You absolutely can and you absolutely should.
I've just read the last few pages and to be quite frank your views on this subject are disgusting and sexist as hell.
Abortion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You absolutely can and you absolutely should.
I've just read the last few pages and to be quite frank your views on this subject are disgusting and sexist as hell.
I studied men contraceptive methods several time so not really prohibited here. Is that an answer?
You are talking as if patient's family don't have the right to bring the doctor for trial in front of the court for malpractice. That happens a lot her actually.
OK buddy.
But the poster you were responding to never said anything about having a miserable or poor life. They were talking about people who are using contraceptive, as you suggested, but it still fails.
You rightly pointed out that most contraceptive failure comes from human error. This happens in every situation and every country. I imagine the rate of (for instance) condom failure in Egypt or the Middle East for people out of wedlock is higher than it may be in the UK because sex education is non existent in the Middle East. I mean, last year, one of my nephews asked one of my sons if masturbation really does cause blindness, as he'd been taught at a (pretty good) school.
Also not a stretch to say that an unmarried woman in such societies who is found to be taking the contraceptive pill or found with condoms in her bag will tend to suffer severe familial and societal consequences. So we know they won't be accessing contraceptives. So we can propagate abstinence. Great if it works but we know even in the most conservative of societies, sex still happens anyway. We can ban abortion and end up causing 8% of maternal deaths because desperate women are taking desperate measures. We can blame women, which is pretty much our default anyway.
Or we can accept, even if we don't think abortion is the nicest thing in the world, even if we think sex should be within certain criteria, that this stuff happens anyway and that it is better to try to provide safe and effective services than it is to put our heads in the sand.
This is thankfully where most of the West is at. It is unfortunately where most of the Middle East and Latin America (and other places of course) are not at. I've worked as a doctor in both settings in the past and, as I said, people will find a way anyway. Let's try to make it safe for them. In our tunnel minded approach to trying to save the feotus, let's not end up ruining or ending the life of someone who is actually presently here.
It's not an answer at all. Why shouldn't men take the associated health risk of oral contraceptives instead of women?
The second one is also not an answer. How long will a malpractice trial take? Will the woman have the pregnancy that she should have, according to the guidelines, been given an abortion for that the dodgy doctor denied her? In your country where people frown on abortion, would she REALLY go to a second doctor after building up the courage to see the first one?
He was replaying on an older point.
Strictly from our view here in my country, let's see that we allowed abortion for unmarried sex to cover for her, do you think tha will be the end of her problem? What will be reaction of her husband when he marries her and discovers her penentrated hymen.
I know these things aren't issues at all in Europe, but in Islamic countries having unmarried sex without anyone of her family knowing can pretty much destroy the rest of her life. There's a difference in culture.
I didn't say they should not. Your problem is you simply invent things out of your mind.
What would prevent her from going to another doctor if she believes she's on the right side?
Your argument is that her life is destroyed anyway so let's force her to have a baby as well, so that baby can also have a miserable life. I think this appeal to culture actually considerably weakens your anti-abortion argument.
Also, start educating Egyptian men that the hymen can and does break from other things than sex.
I know about the hymen thing but good luck convincing her husband with that!
She had unmarried sex fully will and wasn't even raped. Tell me a reason why the doctor should kill a fetus for his mother own and full mistake?
I understand that it is a different cultural perspective (and have worked in Egypt before) but religion absolutely should be separated from medicine. And part of the issue, like I said, is that sometimes these doctors come and maintain these views, even in the face of scientific evidence (not talking about abortion in this instance).
I'm not talking about that though. You were saying that the Gynaecology professor was saying if the abnormality is incompatible with life, God would be merciful and do a spontaneous abortion before it gets to the baby being alive. I'm saying that is medically false though. Its a long long time since I did paediatrics or O&G for that matter but I remember there are quite a few conditions where the baby is born but has a 100% mortality rate in the first few hours of life. So according to that Gynaecology professor, why has God not aborted those babies then? Why has God allowed the baby to be born, to give parents perhaps the worst trauma imaginable, of seeing their child die in front of them? His logic does not stack up.
Again, nobody is talking about being forced right now, it is the wholly unfair societal focus on the woman rather than the man.
I can't speak for other countries with this but there are absolute contraindications for certain types of contraceptives in the UK. You can't use the combined pill in the UK if you're over 30, obese and a smoker for instance. A woman obviously can't use the IUD if she has constant, heavy bleeding.
PLAB is definitely easier than the Aussie exams and the UK is much closer.
