Berbatov | Fulham player

Sharky7 said:
As I've mentioned before, how much did his introduction help the last time v. Barca with all this "hold up play" I'm hearing of?

The last sentence was bang on feeky.

And now I really am OUT... :D
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Just because a player doesn't have an impact in one game in one area that happens to be a strength of theirs doesn't mean they will in another, especially in a period of greater form. How much did Rooney help us away to Blackpool with all this "great touch and passing I'm hearing about?". More to the point, how much did Michael Owen help us against Juventus with all this "great finishing" I'm hearing about? And so on.

Players can be completely different animals from week to week, never mind from 2 years to today in the case of Berbatov, or 10 years in the case of Owen and that cup final, which the Owen of today bears little resemblance to.
 
Bryan_Munich said:
Presumably Owen didn't come on because we weren't creating chances.
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so Berbatov would've been a better option - Owen is an excellent sub to have up your sleeve but it's only duplicating Hernandez when Berb just might've offered something else. Even if he didn't, at least we'd've tried something else.
 
Listen guys, the bottom line is Fergie didn't pick him for the final because he clearly doesn't fancy him to make an impact in the biggest games. He knows better than anyone what he expects from his players, and if he does not feel they will offer enough, it is not only his right, but his job to make the decision he feels best for the team.

He rarely starts in any of the big matches, either domestically or in Europe, and to be honest his goalscoring record in Europe for a top striker is pretty abysmal.

Berbatov is a very talented player but for whatever reason it just hasn't really happened for him. As someone already said he is our top scorer this season, yet the manager still doesn't seem to trust him to deliver when it really matters.

I have no doubt someone will point out a few big games he has started, but in general when we play the top teams, Berba is more often than not, on the bench. He has had 3 seasons to prove his worth to the manager and unfortunately for him, it appears he has failed to do so.

I am neither for nor against Berbatov, but i have to say looking at his Utd career overall, i am not too bothered whether he stays or not. I would prefer to have a player who is going to seriously challenge Rooney and Hernandez for a starting position, not someone who is only going to get a game when the others are out of form, injured, suspended or in need of a rest.

We do already have Michael Owen to fulfill that role.
 
Maybe Owen was on the bench in case Hernandez got injured, maybe he was there in case the game was about to go to penalties, or maybe if there was just 1 goal in it with a few mintues to go Sir Alex would throw Owen on.

When it was 3-1 Fergie was probably worried about getting hammered 4 or 5 - 1 and went into damage limitation mode.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
Just because a player doesn't have an impact in one game in one area that happens to be a strength of theirs doesn't mean they will in another, especially in a period of greater form. How much did Rooney help us away to Blackpool with all this "great touch and passing I'm hearing about?". More to the point, how much did Michael Owen help us against Juventus with all this "great finishing" I'm hearing about? And so on.

Players can be completely different animals from week to week, never mind from 2 years to today in the case of Berbatov, or 10 years in the case of Owen and that cup final, which the Owen of today bears little resemblance to.
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Yeah, we really needed that win against Juventus, it was a do or die game!
 
I'd rather have Berbatov than Owen for the role apotheosis was talking about, to be honest. He offers more while Owen is simply a poor man's Hernandez.
 
Bryan_Munich said:
Presumably Owen didn't come on because we weren't creating chances.
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That's the point. You don't need a goalscorer to change the course of the game. Berbatov can both hold the ball, create and finish.
 
Siorac said:
I'd rather have Berbatov than Owen for the role apotheosis was talking about, to be honest. He offers more while Owen is simply a poor man's Hernandez.
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Owen has scored in World Cups, FA Cup Finals and League Cup Finals as well as netting several goals from the bench.

Berbatov hasn't, that's why he wasn't chosen.
 
I'm not sure Berbatov's ability or lack of was the reason he was not picked ahead of Owen. The reasons run deeper than comparative abilities.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Yeah, we really needed that win against Juventus, it was a do or die game!
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You're missing the point. That actually wasn't something I was genuinely saying, it was a replica of something Sharky said, in order to show how you can spin these things and how just because one thing happened doesn't mean it will happen again.
 
Ixion said:
Maybe Owen was on the bench in case Hernandez got injured, maybe he was there in case the game was about to go to penalties, or maybe if there was just 1 goal in it with a few mintues to go Sir Alex would throw Owen on.

When it was 3-1 Fergie was probably worried about getting hammered 4 or 5 - 1 and went into damage limitation mode.
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Damage limitation? In a cup final?

That's never been Fergie's way.

