Abortion

The problem though is that it still happens, whether it is outlawed or not. This is something men seem to struggle to understand unfortunately, even while we pass laws (religious and civil) banning abortion and I imagine in huge part because we don't have to do anything even remotely like that in our lives.

8% of all maternal deaths worldwide are caused by abortion. Over 99% of those deaths are due to unsafe abortions. A lot of women will find a way anyway.

Unfortunately, because of laws we pass, sometimes that way involves back alley medications or a coat hanger. So follows massive and uncontrolled bleeding, tetanus and other infections, often in settings in which they either have no access or may be denied access to healthcare for what they've just done. So follows death, completely and utterly avoidable and a tragic story. Or the pregnancy is followed through, the child may be left on the street or shunned from society.

I mean let's take Egypt as an example. I know you're from there and you know my wife is half Egyptian and grew up mostly there. One of her friends is probably one of the nicest and most noble people I have ever met in my life and works with street kids in Egypt, a thankless job for a widely stigmatised group. My in-laws are disgusted by them and disgusted when I give them money or buy them food or a drink. What Nelly tells me is that a huge portion of these kids (this is a few years ago now, may well have changed) are born out of wedlock. What this means (again, may have changed by now in Egypt) is that it is very difficult for these kids to get valid birth certificates, to get national id cards. It is very difficult for them to register for schooling or be able to go and access even the often poor public healthcare system.

So these children are born, through no fault of their own. And they're pretty much locked into a life on the street, outside of the normal system, with no education, housing, healthcare or dignity. Really no identity. Many of them end up in prison, often just because the police are bored and many of them will perpetuate the cycle because they will end up having kids out of wedlock (how can you get married officially if you don't exist as a real person) and so the cycle continues.

Am I say we should abort all streetkids? Of course not. However, we've created the circumstances in this instance where abortion is banned because of the sanctity of human life, only to then force those babies to lead a life on the street and without any shred of human dignity, for factors completely and utterly out of their control.

That seems neither fair nor moral to me.

Good post that. I remember I had listened to a similar discussion between a Gynecologicist and a student about letting a baby with difficult status of life later on live or abort the case, and he was firmly in the idea that surgeon is responsible for the life of mother and fetus not how will it end up being and no one will care of them more then God himself that if God thinks life would have been so difficult for the baby, it would have ended in a spontaneous abortion. A medically ethic and a religious view which many won't agree to I'm sure.

It's definitely complicated situation with several perspective to it and I don't blame those on its side. Street children have been a major problem here for ages and government has failed to solve it despite some tries previously. Yeah the problem is many of them are mostly product of un marriage sex and got thrown to street for the mother to make people not know about her scandal and other terrible reasons.
 
Sorry, forgot one more thing.

I sometimes struggle with the glib attitude people take to women seeking abortion. They are sometimes painted as irresponsible, just turning up at the abortion clinic with no care in the world to have their 4th abortion done and whatnot.

Undoubtedly some women are like this and use abortion as a birth control method. This is a small minority though. For most women, it is a huge decision, one they do not take lightly. An abortion clinic is a horrible place for everyone involved. Nobody is there, cheering or laughing away. Most of these women have really thought long and hard about this, feel guilty, are struggling and will most likely carry this decision with them for the rest of their lives.

Its not easy and its not simple.

I volunteered on the street during the referendum here and had the odd person come up to me and say things like that. But the stats of Irish women travelling to the UK showed the vast majority of women were in the mid to late thirties and already had kids. 6 were under 15, if I recall correctly.
 
I'm in Ireland. Do you know about the referendum we had only last year?

"For no reason" is my massive problem with your arguments. There is always a reason and the page that has those stories I shared will tell you thousands of reasons.

Mate, bringing example for women who had reasons doesn't mean everyone of them had reason. I ensure you many people has an only reason of not wanting a baby because of a simple congenital anomaly or because she had un marriage sex and wanted to cover for the scandal. Yes even women had dark side you know. Not everyone is innocent or getting rapped or not fit medically for pregnancy.
 
