, chasing an equaliser, creating a lot of chances in the final third and if Hernández was injured/knackered.
 
Bryan_Munich said:
@Scoreboard Red

Do you think we should sell him them?
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I personally don't think we should have bought him originally mate, and despite a very good half a season, he's been distinctly average at best since January which is frustrating.

Problem I see is if we sell him, who comes in and at what figurative cost? If we buy Benzema for example (whom I'm a big fan of), does he displace Chico?

If we buy Sneijder, is there a need for another striker given the role he plays?

Lots of questions but yes, I would sell him. My logic is he doesn't perform against the likes of Chelsea or Arsenal and in Europe which at United are very frequent games.
 
Brophs said:
Nah, I'm not one of those people who necessarily felt he'd have come on and made a difference but I do think he should have been on the bench at the expense of one of the three midfielders.

So I doesn't come down to me being disappointed or unwilling to listen to logic. It just becomes incredibly cringey to watch you jump on anything remotely negative and talk up players like Owen who have contributed very little in any sense to our success and then try to claim this is all part of you being even-handed.
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Fair enough, let's carry it on in the Owen bashing thread, meet you there in five, yeah?
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Maybe so Sultan but statistically speaking mate, and keeping in mind this was the CL and NOT league opposition, who is more likely to make an impact off the bench?

Who has a better record off the bench in any comp and who has a better CL record for us, starting or sub?

I'm not declaring Owen's record is spectacular, but it is a lot better than Berbatov's...
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Berbatov is a lot better player than Owen, and offers a lot more both in the penalty and overall team play. I'm just making a call from observations made over the last few years. I'm not into statistics.
 
Some nice fighting talk from him today. Good to see he's fine with staying and battling it out. Nice change compared to the tantrums Ruud threw.
 
Sultan said:
Berbatov is a lot better player than Owen, and offers a lot more both in the penalty and overall team play. I'm just making a call from observations made over the last few years. I'm not into statistics.
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That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, I'm not one for stats either (ask Feekeh) but from my opinion just from watching Berb the past three seasons, he's only ever scored once against title challenging teams, a gratuitous third against Chelsea in Scolari's last game whereas as I say, Owen has scored in major games for England, Liverpool and United including finals at Wembley.

Forlan is clearly a top player, he's been La Liga top scorer and Euro Golden Boot but had a torrid time at United. Veron is another.

Some players just aren't United players mate, I would categorize Berbatov in this segment.
 
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