A people's Revolution

Im just amazed at Mubarak's schoolboy error yesterday.

Just as people all around the world including within Egypt itself were beginning to ask if this could go on, just when the story was no longer the headline news, just as the wind was slowly being sucked out from the sails, Mubarak goes on TV and inflames his demonstrators by giving them a huge dose of adrenalin and renewed hatred. Very very very poor strategic move.

Delighted for Egypt and for the entire middle east, let the domino's fall and let a new era of history begin. Its the best thing to have happened for Muslim people for a long long time.
 
RedKaos said:
Obama: "The US will continue to be a friend and partner to all the people of Egypt. We stand ready to provide whatever assistance is asked for"

Oh do feck off Obama you charlatan, some friend you were over these few weeks.

If him and his Washington cronies had any dignity left then they'd do well to shut up instead of shamelessly trying to score brownie points off the Egyptians, a people who's suffering they themselves facilitated for 30 years.

Put away the hollywood speeches and crocodile tears and let the Egyptians have their moment.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
Sultan said:
I really can't see what he has said is so awful.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it's awful but it is a strange thing to say that the US will continue to support all people of Egypt because it basically implies that the US has been supporting all people of Egypt for the past three decades. Maybe I'm a bit picky but I think I can see a discrepancy there. Especially in light of recent events. So I'm not really blaming Obama for anything here but I'm not praising him also. He's just another Washington politician who will do whatever is in his power to accommodate and achieve the goals of his foreign policy. No surprises there. Which kinda makes his statement meaningless.
 
Excal said:
I usually try to push back against the "Americans are ignorant" stereotype, but even today, 82% of the people in this country can't formulate two sentences that'd coherently and accurately describe what's happening in Egypt right now. Meanwhile, a few weeks ago it was not remotely clear that anything like what has happened since would happen.
Click to expand...

:confused: The question put forward to the American people was simple enough: "Do you support the protesters right to demand democracy and removal of the dictator Hosni Mubarak". They aren't been asked to give their opinions on the latest particle physics phenomenons. Regardless 82% agreed, Obama didn't.

Excal said:
To say that he should've publicly denounced Mubarak then is almost as idiotic as your claim that he's somehow taking credit for the revolution today.
Click to expand...

Look, I wasn't expecting him to denounce Mubarak since I recognise he was a key ally of the US. But for crying out loud if you're going to stay quiet in the beginning then stay quiet now. It's horribly perfidious for Obama to break his silence claiming that they were always looking out for their interests AFTER the Egyptians had bled to oust Mubarak.

MikeUpNorth said:
RedKaos, not everything's about the USA. Most world leaders have made a statement today, if you don't want to hear what the US has to say then don't listen to them.
Click to expand...

None of these other world leaders have annually donated $1.5billion to his tyrannous regime and have helped him consolidate his power for 3 decades.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I'm not saying it's awful but it is a strange thing to say that the US will continue to support all people of Egypt because it basically implies that the US has been supporting all people of Egypt for the past three decades. Maybe I'm a bit picky but I think I can see a discrepancy there. Especially in light of recent events. So I'm not really blaming Obama for anything here but I'm not praising him also. He's just another Washington politician who will do whatever is in his power to accommodate and achieve the goals of his foreign policy. No surprises there. Which kinda makes his statement meaningless.
Click to expand...

Havent the US been giving a few billion a year to Egypt for a while? I think that would qualify as support.
 
Come on bro! There's no such thing as angelic politicians. Or never has there been a perfect foreign policy. Let bygones and all that....
 
RedKaos said:
:confused: The question put forward to the American people was simple enough: "Do you support the protesters right to demand democracy and removal of the dictator Hosni Mubarak".
Click to expand...

:lol: That's how the question was worded? I'm surprised the yes response was only 82%. Meanwhile, it only makes my point that there's no great engagement of the American people on this issue.

Look, I wasn't expecting him to denounce Mubarak since I recognise he was a key ally of the US.
Click to expand...

Then you'd prefer he stand out among the dozens of world leaders who issued statements about this situation by not responding? :wenger: Are you quite sure you grasp the concept of diplomacy?
 
Alex said:
How come he never made a Forbes list then?
Click to expand...

It's only been confirmed today that his fortune is at $75billion, and something tells me he didn't earn all that by selling shares.

Alot of the money goes straight to funding his secret police and armed thugs, hence why you've seen the photos of "Made in USA" weaponry:

ht_tear_gas_made_usa_110127_wmain.jpg


Point is none of that $1.5billion goes towards the people themselves, as evident by the fact that 40% of them live in poverty. So to suggest that the US was 'supporting' the Egyptian people is tad bit deceitful don't you think?
 