I think this sentence is particularly telling and a huge part of the issue we have with pregnancy and the abortion debate.

Leaving aside the problematic (in my opinion) approach of blaming women for having sex, a pregnancy is not her own problem. She didn't have sex by herself, there was a man involved somewhere, with a penis and semen. It should be both her and the man's problem. Yet it so rarely is.

50% of that 'problem' is genetically his yet the reality is society rarely sees it that way. They don't blame the man for getting pregnant (even though in many settings, due to a power imbalance, it is the man who decides whether contraception is used or not). So in countries where abortion is banned, often countries in which men hold significantly more power than women, he gets her pregnant, runs away, has nothing to do with the situation and the woman is blamed, the woman is forced to raise a child she does not want and is forced to change her entire life around 1 encounter, while he runs off, washing his hands of the situation.

I'm talking about un marriage sex with a play boy which you know strictly and religiously prohibited here. Woman getting pregnant in this case want to cover for the scandal by having a criminal abortion and ends up doing it in an underworld clinic or something. No respected obstetric surgeon will accept to do this abortion. We are not talking about getting rapped but she had her full will agreeing on such sex.

Of course I know this isn't a problem in Europe and USA where having children before marriage is even ordinary, but you know here it's a different story.
 
And as I said if the life for the parents was that difficult from the start, contraception and not getting pregnant to start with should be the rule not abortion imo.
:wenger: Are you suggesting someone has abortion as their go to contraception? Incredible.

My girlfriend and I have had tens of condoms break on us. We've been using condoms to avoid her getting pregnant as we're not ready to have kids. Is it still our fault if she gets pregnant even though we've been using protection?
 
Good post that. I remember I had listened to a similar discussion between a Gynecologicist and a student about letting a baby with difficult status of life later on live or abort the case, and he was firmly in the idea that surgeon is responsible for the life of mother and fetus not how will it end up being and no one will care of them more then God himself that if God thinks life would have been so difficult for the baby, it would have ended in a spontaneous abortion. A medically ethic and a religious view which many won't agree to I'm sure.

It's definitely complicated situation with several perspective to it and I don't blame those on its side. Street children have been a major problem here for ages and government has failed to solve it despite some tries previously. Yeah the problem is many of them are mostly product of un marriage sex and got thrown to street for the mother to make people not know about her scandal and other terrible reasons.

You see this is where the problem is. In a professional environment a doctor / surgeon is duty bound to be unbiased in these situations. In the US they’re now looking to allow doctors, physicians and pharmacists refuse treatments on their own personal morality, including the refusal of morning after pills and other forms of contraception.

In any other environment that would be considered prejudicial and would be banned.

Medical professionals are duty bound to put the interests of their patient, the mother, as priority. Anything else is a dereliction of their duties.
 
:wenger: Are you suggesting someone has abortion as their go to contraception? Incredible.

My girlfriend and I have had tens of condoms break on us. We've been using condoms to avoid her getting pregnant as we're not ready to have kids. Is it still our fault if she gets pregnant even though we've been using protection?

Umm, contraceptive pills?
 
Mate, bringing example for women who had reasons doesn't mean everyone of them had reason. I ensure you many people has an only reason of not wanting a baby because of a simple congenital anomaly or because she had un marriage sex and wanted to cover for the scandal. Yes even women had dark side you know. Not everyone is innocent or getting rapped or not fit medically for pregnancy.

Do you really ensure me that? How can you know that? Prove it.
 
:wenger: Are you suggesting someone has abortion as their go to contraception? Incredible.

My girlfriend and I have had tens of condoms break on us. We've been using condoms to avoid her getting pregnant as we're not ready to have kids. Is it still our fault if she gets pregnant even though we've been using protection?

In one of the stories I posted, a woman talked about how she used three types of contraception at the same time and all failed.

