Without Maradona though, Napoli wouldn't have been the force they were - that's clear. But he did have a couple of good players alongside him, notably Careca who I seem to remember banged in plenty of goals.
Messi is better than maradona....
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Jobup has, hasn't he?
Oh, well... him and Boss can easily be discounted due to their obvious hyperbole. They nearly cancel each other out (Boss wins in terms of sheer number of posts).
This is always something I'd wanted to bring up at some point on this forum, funnily enough, though I can appreciate that it's not entirely relevant in this thread. I didn't see Bobby Moore obviously, and my experience of him is limited to some World Cup footage and the odd video clip.
However, given the nature of how player's seem to be rated in this country, I've often wondered just how good he was, and have considered Rio Ferdinand as a comparison when I've had a chance to ask this question.
What was he like in the league? Does he stack up favourably against Rio Ferdinand - the best defender in Europe for about half a decade, dominating all manner of opposition he came across (Torres, Eto'o, Drogba, Adebayor, Ibrahimovic and even halting Messi in 2008 - the man who said he was the most difficult defender he'd come up against)?
As much as I'd like to believe he really was all that, and as much as I'm in no position to say otherwise, there's something inside me that wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't deserving of a place on such a list, in light of, say, the Cannavaro award in 2006, and the way John Terry was viewed all round Europe even when he wasn't as good as Vidic, Ferdinand and also Chiellini at one point. Has the way we view players as a whole changed that much? What was his league form like, for example? Would he be held in anything like the same esteem if he wasn't the captain of the 66 England team?
Not asking to be facetious in any way; it's always a question that I've been wanting to ask, and this would seem the thread to ask it in at the moment, strangely enough.
Ciro Ferrara also.
some of maradona's teammates during the first scudetto: Andrea Carnevale -played for italy in 1990 world cup- Fernando De Napoli -played for italy in 1986 and 1990 world cups-, Garella, the goalkeeper,came from verona where he won the scudetto two years before, Ciro Ferrara -another 1990 world cup italian player- Salvatore Bagni - played for italy in 1986 world cup-
for the next scudetto, they bought alemao and careca, two brazilian national team players
i'm not saying that he didn't acomplish anything, i'm saying that he was surrounded by players that were as good as the ones Verona and Sampdoria had
because in those years the teams that won the scudetto were these:
year champion 2nd top scorer
1984–85 Hellas Verona FC A.C. Torino Michel Platini
1985–86 F.C. Juventus A.S. Roma Roberto Pruzzo
1986–87 Napoli F.C. Juventus Pietro Paolo Virdis
1987–88 A.C. Milan Napoli Diego Maradona
1988–89 Inter Napoli Aldo Serena
1989–90 Napoli Milan Marco van Basten
1990–91 UC Sampdoria Milan Gianluca Vialli
so Napoli wasn't the only team at that time that could beat the powerfull juventus and the milan teams, verona and sampdoria did well too, in fact even Torino came second
that gives maradona's achievement another context
for the next scudetto, they bought alemao and careca, two brazilian national team players
i'm not saying that he didn't acomplish anything, i'm saying that he was surrounded by players that were as good as the ones Verona and Sampdoria had
because in those years the teams that won the scudetto were these:
year champion 2nd top scorer
1984–85 Hellas Verona FC A.C. Torino Michel Platini
1985–86 F.C. Juventus A.S. Roma Roberto Pruzzo
1986–87 Napoli F.C. Juventus Pietro Paolo Virdis
1987–88 A.C. Milan Napoli Diego Maradona
1988–89 Inter Napoli Aldo Serena
1989–90 Napoli Milan Marco van Basten
1990–91 UC Sampdoria Milan Gianluca Vialli
so Napoli wasn't the only team at that time that could beat the powerfull juventus and the milan teams, verona and sampdoria did well too, in fact even Torino came second
that gives maradona's achievement another context
Maradona won a world cup in a team that by comparison wasnt as talented as the current Argie set up, Until Messi wins a WC he cant claim to be the best ever imo!
what do you know about the 1986 argie players? that they didnt play in europe? thats why you think they were not as good as the ones that are playing today?