RedKaos said:
It's only been confirmed today that his fortune is at $75billion, and something tells me he didn't earn all that by selling shares.

Alot of the money goes straight to funding his secret police and armed thugs, hence why you've seen the photos of "Made in USA" weaponry:

ht_tear_gas_made_usa_110127_wmain.jpg


Point is none of that $1.5billion goes towards the people themselves, as evident by the fact that 40% of them live in poverty. So to suggest that the US was 'supporting' the Egyptian people is tad bit deceitful don't you think?
Click to expand...

Its Egypt fault for not rising up sooner. As for the money, I don't think the Egyptian people deserve a cent of it in fairness but neither here nor there.


I hope hosni buys united fecking a we will be able to buy messi and ronaldo
 
Excal said:
Then you'd prefer he stand out among the dozens of world leaders who issued statements about this situation by not responding? :wenger: Are you quite sure you grasp the concept of diplomacy?
Click to expand...

He was of course welcome to give a quick "congratulations and good luck" like the rest of the world leaders but the whole "The US has always been a good friend of the Egyptian people...will continue to support them..etc etc" was a little disingenuous don't you think?

When I meant kept his mouth shut I obviously didn't mean literally, otherwise I would have quoted his whole speech :lol:
 
Alex said:
Its Egypt fault for not rising up sooner. As for the money, I don't think the Egyptian people deserve a cent of it in fairness but neither here nor there.


I hope hosni buys united fecking a we will be able to buy messi and ronaldo
Click to expand...

Are you drunk Alex?
 
Sultan said:
Are you drunk Alex?
Click to expand...

No I am just against the US foreign policy of buying people(s). It's a big issue for us a nation to cut spending, and since foreign aid isn't really foreign aid I don't think we should e doing it. As redkaos said his fortune is 75 billion that is ridiculous and it is thanks to us
 
RedKaos said:
He was of course welcome to give a quick "congratulations and good luck" like the rest of the world leaders but the whole "The US has always been a good friend of the Egyptian people...will continue to support them..etc etc" was a little disingenuous don't you think?
Click to expand...

Hey, tens of billions over the years oughta buy us the right to fib a bit.

Seriously, it's diplomaspeak. It means little enough and saves us a bit of face while still unreservedly praising the Egyptian people and what they've done. Let it go.
 
All of what we are seeing here was started by one man: Mohammed Bouaziz.

He was a street vendor from Tunisia who had to quit school to work full time. He applied to join the army but was subsequent*ly refused. He supported his mother, uncle, siblings and one sister's tuition fee for university*.

Since he was a child, he was targeted by the authoritie*s who refused to allow him to have even a wheelbarro*w to carry produce. As he was running on debt, he wasn't able to bribe the police officials who demanded he have a license for his vendor even though the law didn't require one. As a result, his fruit and vegetable cart was kicked away and he was subsequent*ly beaten and humiliated in public.

He then doused himself in gasoline and set himself on fire.

He was 26 years old.
 
Red Dreams said:
surely they can get the money back from him.

Just make him an offer he cannot refuse.

sure he loves his wife and children. ;)
Click to expand...

What a way to bring in the new reign.

Apparently he does care about the money quite deeply, as that is probably why this has been so carried out
 
Sultan said:
I really think the USA were in a difficult position. It's difficult to speak either way just in case the demonstrations failed. In diplomatic language I thought they made their preference quite clear.
Click to expand...

Spare the initial comment by Joe Biden at the beginning of the protests, the US did a pretty good job of communicating. It was Obama's polite nudging of Mubarak and probably a lot of back channel diplomacy that made Mubarak realize the US wouldn't have his back this time, and that it was a good idea to capitulate to the will of the people. Had Obama come out strongly in support of Mubarak, you can bet the house that he would still be in power.
 
Raoul said:
Spare the initial comment by Joe Biden at the beginning of the protests, the US did a pretty good job of communicating. It was Obama's polite nudging of Mubarak and probably a lot of back channel diplomacy that made Mubarak realize the US wouldn't have his back this time, and that it was a good idea to capitulate to the will of the people. Had Obama come out strongly in support of Mubarak, you can bet the house that he would still be in power.
Click to expand...

Yup, other than Joe putting his foot in his mouth AGAIN, it was handled pretty well, including the little flip-flop early on in the week. You can't really blame the administration, they had to be sure that the military wasn't going to get his back, before saying begone with you.

To be honest, I think the real opportunity for acclaim and blame as far as the US is concerned will be the next couple of months. How it helps to shape the potential changes will have a big say in how successful this revolution/uprising will be judged in the future.
 