I'd love to know if he's read it yet.
 
You see this is where the problem is. In a professional environment a doctor / surgeon is duty bound to be unbiased in these situations. In the US they’re now looking to allow doctors, physicians and pharmacists refuse treatments on their own personal morality, including the refusal of morning after pills and other forms of contraception.

In any other environment that would be considered prejudicial and would be banned.

Medical professionals are duty bound to put the interests of their patient, the mother, as priority. Anything else is a dereliction of their duties.

The doctor is also responsible for the fetus as well as for the mother though. His duty is to ensure both the mother and the fetus survive as much as possible.

It's a complicated situation.

Also doctors agreeing blindly to any patient requests will open the door for many illegal practice that may be harm the patient himself medically wise. Full freedom isn't right IMHO.
 
I'm talking about un marriage sex with a play boy which you know strictly and religiously prohibited here. Woman getting pregnant in this case want to cover for the scandal by having a criminal abortion and ends up doing it in an underworld clinic or something. No respected obstetric surgeon will accept to do this abortion. We are not talking about getting rapped but she had her full will agreeing on such sex.

Of course I know this isn't a problem in Europe and USA where having children before marriage is even ordinary, but you know here it's a different story.

You're exactly the kind of person I was talking about. Until it happens to someone in your own life, you're happy to believe no-one ever has a reason.
 
There are countless stories on that page I shared where women were coerced into sex by shitty men who then basically tell them "All yours, deal with it" and feck off. Literally four or five words to the woman and never seen or heard from again.

How moral is that, I wonder?

Yep, its pretty sickening how much men get away with in these situations.

I volunteered on the street during the referendum here and had the odd person come up to me and say things like that. But the stats of Irish women travelling to the UK showed the vast majority of women were in the mid to late thirties and already had kids. 6 were under 15, if I recall correctly.

I'm not surprised. Like I said, I think abortion clinics are a very different place to what some people assume.
 
Do you really ensure me that? How can you know that? Prove it.

You are telling me I'm naive then literally believing all women ae great characters that want abortion is because of strong reasons isn't being naive? Not all humans beings are great and nice buddy.

And the scenarios I mentioned are pretty common here. We are underdeveloped country so dark stories like these are common here.
 
Umm, contraceptive pills?
My girlfriend doesn't like those very much. fecks with her health.

But what about that suggestion of yours that people use abortion as their default contraceptive?
 
You are telling me I'm naive then literally believing all women ae great characters that want abortion is because of strong reasons isn't being naive? Not all humans beings are great and nice buddy.

And the scenarios I mentioned are pretty common here. We are underdeveloped country so dark stories like these are common here.

So... I've shared a page where thousands of women have told their stories in great detail, their reasons, their pain and suffering and guilt and how incredibly hard of a decision AND a process it was to go through.

You've got... "Believe me mate, women are dodgy".
 
You are telling me I'm naive then literally believing all women ae great characters that want abortion is because of strong reasons isn't being naive? Not all humans beings are great and nice buddy.
You're literally going "you shouldn't think people in general have good reasons for making a life changing decision, but don't tell me I can't think people in general do it on a whim and are bad people as well".
 
My girlfriend doesn't like those very much. fecks with her health.

But what about that suggestion of yours that people use abortion as their default contraceptive?

Was talking about people having a difficult life and don't want a baby for financial burden. If their life is that difficult there are loads of ways they can go through to not get pregnant to start with.

I don't get what you are talking about.
 
Was talking about people having a difficult life and don't want a baby for financial burden. If their life is that difficult there are loads of ways they can go through to not get pregnant to start with.

I don't get what you are talking about.
I'm telling you people actually do that but some end up getting pregnant anyway. So what more can you do?
 
You're literally going "you shouldn't think people in general have good reasons for making a life changing decision, but don't tell me I can't think people in general do it on a whim and are bad people as well".

