Rado_N
Yaaas Broncos!
You can't separate religion from medicine
You absolutely can and you absolutely should.
I've just read the last few pages and to be quite frank your views on this subject are disgusting and sexist as hell.
You can't separate religion from medicine
I wonder in @el3mel 's reasoning does he agree that men should take contraception too, or just women? Why shouldnt men take contraceptive hormones?
Oh yeah, because it was created by men who realized it can have fecking awful effects on some people's bodies and pushed that responsibility onto women too. Shut up woman, pop this pill and to hell with the ill effects it has on your body and mind.
What if they don't follow the guidelines?I mean a doctor who says a woman should not have an abortion even if it meets your guidelines.
If there are dodgy women, there are dodgy doctors who will lie and tell her she doesn't deserve it.
You absolutely can and you absolutely should.
I've just read the last few pages and to be quite frank your views on this subject are disgusting and sexist as hell.
I'm saying if their life is that miserable that they really, really don't want a baby then.
But what if you are having sex and she gets pregnant, what's that, simply raise the child. You won't be the only poor person raising a child. I don't see any strong reason to kill the fetus in such case.
I studied men contraceptive methods several time so not really prohibited here. Is that an answer?
You are talking as if patient's family don't have the right to bring the doctor for trial in front of the court for malpractice. That happens a lot her actually.
But the poster you were responding to never said anything about having a miserable or poor life. They were talking about people who are using contraceptive, as you suggested, but it still fails.
You rightly pointed out that most contraceptive failure comes from human error. This happens in every situation and every country. I imagine the rate of (for instance) condom failure in Egypt or the Middle East for people out of wedlock is higher than it may be in the UK because sex education is non existent in the Middle East. I mean, last year, one of my nephews asked one of my sons if masturbation really does cause blindness, as he'd been taught at a (pretty good) school.
Also not a stretch to say that an unmarried woman in such societies who is found to be taking the contraceptive pill or found with condoms in her bag will tend to suffer severe familial and societal consequences. So we know they won't be accessing contraceptives. So we can propagate abstinence. Great if it works but we know even in the most conservative of societies, sex still happens anyway. We can ban abortion and end up causing 8% of maternal deaths because desperate women are taking desperate measures. We can blame women, which is pretty much our default anyway.
Or we can accept, even if we don't think abortion is the nicest thing in the world, even if we think sex should be within certain criteria, that this stuff happens anyway and that it is better to try to provide safe and effective services than it is to put our heads in the sand.
This is thankfully where most of the West is at. It is unfortunately where most of the Middle East and Latin America (and other places of course) are not at. I've worked as a doctor in both settings in the past and, as I said, people will find a way anyway. Let's try to make it safe for them. In our tunnel minded approach to trying to save the feotus, let's not end up ruining or ending the life of someone who is actually presently here.
It's not an answer at all. Why shouldn't men take the associated health risk of oral contraceptives instead of women?
The second one is also not an answer. How long will a malpractice trial take? Will the woman have the pregnancy that she should have, according to the guidelines, been given an abortion for that the dodgy doctor denied her? In your country where people frown on abortion, would she REALLY go to a second doctor after building up the courage to see the first one?
Your argument is that her life is destroyed anyway so let's force her to have a baby as well, so that baby can also have a miserable life. I think this appeal to culture actually considerably weakens your anti-abortion argument.He was replaying on an older point.
Strictly from our view here in my country, let's see that we allowed abortion for unmarried sex to cover for her, do you think tha will be the end of her problem? What will be reaction of her husband when he marries her and discovers her penentrated hymen.
I know these things aren't issues at all in Europe, but in Islamic countries having unmarried sex without anyone of her family knowing can pretty much destroy the rest of her life. There's a difference in culture.
Your argument is that her life is destroyed anyway so let's force her to have a baby as well, so that baby can also have a miserable life. I think this appeal to culture actually considerably weakens your anti-abortion argument.