I used to be very much pro choice when I was younger. I’m in my thirties now, and 2 kids and a miscarriage later I’ve definitely revised that stance. I’m not anti abortion, but I’m definitely less supportive of it. I’m ultimately still very much against forcing people to have children they don’t want though so it’s really complicated.
He was talking about certain congenital anomalies that are fully compatible with life but with problems, like Dawn syndrome. As for anencephaly we study it as indication for therapeutic abortion. Should a doctor abort a Dawn baby?
There are contraindications to CoCs for sure everywhere, don't disagree.
My sister lives in Alabama. She's looking forward to moving.
Sessions once came to her uni and got a hero's welcome.
Sessions once came to her uni and got a hero's welcome.
Nobody said it would be the end of her problem. I'm sure her societal problems would still continue. We might save her from killing herself though or creating a street child that's gonna live their life as a shadow before likely dying young from back alley abortion complications.
The hymen thing is education and actually what I was referring to before (some of the gynaecologists I've met refuse to accept it...).
In Islamic countries (or let's change this to countries with conservative cultures), there are lots of things which can unfortunately destroy her life. One of my wife's friends is a Copt from a village in the delta. She was telling us a story about how a 16 year Copt in their village was being primed for marriage to the richest and most powerful man in the village ( a guy in his 50s). She was against it and, long story short, after months of her mum calling her a whore, saying the only reason she wouldn't do it is because of sex, her hymen, yada yada, they forced the marriage through. She is unsurprisingly living in misery, even though he treats her well enough.
It isn't a Muslim thing, its a conservative thing and we don't need to add to the problems by forcing them into back alley medicine.
You tell me. You've explained at great length to explain the potential shame involved. Why would she go to a second doctor and experience all the shame again?
On oral contraceptives, how many men in your country take it versus how many women?
I wonder how these conservative fools feel about men taking pills that stop their dicks from working.
I'm not talking about just anencephaly, I'm talking about lots of different conditions. Either way, it doesn't fit in fully with what he is saying anyway. Those will be hours of a horrible life, so why is God not doing what's best for the baby and the family?
That is a complex matter. One of my nieces has Down's syndrome, she's lovely, leads a great life, her family are very supportive. I personally wouldn't have aborted any of my children if the scans had come back positive for Down's syndrome. But I don't pretend that I'm the barometer of what human morality is, nor do I think people should just do what I do and think.
I can see why people would do it. And as always, while modern medicine marches on, it is raising more and more questions. Used to be that children with Down's syndrome lived until their 20s/30s at the maximum for the most part and died before their parents did. Horrible to see your child die of course but also meant that people with a condition that meant they could never be fully independent did not outlive their parents. Now they can live to their 50s..so what happens after their parents die?
My in laws are an incredibly tight knit family so someone else in the family will look after her but this will not always be the case.
If the guys were gay then I think they would probably want to make it compulsory ... well OK they would want the pill to kill them but they would probably settle for for a reverse viagra solution.
What, in your view, is a hymen physically? What is taught in school?
I recently read that the Danish word for it is basically extremely misleading.
The Hungarian word for it is literally "virgin membrane". Which obviously does not help with combating the misconception that if someone doesn't have an intact hymen, it means she had sex.
But at least abortion is fully legal here and "virginity" is a concept of rapidly decreasing significance.
But this kind of social stigmatisation/criminalisation of women's sexual autonomy is part of the problem, not an unshakeable premise upon which all further conclusions have to rest. It creates a situation where women have a greater objective interest in an abortion than they might have otherwise (or where the father-to-be/family members might pressurize them into one), since the alternative, as you say yourself, is social ostracism.
Exact same case in Denmark. "Virgin membrane", as if there's a membrane present before the first intercourse (there's not).
Another fun fact I just learned about: The female urethra is incredibly poorly mapped on most sketches you'll find in the Danish med books. Meaning a lot of young nurses and doctors will find it very difficult to lay a catheter on a female until they realise they've been taught wrong for ages.
Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
Huh?
What sort of argument is that?
It's a species that has been waging war within itself for the last few thousand years. By that logic, let's not indeed bother about saving our environment, let humanity die.
Today we've had a population growth of around 100k people so I'm guessing it's for them.
An ex girlfriend of mine had an abortion when she was 18. We were both still kids basically and no way in hell would it had made sense for us, nor the baby, to keep it.
There are far too many people on the earth anyway - no reason to insist on increasing the number more than it already is.