Nope. I'm saying that some have strong reasons for asking for abortion and some want it just to cover for a scandal or because they don't want the baby with no reason.

Generalizing the idea everyone have a reason is as naive as suggesting it should be completely outlawed. Both aren't really my point. My point is abortion simply has its indication and reasons.
 
Nope. I'm saying that some have strong reasons for asking for abortion and some want it just to cover for a scandal or besud they don't want the baby with no reason.
Which of these two groups outnumber the other?
Generalizing the idea everyone have a reason is as naive as suggesting it should be completely outlawed.
Of course everyone has a reason. You may or may not agree with any given reason, but to suggest there's not one to begin with is ridiculous.
 
I'm telling you people actually do that but some end up getting pregnant anyway. So what more can you do?

If their life is that miserable don't have sex then.

Now care to tell us what did the fetus do to not be allowed to born and live in such case? Why are the views restricted to parents only and not the fetus itself?
 
Which of these two groups outnumber the other?

Of course everyone has a reason. You may or may not agree with any given reason, but to suggest there's not one to begin with is ridiculous.

Should it matter for the doctor which outnumber the other or what reason she had to ask for terminate pregnancy?
 
Should it matter for the doctor which outnumber the other or what reason she had to ask for terminate pregnancy?
Bro, you're trying to argue that just having abortion legal is an issue because a"lot of people have bad reasons and women are dodgy". I'm trying to say maybe the good reasons far outnumber the reasons you perceive as bad.
 
Bro, you're trying to argue that just having abortion legal is an issue because a"lot of people have bad reasons and women are dodgy". I'm trying to say maybe the good reasons far outnumber the reasons you perceive as bad.

I'm saying that the doctor should look at the reasons she is bringing and see by himself if this is a strong indication for abortion or not.

Never said it should be fully outlawed. Therapeutic abortion is a respected method of treatment for many conditions to save the mother's life and sometimes the only way.

Not all people are nice to let it fully open and voluntary either though.

It should just has its indications.

Hope it's clear by now.
 
If their life is that miserable don't have sex then.

Now care to tell us what did the fetus do to not be allowed to born and live in such case? Why are the views restricted to parents only and not the fetus itself?
This is such a typically conservative viewpoint. 'Just don't have sex! I never have sex, and now I'm a Republican lawmaker! Follow my example for a great life!'

Not how it works. People will have sex. It's what we do. That's how religious conservatives come to this world, too. You can't just legislate sex away.

The sooner conservatives accept that, the better.
 
This is such a typically conservative viewpoint. 'Just don't have sex! I never have sex, and now I'm a Republican lawmaker! Follow my example for a great life!'

Not how it works. People will have sex. It's what we do. That's how religious conservatives come to this world, too. You can't just legislate sex away.

The sooner conservatives accept that, the better.

If you are having sex you should be fully prepared to have a baby at one point though.
 
Bro, you're trying to argue that just having abortion legal is an issue because a"lot of people have bad reasons and women are dodgy". I'm trying to say maybe the good reasons far outnumber the reasons you perceive as bad.
Even if the good reasons don't outnumber the bad ones, outlawing abortion or leaving it up to the doctor's decision, as el3mel suggests below, screws everyone, regardless of their reasons.

And who the feck gets to decide if something is a good or bad reason anyway?
 
If their life is that miserable don't have sex then.

Now care to tell us what did the fetus do to not be allowed to born and live in such case? Why are the views restricted to parents only and not the fetus itself?

Man, come on. Sex is a part of life, just as breathing, drinking and eating is. A fundamental part of it.

You can't on one hand say 'God will provide', as many poor Egyptians with miserable lives do as they pop out their 5th or 6th kid and then also say if people have miserable lives, don't have sex.

Sex might just help relieve some of the misery of that life. Though I'm not even sure where this misery thing came from in the first place.
 
I'm saying that the doctor should look at the reasons she is bringing and see by himself if this is a strong indication for abortion or not.

