From the descriptions some sort of meteor impact or Volcano.
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
From the descriptions some sort of meteor impact or Volcano.
I don't actually think the Sansa scene was deserving of all the controversy it's received from outlets on Twitter and the media. I mean yeah it was pretty horrible but I wouldn't put it above several other scenes that the show has put on so far. Maybe I'm a little desensitised as I know what Jeyne went through in the books which doesn't come close to that, but it doesn't seem deserving of all the hate and criticism? I'm seeing so many people saying they're not watching the show any more, threatening to protest, complaints etc etc. Not quite understanding it.
Could be yeah, but I still think the Iron Islands would've been cool. The non-book readers were over the moon with the introduction of the Red Viper last year, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind some new intriguing and rough characters like Euron and Victarion. Personally, I'd love to see the Kingsmoot ceremony and them raiding the Shield Islands and stuff.
The dialogues are certainly a problem this season but that's also caused by a lack of interesting persons in the right position: Tyrion is captured by a man who doesn't like to talk much, Varys seems to be gone and Littlefinger was occupied with Sansa. I still enjoyed the dialogue between Cersei and Littlefinger for example. I just hope they know what they're doing and the last four episodes will make it all worth it.
The Jaime stuff could go either given it might be touch to adapt but one would think the Iron Islands stuff is pretty much made for TV no?
Yea someone wants Tyrion to return with a dragon and hunt down Tywin instead of killing him like he did.
Watch some cartoons or something.
Cercei never had a spy network, I always got the feeling she took info from Littlefinger and the Spider and figured the truth lay in the middle somewhere. Even if she did have her own spies, they wouldn't be operating in the north as everyone there seems to hate her.
Since the spider is gone now she's kinda leaning on Littlefinger a bit more so he thinks he can get away with it, I doubt he'd have been as overt were the spider still around. He wasn't summoned to Kings Landing until after he was already in Winterfell, I doubt the distance from either to King's Landing is all that different (which with Tv magic within one episode is fine).
That necromancer dude is the new master of whispers.
He should (possibly does) know.
Im guessing they just didn't think it through. GRRM spent 5 years figuring out little things like that, I doubt they're bothered being as careful with their version.
Incidentally i agree that its not syncing well. Goes for Lady Ollenas and Loras' reaction to the trial and the slightly contradictory treatment of Sansa's storyline / character.
Its hard to sell her as a strong, clever and increasingly powerful woman when shes been shoehorned into Jeyne Pooles storyline.
Its a bit of a clusterfeck imo.
He should (possibly does) know.
Im guessing they just didn't think it through. GRRM spent 5 years figuring out little things like that, I doubt they're bothered being as careful with their version.
Incidentally i agree that its not syncing well. Goes for Lady Ollenas and Loras' reaction to the trial and the slightly contradictory treatment of Sansa's storyline / character.
Its hard to sell her as a strong, clever and increasingly powerful woman when shes been shoehorned into Jeyne Pooles storyline.
Its a bit of a clusterfeck imo.
It really is. The timeline doesn't fit, at all. It's not a big issue for me though. The show's got much bigger problems than that.
Everyone has some spies. Spying who goes to and from Winterfell is easy since everyone goes the same route. In the books she obviously couldn't keep tabs but in the show Littlefinger leaves his "comfort" zone. You don't even need to have spies. News travel fast and a lot of people saw him come and go. Bothered me, the bookwatcher, because of all the spytalk that's in the books.
Did people expect Sansa's wedding night to be romantic?
A good woman can change a man.
No,
I dont think an intelligent, powerful Sansa would go to Winterfell in the first place, let alone marry him. No idea what she has to gain from the whole thing.
Still just a pawn and a punch bag, it undermines her character arc as a growing force in westeros.
Unless that was the plan in the first place.
She had no idea as to how evil Ramsay was, though. Littlefinger managed to largely coax her into it, and she had grown to trust him unfortunately.
Yeah, it's not as if she had it as bad as Jaime. I mean, he had to act with the Sand Snakes.
Part of her character arc in the books was her growing willingness to doubt and challenge the people who claimed to be helping her, most notably Littlefinger. The events of the series can't really be squared with the Sansa of the books, her intended plot arc has been sacrificed.
Perhaps, although she was initially very hesitant of going back to Winterfell if I remember correctly. Plus, even if she'd doubted him, she didn't really have much of a choice. The only place where she'd be even remotely safe would be at the Wall with Jon, and even then, safe is a very subjective word.
His family killed her mother and brother in the most taboo manner possible. Saying 'screw that' and going to the wall seems a pretty good alternative to me tbh.