And all this talk about the baby deserving to live. I sort of get it, but in my book, a baby is far more deserving of parents who actually want it instead of two people who don’t know each other if it’s a ons, two people that don’t love each other or two people who aren’t mature enough or ready like it was the case for myself.
It’s sad that in this age this is still a talking point.
There are far too many people on the earth anyway - no reason to insist on increasing the number more than it already is.
And all this talk about the baby deserving to live. I sort of get it, but in my book, a baby is far more deserving of parents who actually want it instead of two people who don’t know each other if it’s a ons, two people that don’t love each other or two people who aren’t mature enough or ready like it was the case for myself.
It’s sad that in this age this is still a talking point.
Wait, what? The earth’s population is increasing and been since the dawn of times. If anything, we’ll get to a point where there are too many people for the planet. And if you’re right, I’m sure a few animal species will appreciate our absence.
We haven't started to do anything, abortion has been around, in various formats, since at least the time of the Ancient Egyptians and Greeks, if not even earlier with the Ancient Chinese.
Abortion is also a concept that has been around in different civilisations that are unlikely to have had much contact with each other and therefore unlikely to have passed it on to each other.
As for the population, our population was about 170 million in the year '1'. It stayed roughly static for a long time: 270 million in the year 1000: Reached 400 million around 1500. 600 million 200 years later. 1 billion around 1800. 1.6 billion in 1900. 6 billion in 2000. About 7 billion 19 years later.
So the species has been around for literally tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands as very similar to this. And population barely grew. We didn't reach 1 billion for tens of thousands of years, took 100 years to add another 500 million and have exploded exponentially in the past 200 years or so.
We've added as many humans in the last 19 years as we did in the 1800 years after Jesus' birth, if we're going to use that as a marker. I think we're ok when it comes to the population.
As has been pointed out, contraceptives don't always work, but that's not all.
For example, you have teens and early 20s. Are you aware that a boy's frontal lobe is not fully developed until early to mid 20s? Teenagers are impulsive, and there are good physiological reasons to explain that. I trust you remember being a hormonal teen? Did you always make smart choices? Even if you did I reckon you can relate to the idea that someone might have sex without wrapping it up.
Ok, so that's one example. Next up: what if you're in one of the shittier states of the US? No sex ed, even though that's been shown to reduce abortion, pregnancy and STD rates, which is due to laws made by people who care more about religious virtue than what actually improves life. Plenty of states also do what they can to not allow birth control to be used. In some states a pharmacist can refuse to fill the prescription due to their own religious views. You can go to a doctor, have him write you a script, then you might have to go out of state to fill it, and then you might still be at the mercy of a bloody pharmacist's views of morality. It's ridiculous. If those are your circumstances as a woman, how can you be expected to make responsible choices?!
Those are just a couple of scenarios that make your "use contraception" point less forceful.
And when I talk about mothers dying from failed abortions, I am talking about the ones who will go and have back-alley abortions and what have you because they have no legitimate options to make use of. That happened, still happens, and will happen even more if people who want to narrow the right to abort. Seriously man, if you're a fan of misery, go and take away the right to abort, and you'll see an increase in misery by a number of metrics.
When I'm talking about the rules in the US, for example, those are made by privileged old men, some of whom refer to a fetus as being in the stomach of the woman, which show cases just how ignorant these fecks are about the subject they're legislating around. They don't care about the facts, and the company anti-choice people have to keep should give them pause. It's ruled by emotion, which is another good way to dial back the activity in your frontal lobe, and it'll impact the poor and distraught most of all. The worse someone's situation is, the harder it is to make good choices.
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FFS. Why is a comment like this getting serious responses?
I try as much as I can to engage with people online as I would in real life, though knowing full well that the same might not be happening the other way round.
Some of these comments are undoubtedly trolls and I know almost nobody changes their minds online. But I think getting angry and exasperated defeats the purpose of discussion. Maybe nobody will ever change their mind or maybe just 1 person will but I've got to at least try I think.
Maybe I'm the fool!
I appreciate all the guys who support a woman's right to do whatever she wants with her body, and also point out the inconsistencies when it comes to placing blame exclusively on the woman, as if she got pregnant all by herself.
There's also a chance you change the mind of someone on the fence about an issue who's not participating in the discussion but merely reading.
That's also a good point, hadn't really considered that. Well either way, I hope someone changes their mind at some point!
I'm going to assume this is all blokes discussing whether women should control their own bodies or not. It usually is.
Pretty much.
The tragedy of it all being that it is even a discussion in 2019.