Never said it should be fully outlawed. Therapeutic abortion is a respected method of treatment for many conditions to save the mother's life and sometimes the only way.

Not all people are nice to let it fully open and voluntary either though.

It should just has its indications.

Hope it's clear by now.

What if they go to a bad doctor? If there are bad people and dodgy women, then there are also doctors who will make bad decisions.

Or are doctors infallible perfect judges in every situation?
 
Good post that. I remember I had listened to a similar discussion between a Gynecologicist and a student about letting a baby with difficult status of life later on live or abort the case, and he was firmly in the idea that surgeon is responsible for the life of mother and fetus not how will it end up being and no one will care of them more then God himself that if God thinks life would have been so difficult for the baby, it would have ended in a spontaneous abortion. A medically ethic and a religious view which many won't agree to I'm sure.

It's definitely complicated situation with several perspective to it and I don't blame those on its side. Street children have been a major problem here for ages and government has failed to solve it despite some tries previously. Yeah the problem is many of them are mostly product of un marriage sex and got thrown to street for the mother to make people not know about her scandal and other terrible reasons.

Its going to seem like I'm picking on Egypt here but I don't mean to, it is just the country where we have something in common. I've worked with lots of Egyptian Gynaecologists during my early years of rotations and still meet up with quite a few at Egyptian medical events in the UK. They are superb doctors, with lots of knowledge and very highly skilled. Let's just say though that some of them tend to let religion and culture infringe on their views with regards to things like abortion, fgm and hymens, regardless of how skilled they may be otherwise. A surgeon should not be bringing god into the conversation at all. And no, god won't just take care of them himself and this is one of the few things I get annoyed about whenever I'm in Egypt. 'Nobody will look after him/her better than God', as there are literally tens of millions of examples across Egypt and hundreds of millions of examples across the Muslim world of the exact opposite of that happening. One of the street kids Nelly was telling me about was born out of wedlock, had no identity, schooling, access to healthcare. She lived her entire life on the street, with no real family other than other street kids. I'm sure her mum was raped or had sex out of wedlock, like that's something which should condemn multiple people to a horrible life. She would get rounded up by the police at times. She had been raped multiple times, beaten many many times, spat on, hit, shunned. Lived a pretty horrific life really. And died as a teenager. Where exactly was God looking after her in this case?

Not to mention that some congenital abnormalities leave the foetus viable in utero yet they always die within a few hours of birth so not really fitting in with the God spontaneous abortion theory either.




I'm talking about un marriage sex with a play boy which you know strictly and religiously prohibited here. Woman getting pregnant in this case want to cover for the scandal by having a criminal abortion and ends up doing it in an underworld clinic or something. No respected obstetric surgeon will accept to do this abortion. We are not talking about getting rapped but she had her full will agreeing on such sex.

Of course I know this isn't a problem in Europe and USA where having children before marriage is even ordinary, but you know here it's a different story.

Yet many 'respected' Egyptian obstetricians were perfectly happy to perform FGM in their clinics. I do know in Egypt it is a different story of course but that doesn't mean I think it is right. Like I said, I think even the words being used are a problem. We just discount the guy as a 'playboy' and nothing ever happens to him. The woman's life is literally turned upside down though. Essentially she either dies from a backalley abortion, she gets it and most likely lives with incredible guilt for her whole life, whether she's Christian or Muslim, or she has the child and is most likely shunned by society. Meanwhile the guy goes around continuing to screw.




Umm, contraceptive pills?

Firstly, as a medical student, you know very well I'm sure that there are lots of reasons why someone may not choose to use certain contraceptives. Pretty much all of them come with some kind of side effects if they involve hormones. The IUD also comes with side effects and some women are not comfortable with having something permanently inserted in that way. I'm happy and proud that medicine in the UK and most of the rest of Europe/North America/ Oceania is based as much around patient preference as possible.