Also, start educating Egyptian men that the hymen can and does break from other things than sex.
You can't separate religion from medicine. Even the patients themselves care about it as much as the doctors. It's a different cultural perspective from Europe I understand but it's an integral part of our life here.
Congenital anomalies incompatible with life as anencephaly is actually an indication for therapeutic abortion here.
Not all gynecological doctors here are great for sure or ethical enough. As for the boy I agree with your point on him, but you need to remember she too had her full will agreeing on such sexual relationship. We are talking about a case when she wasn't forced.
COCs have several side effects but we are talking about them needing no pregnancy at all so she simply has to take the risk. Any drug has side effects anyway.
I respect you understanding my cultural difference and thanks for your difference. I preferred England just for the distance and that PLAP looks kinda easier than the others. Though I promise I will check for the Australian way.
I understand that it is a different cultural perspective (and have worked in Egypt before) but religion absolutely should be separated from medicine. And part of the issue, like I said, is that sometimes these doctors come and maintain these views, even in the face of scientific evidence (not talking about abortion in this instance).
I'm not talking about that though. You were saying that the Gynaecology professor was saying if the abnormality is incompatible with life, God would be merciful and do a spontaneous abortion before it gets to the baby being alive. I'm saying that is medically false though. Its a long long time since I did paediatrics or O&G for that matter but I remember there are quite a few conditions where the baby is born but has a 100% mortality rate in the first few hours of life. So according to that Gynaecology professor, why has God not aborted those babies then? Why has God allowed the baby to be born, to give parents perhaps the worst trauma imaginable, of seeing their child die in front of them? His logic does not stack up.
Again, nobody is talking about being forced right now, it is the wholly unfair societal focus on the woman rather than the man.
I can't speak for other countries with this but there are absolute contraindications for certain types of contraceptives in the UK. You can't use the combined pill in the UK if you're over 30, obese and a smoker for instance. A woman obviously can't use the IUD if she has constant, heavy bleeding.
PLAB is definitely easier than the Aussie exams and the UK is much closer.
He was replaying on an older point.
Strictly from our view here in my country, let's see that we allowed abortion for unmarried sex to cover for her, do you think tha will be the end of her problem? What will be reaction of her husband when he marries her and discovers her penentrated hymen.
I know these things aren't issues at all in Europe, but in Islamic countries having unmarried sex without anyone of her family knowing can pretty much destroy the rest of her life. There's a difference in culture.
I didn't say they should not. Your problem is you simply invent things out of your mind.
What would prevent her from going to another doctor if she believes she's on the right side?
He was talking about certain congenital anomalies that are fully compatible with life but with problems, like Dawn syndrome. As for anencephaly we study it as indication for therapeutic abortion. Should a doctor abort a Dawn baby?
There are contraindications to CoCs for sure everywhere, don't disagree.
If the guys were gay then I think they would probably want to make it compulsory ... well OK they would want the pill to kill them but they would probably settle for for a reverse viagra solution.I wonder how these conservative fools feel about men taking pills that stop their dicks from working.
What, in your view, is a hymen physically? What is taught in school?He was replaying on an older point.
Strictly from our view here in my country, let's see that we allowed abortion for unmarried sex to cover for her, do you think tha will be the end of her problem? What will be reaction of her husband when he marries her and discovers her penentrated hymen.
I know these things aren't issues at all in Europe, but in Islamic countries having unmarried sex without anyone of her family knowing can pretty much destroy the rest of her life. There's a difference in culture.
The Hungarian word for it is literally "virgin membrane". Which obviously does not help with combating the misconception that if someone doesn't have an intact hymen, it means she had sex.What, in your view, is a hymen physically? What is taught in school?
I recently read that the Danish word for it is basically extremely misleading.