Littlefinger not being aware of how fecked up Ramsey is seemed pretty weird to me too tbh, he isn't exactly subtle - seems a pretty big oversight to not bother looking into the guy when hes a damn big part of his plan.
I just find the actions of a few characters at odds with their personality.
Anyway ... lets see how they all react now that the dust has settled a bit, hopefully the writers finish out the season on a strong foot.
Marjorie and Loren, for feck's sake They're not even trying anymore over there.
They're not even trying anymore over there.Despite it being written a hundred times in that thread I can understand him giving up and opting for Marjorie. Loren is completely different though, really
Ya, I echo this. I don't really get it, since from a legal perspective, even by standards of today it wasn't rape. Yes, it was horrible, yes I highly doubt Sansa enjoyed it. As I understand rape, it is either forced physically, or coerced through direct or intimated threats. I suppose you could maybe argue that it was an intimated threat, via Ramsey's history, but does Sansa really know that history other than he tortured Theon?
On top of that, this is the point people are like "Oh well that's it, enough is enough!". So the beheadings of good people, the murder of a pregnant woman with repeated and graphic stabs to the belly, the other rapes, the murder AND rape of prostitutes by good ole Joff, the dragons tearing dudes apart, burning little girls, eating babies. The dude who rapes his 300 daughters on the regular and murdered their sons. I mean, we're just scratching the surface of the morally reprehensible shit that this show depicts.
I guess it's a reflection of humanity in general then? Nobody gives a shit about anything else unless they are directly vested in it. Nobody cares about those prossies, nobody cares about Crasters daughters. Sansa though, she was "ours" I guess? That is the only real way I can understand the outrage of this over everything else. Anyways, ya, I don't really see how it can be construed as rape when he didn't force her or threaten her? Maybe I missed something? It seemed to me like she knew she was going to sleep with him, and she knew it was going to suck, she even intimated this fact to Littlefinger "the next time you see me I'll be married" aka I won't be a virgin. So ya, she knew all of this, was accepting of it, didn't like it, and Ramsay sure made it worse. But Rape? Can someone enlighten me if I missed something glaring!
Does it matter if its 'technically' rape
It was unpleasant whatever you want to call it.
You probably have a point about people not giving a shit unless invested. Or maybe it was just the straw that broke the camels back.
Are we really having this discussion? It was rape. Full stop.
Are we really having this discussion? It was rape. Full stop.
I think it does matter, people crying about it and taking their ball and going home over this scene, should at least be honest about what it was. Obviously it's a hot button issue. I'm not trying to diminish rape, but I think calling something that isn't actually rape, diminishes ACTUAL rape by trivializing the encounter. Ask a women who has actually had a man force her physically into sex if she thinks someone getting drunk and deciding she made an error the night before thinks that girl was raped.
Was Sansa raped? Did Ramsay have sex with her against her will? I think it's pretty clear it wasn't against her will. She allowed it to happen. The question we should be asking is, has Sansa under estimated Ramsay? Sansa was holding power through all of this. She consented to legitimize the Boltons by accepting the marriage. As a means to her own ends of course. Her very deliberate pause during the vows, again, demonstrating her power. So they go the bedroom, where Sansa clearly knows she is about to consummate this marriage with Ramsay. What happens? Ramsay shows her what a complete maniac he is. So I ask, did he take her power away, or is she doing as Cersei told her, to use what she has to control the men that will come into her life.
Rape? I don't think so. Ugly? Yes. Horrible? Yes. To call it rape trivializes actual rape, and trivializes the game Sansa is playing right now. That's my take on it anyways. Please explain how it is "rape. Full stop." akash, I'd like to actually see your opinion and thought process on why it was rape when it doesn't (again maybe I missed something in the scene) have direct force or implied or direct coercion via threats.
@Nucks
Did Sansa want to marry Ramsay? No. She was forced to marry him by Littlefinger or manipulated if you will.
Did Sansa want to have sex with Ramsay? No, she quite blatantly did not.
Could Sansa have refused to have sex with Ramsay? Again, no.
Did Sansa at any point have a choice in any of it? No.
So was it rape? Yes, it fecking was.
And no, Sansa has no power at all in any of this. She is LF's pawn and then the Bolton's pawn. All the Bolton's need from her is her name to stabilize their immediate rule not legitimize themselves. As soon as he gets an heir she'll be popped off.
Did Sansa want to marry Ramsay? No. She was forced to marry him by Littlefinger or manipulated if you will.
Did Sansa want to have sex with Ramsay? No, she quite blatantly did not.
Could Sansa have refused to have sex with Ramsay? Again, no.
Did Sansa at any point have a choice in any of it? No.
So was it rape? Yes, it fecking was.