Raoul said:
Spare the initial comment by Joe Biden at the beginning of the protests, the US did a pretty good job of communicating. It was Obama's polite nudging of Mubarak and probably a lot of back channel diplomacy that made Mubarak realize the US wouldn't have his back this time, and that it was a good idea to capitulate to the will of the people. Had Obama come out strongly in support of Mubarak, you can bet the house that he would still be in power.
Click to expand...

And that that big square in Cairo would be empty, the US literally did nothing wrong during this entire coup. Sure you pick flaws in what Obama said or what not, but I, not an Obama fan, thought he did reasonably well. Hopefully we arent allowing some extremist government to come in, not that I believe that is a likely scenario in Egypt, but I didnt mind the laissez-faire attitude towards the whole thing to some extent. Let go on in Egypt, what goes on in Egypt, I say.
 
RedKaos said:
:confused: The question put forward to the American people was simple enough: "Do you support the protesters right to demand democracy and removal of the dictator Hosni Mubarak". They aren't been asked to give their opinions on the latest particle physics phenomenons. Regardless 82% agreed, Obama didn't.



Look, I wasn't expecting him to denounce Mubarak since I recognise he was a key ally of the US. But for crying out loud if you're going to stay quiet in the beginning then stay quiet now. It's horribly perfidious for Obama to break his silence claiming that they were always looking out for their interests AFTER the Egyptians had bled to oust Mubarak.



None of these other world leaders have annually donated $1.5billion to his tyrannous regime and have helped him consolidate his power for 3 decades.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to grasp the concepts of diplomacy and strategic communications. Obama quite rightly didn't come out in support of a Revolution in Egypt in the early days of the protests because Egypt, for better or worse is an ally. He then quite rightly began to gradually incorporate the ideals of what the protesters were seeking in his talking points, because at the end of the day, what the protesters want wasn't divergent from US ideals of Democracy. He didn't have the luxury of spastically siding with the protesters in the opening days because had the protests fizzled out, the US would have completely alienated the Egyptian Government. Conversely, had he continued to deny the aspirations of the protesters to the bitter end, he would have alienated the US from any future Egyptian Government. He was right to gradually transition the arc of his message from cautiously pro-Mubarak in the beginning to pro-the will of the people in the end. He was nearly flawless in this regard.
 
That's not it at all. The truth is, the US had absolutely no idea what to do and did not anticipate protests of this magnitude to ever occur in Egypt. They, like Mubarak, were hoping that pockets of democratic reform would ease the tension. Then, they began seeing some glimmer of reality and hoped their 'man' Omar Suleiman might retain power in the post-Mubarak vacuum. That's obviously not going to happen, either.

In any case, the US does not intend to allow Egypt to transition towards a democratic state.
 
maldini said:
That's not it at all. The truth is, the US had absolutely no idea what to do and did not anticipate protests of this magnitude to ever occur in Egypt. They, like Mubarak, were hoping that pockets of democratic reform would ease the tension. Then, they began seeing some glimmer of reality and hoped their 'man' Omar Suleiman might retain power in the post-Mubarak vacuum. That's obviously not going to happen, either.

In any case, the US does not intend to allow Egypt to transition towards a democratic state.
Click to expand...


I don't think anyone is arguing against your 1st paragraph, these protests were a shock to everyone, so not surprising that the US administration took a few days to figure out what was going on.

Hell, a state apparatus that had millions of personnel couldn't see this coming...Mubarak has every right to feel let down by Suleiman, his intelligence chief :lol::lol:

Just think what State media started doing this week....blaming outside influences, calling the protesters foreign infiltrators, right from Hamas, Iran, Israel to even US...ahaha The same US that has propped up the regime for decades.

As for the US not allowing Egypt to become a fully democratic nation, probably true, if that democracy means the Muslim Brotherhood are the lead actors...that's just the reality of the world. Everyone has to look out for No.1, so if the Egyptian people don't want to be 'managed', they will have to continue to fight for it in the future.
 
maldini said:
That's not it at all. The truth is, the US had absolutely no idea what to do and did not anticipate protests of this magnitude to ever occur in Egypt. They, like Mubarak, were hoping that pockets of democratic reform would ease the tension. Then, they began seeing some glimmer of reality and hoped their 'man' Omar Suleiman might retain power in the post-Mubarak vacuum. That's obviously not going to happen, either.

In any case, the US does not intend to allow Egypt to transition towards a democratic state.
Click to expand...

There's nothing the US had to do other than make statements about the events, just as other leaders did. The only thing that was to be avoided was the potential chaos of changing Governments, which looks to have been avoided until now. The US, therefore, have come out of this quite tidily. Next stop, Iran.
 