Look man, I get it. I don't mean this in a patronising way at all but I know what Egyptian culture is like and how many people think, your approach is completely normal and typical in Egypt and I don't blame you. Its how you've grown up. I saw that you were saying you're looking to move to the UK to work here once you're finished with your studies. Firstly, good luck! Secondly, if you can tolerate the distance, it being slightly more competitive and a significantly increased rate of casual racism (often borne of ignorance rather than actual malice), seriously think about Australia. The living conditions, work/life balance, general atmosphere, respect and money are all on a different level to the UK. To be honest, every single aspect of being a doctor is better there. And thirdly, I'm by no means saying you should loosen your religious beliefs or become an atheist or whatever. But I do hope a move to the West will open up your viewpoints a little bit and maybe introduce you to some different experiences, as it has for many people before, my friend. :)
 
Man, come on. Sex is a part of life, just as breathing, drinking and eating is. A fundamental part of it.

You can't on one hand say 'God will provide', as many poor Egyptians with miserable lives do as they pop out their 5th or 6th kid and then also say if people have miserable lives, don't have sex.

Sex might just help relieve some of the misery of that life. Though I'm not even sure where this misery thing came from in the first place.

I'm saying if their life is that miserable that they really, really don't want a baby then.

But what if you are having sex and she gets pregnant, what's that, simply raise the child. You won't be the only poor person raising a child. I don't see any strong reason to kill the fetus in such case.
 
If you are having sex you should be fully prepared to have a baby at one point though.

And again, what about those who take contraception, often multiple at a time, and find it fails?

Say a couple have sex, the condom breaks and the woman has the contraceptive implant. To make doubly sure no pregnancy occurs they then go to a pharmacy to get a morning after pill. But this pharmacy has a Christian conservative at the counter who refuses this due to their personal beliefs.

Four to six weeks later they discover they're pregnant. I guess they're just screwed then?
 
I wonder in @el3mel 's reasoning does he agree that men should take contraception too, or just women? Why shouldnt men take contraceptive hormones?

Oh yeah, because it was created by men who realized it can have fecking awful effects on some people's bodies and pushed that responsibility onto women too. Shut up woman, pop this pill and to hell with the ill effects it has on your body and mind.
 
What if they go to a bad doctor? If there are bad people and dodgy women, then there are also doctors who will make bad decisions.

Or are doctors infallible perfect judges in every situation?

There are many terrible and illegal doctors if that what you want to reach.

But if there is a guide line and certain known indications for abortions simply everyone will have to follow it.
 
There are many terrible and illegal doctors if that what you want to reach.

But if there is a guide line and certain known indications for abortions simply everyone will have to follow it.

What if they don't follow the guidelines?I mean a doctor who says a woman should not have an abortion even if it meets your guidelines.

If there are dodgy women, there are dodgy doctors who will lie and tell her she doesn't deserve it.
 
Its going to seem like I'm picking on Egypt here but I don't mean to, it is just the country where we have something in common. I've worked with lots of Egyptian Gynaecologists during my early years of rotations and still meet up with quite a few at Egyptian medical events in the UK. They are superb doctors, with lots of knowledge and very highly skilled. Let's just say though that some of them tend to let religion and culture infringe on their views with regards to things like abortion, fgm and hymens, regardless of how skilled they may be otherwise. A surgeon should not be bringing god into the conversation at all. And no, god won't just take care of them himself and this is one of the few things I get annoyed about whenever I'm in Egypt. 'Nobody will look after him/her better than God', as there are literally tens of millions of examples across Egypt and hundreds of millions of examples across the Muslim world of the exact opposite of that happening. One of the street kids Nelly was telling me about was born out of wedlock, had no identity, schooling, access to healthcare. She lived her entire life on the street, with no real family other than other street kids. I'm sure her mum was raped or had sex out of wedlock, like that's something which should condemn multiple people to a horrible life. She would get rounded up by the police at times. She had been raped multiple times, beaten many many times, spat on, hit, shunned. Lived a pretty horrific life really. And died as a teenager. Where exactly was God looking after her in this case?