Um because I watched that world cup? every game of it, you think we all started watching football in 1993 on here? dont be so arrogant
so you saw them during 7 games, in wich they won a world cup and you think they are not as good as the ones that didnt win a world cup and lost 4-0 against germany,
all right
My take on it was that Messi would never compare on the basis that the conditions and whole backgound of football these days is more favourable now than it was 30 years ago particularly if you play in a side that is recognised as the greatest team currently and possibly all time.
On pure ability alone I feel Maradona had more strings to his bow than Messi but I would concede that that could change as Messi develops further. I feel he was physically more imposing and stronger in his use of the ball and as a personality on the field could also affect his teamates more. He had more of an aura about him than Messi (although no doubt off the pitch that is in Messis favour!)
All in all for me at any rate I can see that Maradona would have been even better playing with this Barca side and I cant see that Messi would have done what Maradona did in lesser circumctances in the 80/s 90s.
I also feel that internationally Messi is in Maradona's long shadow and until he has a bigger impact then that alone will stop any large scale comparison too
I base it on having seen Maradona in everything he did and the same for Messi.
The efforts to denegrate Maradona's game post history are just nonsense and clarly agenda driven in my view
Id say its unfair on Messi but at least he has time on his side to prove lovers of the game like myself wrong
Yeah because individual skils are all thats important to a world cup winning team. That 86 side had a great team mentality with a good coach and a great player leading them. I would argue the present Argentina side have better technical players with a great player leading them, they werent much of a team. So Messis inability to lead the Argentina team like Maradona did leads me to believe he isnt the complete player Maradona was.you are talking about me?
ok
Maradona > Messi until further notice..live with it!
i dont doubt it, i think that Maradona is better than Messi and that Messi has to improve some skills before they can be compared
my difference of opinion with Jopub is that he says that messi will never be in the same level, while i think that he might
Going to watch my first Maradona game tonight, Napoli-Juve in the Supercup in '90. A little bit excited.
give us a match report when you're done.
Robert De Niro I think.
In 1990 Maradona was clearly nowhere near the force which ran riot in Mexico. He struggled to stamp his authority on games suffering both with injury and heavy treatment from the opposition. Argentina were lucky to get through the group stages after Diego's handball; luckier still to get past a misfiring and a woodwork-spurned Brazil; and perhaps luckiest of all that Pumpido broke his leg allowing reserve keeper Goycochea to come in and save 4 penalties on their way to the final.
Nevertheless, Maradona remained a talismanic and decisive influence on the team. He had a key role in grinding out the crucial draw with Romania and his defence-splitting assist made the difference against Brazil. On the whole the Maradona - Cannigia axis was as dangerous a pairing as any other in the tournament and the latter's suspension killed off any realistic hopes Argentina harboured of winning the final.
There was a bit of discussion on Moore in the Ferdinand/Vidic thread - https://www.redcafe.net/f6/ferdinand-vidic-their-pomp-330090/index7.html#post9799774
Nevertheless, Maradona remained a talismanic and decisive influence on the team. He had a key role in grinding out the crucial draw with Romania and his defence-splitting assist made the difference against Brazil. On the whole the Maradona - Cannigia axis was as dangerous a pairing as any other in the tournament and the latter's suspension killed off any realistic hopes Argentina harboured of winning the final.
There was a bit of discussion on Moore in the Ferdinand/Vidic thread - https://www.redcafe.net/f6/ferdinand-vidic-their-pomp-330090/index7.html#post9799774
I find it hard to believe that Maradona's Argentina teams didn't have any other great players.
It's Argetina for feck sakes.
I know Maradona probably made everyone on his team look like vastly inferior players but come on now.
It's Argetina for feck sakes.
I know Maradona probably made everyone on his team look like vastly inferior players but come on now.
No there was a period when they were definitely much poorer than the previous sides apart from Maradona and as I said earlier he showed a side of his game that was not all about explosive genius but a more motivation captaincy that really pulled them up a notch or two (or three!)
Personally I can't see Messi having done the same.