Besides, there was a spell of about 15 minutes after their third where we started to see a lot more of the ball and push Barca back but couldn't quite get the final ball right. Berbatov would have been a decent option at that point. Certainly better than a striker Fergie didn't even trust to get off the bench when we were desperate for goals.
 
nemanja15 said:
The way I see it:

11/12: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Owen

12/13: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Welbeck
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that is a very good idea.

as much as i want to have welbeck back into our team, with owen signing an extension, and i am still believing that berba offers much more than owen and welbeck would next season, i think it is better for welbeck to stay at sunderland for another season.

we need to splash our transfer budget on 2 new midfielders and a GK...upfront we are fine at it is...
 
So much ability, but so frustrating to watch. Whenever you really need him to deliver, he rarely seems too.

So hit & miss, I would like him to stay though.

Blackpool summed up how furstrating he can be, I mean he had probably 10 chances alone!!
 
Does anyone remember that after match interview in the CL, 12 months or so ago, when the interviewer pointed out to Fergie that Berba hadn't scored in Europe for however long?

I was really surprised by how visibly shocked Fergie looked by that statistic, does anyone think being made aware of this stat has since influenced his opinion on Berba in Europe?

Because i doubt very much whether Owen would have had a place on the bench instead of Berba in an importnat domestic game.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Owen has scored in World Cups, FA Cup Finals and League Cup Finals as well as netting several goals from the bench.

Berbatov hasn't, that's why he wasn't chosen.
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Why wasn't he brought on when we were chasing a goal then? Because we were creating little in the final third and needed a change in the build-up, something which was entirely predictable. If we were creating in the final third and were chasing a goal, then we already had Hernández, who is a very similar player to Owen, simply on a higher level.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
He can Sultan, but he doesn't...
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Nah, all 20 odd of those goals and however many assists were just a happy coincidence, were they?

You're embarrassing yourself, Johnno. Regardless of whether you think he's not good enough for us, completely diminishing everything he's done for us or qualifying it to the point that it looks irrelevant (while simultaneously talking up Owen, a player who couldn't get near our team most of the season) smacks of you simply leaping upon this latest development to push your anti-Berbatov agenda. You'll come out and say 'Oh, no one wants him to succeed more than me' but we all know that's not true.
 
If Berbatov stays, then I'll be happy for him; if he goes, I'll understand the manager's thinking on this matter.

Away from club matters for just a moment, it's commendable that Dimitar has a Foundation, which is responsible for helping Bulgarian children prosper:

Dimitar Berbatov Foundation

He's a good man, a highly talented footballer and, for both reasons, I'd like him to succeed here. But I feel that Sir Alex has major doubts about Berba's mentality; for that reason, I think he'll be gone if it suits the club.
 
The problem is that SAF played him up front as a lone striker too often. Whenever that happened, Berba's body language spoke volumes - he didn't like that role and he just gave up.
 
Must resist thread......

I keep telling myself just to leave Berbatov threads alone. But its hard damn it. ITS hard
 
apotheosis said:
Listen guys, the bottom line is Fergie didn't pick him for the final because he clearly doesn't fancy him to make an impact in the biggest games. He knows better than anyone what he expects from his players, and if he does not feel they will offer enough, it is not only his right, but his job to make the decision he feels best for the team.

He rarely starts in any of the big matches, either domestically or in Europe, and to be honest his goalscoring record in Europe for a top striker is pretty abysmal.

Berbatov is a very talented player but for whatever reason it just hasn't really happened for him. As someone already said he is our top scorer this season, yet the manager still doesn't seem to trust him to deliver when it really matters.

I have no doubt someone will point out a few big games he has started, but in general when we play the top teams, Berba is more often than not, on the bench. He has had 3 seasons to prove his worth to the manager and unfortunately for him, it appears he has failed to do so.

I am neither for nor against Berbatov, but i have to say looking at his Utd career overall, i am not too bothered whether he stays or not. I would prefer to have a player who is going to seriously challenge Rooney and Hernandez for a starting position, not someone who is only going to get a game when the others are out of form, injured, suspended or in need of a rest.

We do already have Michael Owen to fulfill that role.
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fair points for the most part but anyone who is gonna challenge Rooney and Hernandez won't want to be bench warming either - I don't see how you can say it appears he has failed when the aalternative also failed. He was our leading scorer despite spending half the season on the bench

as for your last line, much as I admire Owen, he is pretty one-dimensional and a duplication of the apparent 1st choice Hernandez. Perhaps he was there for the penalty shoot-out that never happened

Ixion said:
Maybe Owen was on the bench in case Hernandez got injured, maybe he was there in case the game was about to go to penalties, or maybe if there was just 1 goal in it with a few mintues to go Sir Alex would throw Owen on.

When it was 3-1 Fergie was probably worried about getting hammered 4 or 5 - 1 and went into damage limitation mode.
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damage limitation my arse - i've never yet known Fergie to resort to that whilst one or two goals down. Totally alien to the man. He's never going to resort to "face-saving" when the alternative is match-saving.
 