Raoul said:
There's nothing the US had to do other than make statements about the events, just as other leaders did. The only thing that was to be avoided was the potential chaos of changing Governments, which looks to have been avoided until now. The US, therefore, have come out of this quite tidily. Next stop, Iran.
Click to expand...

They'll be nothing tidy about Iran, that really is going to be messy. I think there is a significant number of people, who genuinely do wish to live as they are currently, and will fight tooth and nail to make sure that continues.

Where do you think Syria falls in all of this? Not a real military threat, but it definitely has a role to play in the region, what with Lebanon and the shenanigans that have gone on there over the years.

I've seen some media outlets mention, Libya, but for me that's a non-starter. Gaddafi is a lot more palatable to the west now, and his own people seem 'happy enough'.
 
You just wait, the US wont give up their influence in Egypt so easely. They'll find a yes man/men who they'll support, publicly or not, for power and give as much positive, both regional and worldwide, publicity as is possible. The muslim brotherhood and anyone else they dont see fit will get so much negative attention in the coming months they'll end up outkast in Egypt, and worldwide. Unless of course they dont just let the military reign on. Anyway, 6 months or 12, whatever they're planing, will be difficult to organize a trustworthy campaign for anyone. /doom mongering
 
BTV_is_neutral said:
They'll be nothing tidy about Iran, that really is going to be messy. I think there is a significant number of people, who genuinely do wish to live as they are currently, and will fight tooth and nail to make sure that continues.

Where do you think Syria falls in all of this? Not a real military threat, but it definitely has a role to play in the region, what with Lebanon and the shenanigans that have gone on there over the years.

I've seen some media outlets mention, Libya, but for me that's a non-starter. Gaddafi is a lot more palatable to the west now, and his own people seem 'happy enough'.
Click to expand...

Its going to be a mess in certain countries and probably less so in others. The broad message following Egypt and Tunisia, is that Autocratic systems are eroded when their publics have access to unpropagandized information from the outside. Government's can't suppress the ideals being fueled by the net, social media, and satellite TV, so its just a matter of time before theocratic dictatorships such as Iran, Absolute Monarchies such as Saudi, and authoritarian leaders such as in Syria, either capitulate to internal reform (which is just another path towards peaceful pro-democratic regime change) or risk being deposed in popular uprisings.
 
I'm in the Raoul school of thought over the US' handling of Egypt's situation and any likely events in the Middle East.
 
maldini said:
That's not it at all. The truth is, the US had absolutely no idea what to do and did not anticipate protests of this magnitude to ever occur in Egypt. They, like Mubarak, were hoping that pockets of democratic reform would ease the tension. Then, they began seeing some glimmer of reality and hoped their 'man' Omar Suleiman might retain power in the post-Mubarak vacuum. That's obviously not going to happen, either.

In any case, the US does not intend to allow Egypt to transition towards a democratic state.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding what was the US supposed to do? Send Team America over? Hell we probably would have but we are broke, regardless I am glad and am pleasantly pleased with Obama's lack of intervention
 
Egyptian defense chief unknown in West, derided at home - CNN.com
U.S. Embassy cables released by WikiLeaks contain multiple references to Tantawi, his relationship with Mubarak and they way he is viewed by other Egyptian military officials.

One cable described him as "frozen in the Camp David paradigm and uncomfortable with our shift to the post-9/11 global war on terror." Another quoted an unnamed Egyptian officer, who joked that Tantawi "looks like a bureaucrat."

That cable went on to say he is openly mocked at clubs in Cairo where midlevel officers gather. The cable claimed these officers mock him openly as "incompetent" and as "Mubarak's poodle." The officers also say that Tantawi's unwavering loyalty to Mubarak is "running the military into the ground," according to the cable.

Most significant for the hopes of democratic-reform advocates in Egypt, the cables say that Tantawi has always supported the centralization of power in Egypt.

One cable says he has become "increasingly intolerant of intellectual freedom." Another goes into greater detail on his position.

"Tantawi has opposed both economic and political reforms that he perceives as eroding central government power," according to the cable. "He is supremely concerned with national unity, and has opposed policy initiatives he views as encouraging political or religious cleavages with Egyptian society."

He has revealed a willingness to use the military to control political groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, the cables say, and opposes economic reform because it reduces the Egyptian government's control over prices and production.

That cable's final assessment of Tantawi warned diplomats to "be prepared to meet an aged and change-resistant Tantawi. ... He and Mubarak are focused on regime stability and maintaining the status quo through the end of their time. They simply do not have the energy, inclination or world view to do anything differently."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.