But this kind of social stigmatisation/criminalisation of women's sexual autonomy is part of the problem, not an unshakeable premise upon which all further conclusions have to rest. It creates a situation where women have a greater objective interest in an abortion than they might have otherwise (or where the father-to-be/family members might pressurize them into one), since the alternative, as you say yourself, is social ostracism.I know these things aren't issues at all in Europe, but in Islamic countries having unmarried sex without anyone of her family knowing can pretty much destroy the rest of her life. There's a difference in culture.
Exact same case in Denmark. "Virgin membrane", as if there's a membrane present before the first intercourse (there's not).The Hungarian word for it is literally "virgin membrane". Which obviously does not help with combating the misconception that if someone doesn't have an intact hymen, it means she had sex.
But at least abortion is fully legal here and "virginity" is a concept of rapidly decreasing significance.
You can't separate religion from medicine. Even the patients themselves care about it as much as the doctors. It's a different cultural perspective from Europe I understand but it's an integral part of our life here.
Congenital anomalies incompatible with life as anencephaly is actually an indication for therapeutic abortion here.
Not all gynecological doctors here are great for sure or ethical enough. As for the boy I agree with your point on him, but you need to remember she too had her full will agreeing on such sexual relationship. We are talking about a case when she wasn't forced.
COCs have several side effects but we are talking about them needing no pregnancy at all so she simply has to take the risk. Any drug has side effects anyway.
I respect you understanding my cultural difference and thanks for your difference. I preferred England just for the distance and that PLAP looks kinda easier than the others. Though I promise I will check for the Australian way.
Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
What sort of argument is that?Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
Today we've had a population growth of around 100k people so I'm guessing it's for them.Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
It's actually hyperexponential.We haven't started to do anything, abortion has been around, in various formats, since at least the time of the Ancient Egyptians and Greeks, if not even earlier with the Ancient Chinese.
Abortion is also a concept that has been around in different civilisations that are unlikely to have had much contact with each other and therefore unlikely to have passed it on to each other.
As for the population, our population was about 170 million in the year '1'. It stayed roughly static for a long time: 270 million in the year 1000: Reached 400 million around 1500. 600 million 200 years later. 1 billion around 1800. 1.6 billion in 1900. 6 billion in 2000. About 7 billion 19 years later.
So the species has been around for literally tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands as very similar to this. And population barely grew. We didn't reach 1 billion for tens of thousands of years, took 100 years to add another 500 million and have exploded exponentially in the past 200 years or so.
We've added as many humans in the last 19 years as we did in the 1800 years after Jesus' birth, if we're going to use that as a marker. I think we're ok when it comes to the population.
I don't ge this. If life is so difficult for the parents why would she get pregnant to start with? I mean contraception is a thing if they want sex that much isn't it?
As for mothers who die from failed abortion, I literally said that if she had a serious medical condition that can lead to her death if the pregnancy goes on she has he right to save her life and do a therapeutic abortion.
But for the difficult life part, no one forced her to get pregnant to start with. Contraception is a thing and it's effective if she doesn't want a baby.
Isn't it interesting that the justifiable concern for the plant and global warning etc. doesn't stack up well against the likely survival of a species that has started to kill its young in the womb...what or who is the planet being saved for?... such a species is surely doomed?
FFS. Why is a comment like this getting serious responses?
There's also a chance you change the mind of someone on the fence about an issue who's not participating in the discussion but merely reading.I try as much as I can to engage with people online as I would in real life, though knowing full well that the same might not be happening the other way round.
Some of these comments are undoubtedly trolls and I know almost nobody changes their minds online. But I think getting angry and exasperated defeats the purpose of discussion. Maybe nobody will ever change their mind or maybe just 1 person will but I've got to at least try I think.
Maybe I'm the fool!
There's also a chance you change the mind of someone on the fence about an issue who's not participating in the discussion but merely reading.
I'm going to assume this is all blokes discussing whether women should control their own bodies or not. It usually is.
I'm going to assume this is all blokes discussing whether women should control their own bodies or not. It usually is.