I think that SAF will take alot of things in consideration. Berba is now 30 and with two years left in his contract. This is the last time we'll get good money out of him and there are rumors that we'll going to get 3-4 signings. Considering that he is not an impact player and that we've already got Rooney, Speedy Gonzalez, Owen, Macheda and Welbeck upfront then I wont be surprised if the Bulgarian leaves OT.
 
Sultan said:
Compared to Owen?
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Given his history, yes; Owen has scored off the bench for us, Bernatov has done very little for us traditionally from the bench, one goal versus Bolton.

Pogue Mahone said:
He has, actually.
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He has, has he? He's scored in the WC, FA Cup & League Cup Finals as well as SEVERAL goals off the bench?

Are you sure about that our Pogue?
 
I'd like him to stay and I do feel he has been treated a little unfairly this season. He's had no more poor games than some other big names but been made to pay a higher price.

I think Ferguson got pretty much everything wrong on Saturday and Berbatov's absence was just one of a series of odd calls by Fergie.

If we let him go, then I hope we are bringning in someone as Welbeck is not ready to offer the same options as Berbs.
 
Brophs said:
Nah, all 20 odd of those goals and however many assists were just a happy coincidence, were they?

You're embarrassing yourself, Johnno. Regardless of whether you think he's not good enough for us, completely diminishing everything he's done for us or qualifying it to the point that it looks irrelevant (while simultaneously talking up Owen, a player who couldn't get near our team most of the season) smacks of you simply leaping upon this latest development to push your anti-Berbatov agenda. You'll come out and say 'Oh, no one wants him to succeed more than me' but we all know that's not true.
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I'm not talking about his twenty goals Brophs, I'm talking about you lot saying he'd come on and make a difference even though he has only scored once from a sub appearance in those twenty goals as well as a poor record against big teams and certainly in Europe.

I'm not embarrassing myself, I'm talking sense it's just I think you find it hard to listen to logic as you're disappointed he didn't play and may actually leave the club. I'm disappointed he might leave but I've said for a VERY long time I don't think he was a right fit and in all honesty, I think I've had a very large justification...
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Owen has scored in World Cups, FA Cup Finals and League Cup Finals as well as netting several goals from the bench.

Berbatov hasn't, that's why he wasn't chosen.
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His last World Cup goal was in 2002; his FA Cup final goals came in 2001. A bloody decade ago.

If we keep Berbatov then I'd rather have Welbeck as the fourth striker. If Berbatov leaves and Owen is promoted to the role of third striker that's, for me, a definite drop of quality.

I'm reduced to hoping that we sign Ashley Young, at least he can perform in that second striker role behind Hernández or Rooney. But Fergie's threat that he wants to play Owen more doesn't sound good.
 
Donkey's Ears said:
I'd like him to stay and I do feel he has been treated a little unfairly this season. He's had no more poor games than some other big names but been made to pay a higher price.

I think Ferguson got pretty much everything wrong on Saturday and Berbatov's absence was just one of a series of odd calls by Fergie.

If we let him go, then I hope we are bringning in someone as Welbeck is not ready to offer the same options as Berbs.
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agree with every word - has had more influence than several off-key players this season but been overlooked even when on fire. Strange that just when finding his feet he gets the rug pulled from under him. Don't think he's necessarily a starter in all games but an excellent alternative

maybe this is a '96 moment for Fergie - big changes afoot. ????????????
 
I think the roots of the Barca defeat go way back before the Final itself.
 
The only reason I can see SAF part with Berba is that he wants to cash in on his good season and use that money with some more to buy a different type of player and mould our side in a different way. SAF is looking a couple of years down the line when Berba would be about 33 and how much would he offer then?

This is the harsh realities of football at times. SAF is going to reshape his squad an players who may have had excellent seasons will be discarded.

Ruud, Ronaldo left and we were still succesful afterwards and both players contributed more to United than Berba has done so far.
 
Denis - I'd be happy for him to stay too, but it must be accepted he won't play in the big games because he's had three seasons and hasn't produced in the title deciders, the cup games or in Europe, God knows why not as he clearly has the ability.
 
Denis' cuff said:
agree with every word - has had more influence than several off-key players this season but been overlooked even when on fire. Strange that just when finding his feet he gets the rug pulled from under him. Don't think he's necessarily a starter in all games but an excellent alternative

maybe this is a '96 moment for Fergie - big changes afoot. ????????????
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I get that feeling too, many of our players have had quite a while together, and maybe Fergie feels now is the time to freshen things up, especially with a few of the old guard already hanging up their boots.

Interesting summer ahead i think.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
I'm talking about you lot saying he'd come on and make a difference even though he has only scored once from a sub appearance in those twenty goals as well as a poor record against big teams and certainly in Europe.
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A player does not need to be a goalscorer to make a difference as a sub.
 
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