Its gonna be interesting this because you can see that Messi will have to, in some way show a more stronger 'personalised' side of himself if he's to really inspire Argentina to great things.
It's not a critiscm but I'm not convinced he's that type of person.
Hopefully he is and will step that part of himself up a level for the national side.
We should be seeing just where all this sits by the next world cup where expectation on young Lionel will be incredible after his Barca performances in the last year or so
That 'global' expectation and fullfillment of it is something that Maradona dealt with, with his eyes shut, it was part of what and who he is. I sometimes feel with Messi he'd prefer to be left alone which is the opposite of the glory hunting, public, strength of personality ' there is nothing I cannot do' character of Maradona
Fascinating to see how it plays out with Messi
Watch the games, especially vs England, everybody's technical level seems to be a level above.
People make it to seem Maradona was playing with 10 Bebes.
The players he played with in 1986 and 1990 mostly played in Argentina though, so not many actually got the exposure to be rated properly. Only the likes of Valdano, Caniggia and Sensini made it to European teams. We can't make informed decisions on how good they were seeing as we weren't informed in the first place
And bizarrely for somebody who IS Argentina you know even fking less
You do all the talking you want. I'll recall my and the rest of the world's reality experience with Maradona doing what he did, which we actually saw in real life.
Unfortunately for you what Diego Maradona did in the history of football is not exclusive to some backwater in Buenos Aires where nobody else saw it.
We out here on planet earth have actually seen what he did and not some bollocks 'legend' like you're trying make people believe
You have some agenda -fk knows why
Fkme in relation to earlier parts of this thread this is very funnyRooney believes that because of his smaller frame, Messi would not be as well suited to the more physical nature of the Premier League as former team-mate and Real Madrid star Cristiano Ronaldo proved to be in his time at OldTrafford.
He added: “It’s more physical, the Premier League — the likes of going to Stoke or Birmingham away are incredibly difficult games to play. I think if you look at the two players, Ronaldo is suited more for Englishfootball than Messi would be.
Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney: Barcelona's Lionel Messi would find it difficult against Stoke City - Goal.com
very funny indeed
Rooney also called Messi the best player ever
Footballer in chatting shit shocker. Messi is stronger on the ball than he who must not be named in this thread.
Probably stronger on the ball than Rooney and all. That Zaragoza goal was almost surreal.
Probably stronger on the ball than Rooney and all. That Zaragoza goal was almost surreal.
And bizarrely for somebody who IS Argentina you know even fking less
You do all the talking you want. I'll recall my and the rest of the world's reality experience with Maradona doing what he did, which we actually saw in real life.
Unfortunately for you what Diego Maradona did in the history of football is not exclusive to some backwater in Buenos Aires where nobody else saw it.
We out here on planet earth have actually seen what he did and not some bollocks 'legend' like you're trying make people believe
You have some agenda -fk knows why
i might have an agenda, but you dont have a clue
the argentinian players that where with maradona
in 1984 argentinos juniors won the libertadores cup, and after one of the best games i've seen they tied 2-2 with platini´s juventus only to lose the intercontinental cup by penalty shoot outs
Argentinos juniors players: Sergio Batista, Claudio Borghi, Pasculli -during the world cup he was playing at Lecce, italy, but was in argentinos juniors in 1984-
in 1985 independiente won the libertadores cup and they won the intercontinental cup against liverpool
Independiente Players: Giusti, Clausen, Burruchaga --during the world cup he was playing at Nantes, france, but was in independiente in 1985- (you might add other players but they barely play a few minutes during that world cup)
in 1986 river plate won the libertadores cup and they won the intercontinental cup against steatua bucarest -steaua beat barcelona in the CL final-
River Plate players Ruggeri, Pumpido, Enrique -this three players, are maybe only ones that in one year won, the world cup with their national team and the continental and intercontinental cup with their home team-
to those players you must add Olarticoechea, who at that moment was playing for boca and was an excepcional player -he set up the goal against italy in 1990- and was part of the argentinian team during 1982, 1986 and 1990 world cups
garre, so-so player, he played the first two games then he was replaced by cucciuffo -better but nothing out of this world-
Valdano, who at that moment was playing in Real Madrid with who he won two ligas and two uefa cups
seriously Jopub, stick to arsenal, you'll talk shit, but at least no one will noticed, because no one cares
Tbh I agree... Jopub, please stop it... you're not helping the pro-Diego side ;P
It's 1% possible Jopub's posts would be taken more seriously if he didn't have
in EVERY single one.
in EVERY single one.