Not to mention that some congenital abnormalities leave the foetus viable in utero yet they always die within a few hours of birth so not really fitting in with the God spontaneous abortion theory either.






Yet many 'respected' Egyptian obstetricians were perfectly happy to perform FGM in their clinics. I do know in Egypt it is a different story of course but that doesn't mean I think it is right. Like I said, I think even the words being used are a problem. We just discount the guy as a 'playboy' and nothing ever happens to him. The woman's life is literally turned upside down though. Essentially she either dies from a backalley abortion, she gets it and most likely lives with incredible guilt for her whole life, whether she's Christian or Muslim, or she has the child and is most likely shunned by society. Meanwhile the guy goes around continuing to screw.






Firstly, as a medical student, you know very well I'm sure that there are lots of reasons why someone may not choose to use certain contraceptives. Pretty much all of them come with some kind of side effects if they involve hormones. The IUD also comes with side effects and some women are not comfortable with having something permanently inserted in that way. I'm happy and proud that medicine in the UK and most of the rest of Europe/North America/ Oceania is based as much around patient preference as possible.


Look man, I get it. I don't mean this in a patronising way at all but I know what Egyptian culture is like and how many people think, your approach is completely normal and typical in Egypt and I don't blame you. Its how you've grown up. I saw that you were saying you're looking to move to the UK to work here once you're finished with your studies. Firstly, good luck! Secondly, if you can tolerate the distance, it being slightly more competitive and a significantly increased rate of casual racism (often borne of ignorance rather than actual malice), seriously think about Australia. The living conditions, work/life balance, general atmosphere, respect and money are all on a different level to the UK. To be honest, every single aspect of being a doctor is better there. And thirdly, I'm by no means saying you should loosen your religious beliefs or become an atheist or whatever. But I do hope a move to the West will open up your viewpoints a little bit and maybe introduce you to some different experiences, as it has for many people before, my friend. :)

You can't separate religion from medicine. Even the patients themselves care about it as much as the doctors. It's a different cultural perspective from Europe I understand but it's an integral part of our life here.

Congenital anomalies incompatible with life as anencephaly is actually an indication for therapeutic abortion here.

Not all gynecological doctors here are great for sure or ethical enough. As for the boy I agree with your point on him, but you need to remember she too had her full will agreeing on such sexual relationship. We are talking about a case when she wasn't forced.

COCs have several side effects but we are talking about them needing no pregnancy at all so she simply has to take the risk. Any drug has side effects anyway.

I respect you understanding my cultural difference and thanks for your difference. I preferred England just for the distance and that PLAP looks kinda easier than the others. Though I promise I will check for the Australian way.
 
Even if the good reasons don't outnumber the bad ones, outlawing abortion or leaving it up to the doctor's decision, as el3mel suggests below, screws everyone, regardless of their reasons.

And who the feck gets to decide if something is a good or bad reason anyway?
Exactly. It's bonkers.
 
You can't separate religion from medicine. Even the patients themselves care about it as much as the doctors. It's a different cultural perspective from Europe I understand but it's an integral part of our life here.

Congenital anomalies incompatible with life as anencephaly is actually an indication for therapeutic abortion here.

Not all gynecological doctors here are great for sure or ethical enough. As for the boy I agree with your point on him, but you need to remember she too had her full will agreeing on such sexual relationship. We are talking about a case when she wasn't forced.

COCs have several side effects but we are talking about them needing no pregnancy at all so she simply has to take the risk. Any drug has side effects anyway.

I respect you understanding my cultural difference and thanks for your difference. I preferred England just for the distance and that PLAP looks kinda easier than the others. Though I promise I will check for the Australian way.

Why should she take the risk associated with the pill? Why shouldn't the man?