And no, Sansa has no power at all in any of this. She is LF's pawn and then the Bolton's pawn. All the Bolton's need from her is her name to stabilize their immediate rule not legitimize themselves. As soon as he gets an heir she'll be popped off.
This is where we differ I guess. You think she is a passive player in the game unfolding right now. I think she has been an active player since the Aerie. Yes Littlefinger is using her and yes he blind sided her and yes he is manipulating her. However, she IMO IS playing the game. She is no longer the victim. LF said they could turn around at Moat Cailin. She opted to take control of her destiny.
Did she want to have sex with Ramsay? Of course not, but she saw it as a necessary evil. We can look at the education of Sansa under the "caring" tutelage of Cersei in perhaps one of her more tender moments if in her completely blunt and pragmatic manner. Cersei said the power women have is between their legs and that is how women can project their own power over men. Whether or not you think that is completely fecked up, true, sadly true or completely wrong, that is the world Martin painted and the one Cersei believes and the one Cersei told Sansa about. Did she want to have sex with him? No, was she going to as a means to an end? Obviously.
Could she have refused? I don't know, this is probably as close to rape from a legal point of view as it gets, but it's a complicated situation. This is a political transaction. Could she have refused? That isn't the question to ask. It's would she have refused? The answer is no, and not because she feared for her life, or because of implied threats or violence, if she refuses, she loses her political capital. Not to mention the Boltons, even Ramsay can't actually do anything to her, not yet anyways. If Sansa was harmed the Bolton's would have the north turn on them just like that. The moment she decided to go to winterfel, she was deciding to sleep with Ramsay. The decision was made at Moat Cailin, and the realization of HER decision was made then or shortly after she decided.
Yes she has a choice in it. She could have turned around before they got to Winterfel. Believe what you want about LF, but he genuinely loves Sansa in a completely inappropriate pedo way. LF's game here, is to sit Sansa on winterfel, to sit in the Aerie himself, and then to take the Ironthrone. That is what LF is playing. He says it himself, nobody could withstand the Aerie and the North. Could she have turned around? Yes. Would LF have convinced her to go? Yes. Is that freewill? I don't know, but the decision was ultimately hers.
You're expanding in irrelevant places. Motive for grand plans are moot, at that particular period, it was rape.
Not rape!? She clearly didn't want to have sex with him but knew better than to resist as the guy is clearly a maniac who probably would have made it even worse.
She clearly didn't want to have sex with him but knew better than to resist as the guy is clearly a maniac who probably would have made it even worse.Jesus, stop being a knob. It was rape, plain and simple, clear as day rape. Can't even believe there's a fecking discussion.
Every other sex scene is rape.
I'd like to apologies for disagreeing so vehemently with @Stretford End Phil yesterday about Mad Men, at least he had a clear and reasonable point of view and could justify it in his own way, as much as I disagreed. However, to say that was not a rape on GOT last week is surely just being argumentative for the sake of it?!
Very obviously rape, at least by normal people standards.
Mind you, it probably doesn't quite count as that within the story though given that women are basically a commodity in GOT world. They don't really have a choice in who they marry and nobody is really going to really care about how nice their husband is to them. I mean the whole bedding ceremony thing is dodge as feck as well....
Mind you, it probably doesn't quite count as that within the story though given that women are basically a commodity in GOT world. They don't really have a choice in who they marry and nobody is really going to really care about how nice their husband is to them. I mean the whole bedding ceremony thing is dodge as feck as well....
You do realise Reek/theon was in the room right? The guy who Sansa and the rest of westeros thinks killed her two younger brothers. In Westeros power is everything so when your only options are agree to unpleasant and sometimes torturous sex with your husband or strangers for fear of worse consequences then it's rape.
The outrage is not because horrific shit happens, like you said it happens all the time on the show or in the books. The outrage as I saw it was that what happened made Sansa once again a powerless helpless victim. Her arc with littlefinger was supposed to have a purpose, she was learning the game so to speak. The shortcuts the show chooses to use, makes character motivations a bit muddy. If Sansa was really Littlefingers pedo crush and Cat replacement why would he get her to marry the most sadistic guy he could find. I don't think book LF would have done that because it conflicts with his end game and motivations. So my outrage is more at bad storytelling and taking shortcuts than OMG bad stuff happened to pretty innocent Sansa ( I agree there is some of this in the outrage but i don't speak for nutters)
Been avoiding the show from this season on until the next book is released. Who was involved in this rape scene that has inflamed the internet?
Brienne and Pod.
What in the actual? Yeah I'm glad now I'm watching this season later and not week by week now.
lol brilliant.
They should definitely put that in the book
(sorry thats probably pretty insensitive)
They should definitely put that in the book
(sorry thats probably pretty insensitive)