The fact that Messi's current achievements at the age of 23 are being compared to those in Maradona's whole career just proves how unbelievably good he already is.
In terms of club achievement, I don't think Messi really has much room for improvement having scored 53 goals to win the Spanish and European titles and retained World Player of the Year, but if he keeps this kind of form up for even 2 or 3 years more, I think he'll become the best ever.
IMO, only career-threatening injury problems can stop this guy from becoming just that.
In terms of club achievement, I don't think Messi really has much room for improvement having scored 53 goals to win the Spanish and European titles and retained World Player of the Year, but if he keeps this kind of form up for even 2 or 3 years more, I think he'll become the best ever.
IMO, only career-threatening injury problems can stop this guy from becoming just that.
Boss: Heh, agreed... it comes across as a manic attempt at displaying how ridiculous the opposition's claims are... problem is when it's just a flurry of insults and no substantive arguments it just comes across as petty sniping.
Mufcwarm92: They can't really be compared in that sense... Messi started his career for Barca in his early teens, whereas Maradona had only just made it to Europe in 82, when he was 22, or nearing 22.
Mufcwarm92: They can't really be compared in that sense... Messi started his career for Barca in his early teens, whereas Maradona had only just made it to Europe in 82, when he was 22, or nearing 22.
I haven't seen much of Maradona so I can't really draw a comparison but in the end it's down to those that saw both to simply decide which they player they thought was better at football.
Facts such as goals scored, goals set up or even trophies one can be influenced by so many factors such as Messi playing with players he grew up with (and the best team in the world) or Maradona playing in a much more cohesive and capable unit on the international level than the one Messi has taken the field with.
I mean what if Messi is never part of a TEAM worthy of winning a world cup? He won't be able to help it if his team constantly let in goals. And what if Messi's presence in the best team in the world (by far) and one that has a midfield that sweeps all before it, does make his job far easier? Thing is, unless some one comes along and ticks every single box that is there to be ticked, there will be debate. And really it comes down to individual opinion more than anything else.
Facts such as goals scored, goals set up or even trophies one can be influenced by so many factors such as Messi playing with players he grew up with (and the best team in the world) or Maradona playing in a much more cohesive and capable unit on the international level than the one Messi has taken the field with.
I mean what if Messi is never part of a TEAM worthy of winning a world cup? He won't be able to help it if his team constantly let in goals. And what if Messi's presence in the best team in the world (by far) and one that has a midfield that sweeps all before it, does make his job far easier? Thing is, unless some one comes along and ticks every single box that is there to be ticked, there will be debate. And really it comes down to individual opinion more than anything else.
Its funny really
You can do as much as you want to get people to think Maradona had nothing to do with getting that relatively poor Argentina side to the final in 1990 but fk it there's millions of us who saw otherwise
Weird if you ask me
There's probably 5 people on this planet who think Maradona had little or nothing to do with it and you're one of 'em
Keep going with your lists
......it won't change a fking thing
They are ridiculous claims - Maradona had little or nothing to do with getting that Argentina side to a world cup final in 1990
That's what he's said and keeps saying and if you can get 5 people in a room on this earth to agree with him I'll eat my hat
Rooney also called Messi the best player ever
Yeah and he also questions wether he might be able to do it at places like Stoke ( well I'll be damned!) and Birmingham
Okay I might not know shit but I spose Rooney who plays at those places knows shit as well
The irony concerning Stoke is now even funnier after the shit about it earlier
I agree. Cannigia was quality too...but Maradona's vision got them to the final with a very medicore side. To be fair, he wasn't half the player he used to be in 1990, I think a lot of it was down to being injured prior to the WC. But yeah, no match for me....he was a freak.