Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well

Fracture90 said:
I always thought it's more to due to conditioning, athleticism and ability to read the game. Technique is more for ball handling, passing and scoring, no?
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Most important element of tackling is timing for me. You have to keep your eye on the ball and pick your time to slide so as to be sure that you can get to it before the strikers foot. Otherwise you would be giving away more fouls (and yellow cards) than winning the ball back, no matter how athletic you are.

Reading the game is slightly different to me. Because, timing aside, sliding into a tackle takes you out of the game for a split second and even if you get to the ball first you could still put your defence at risk. First you decide if tackling is a necessary or viable option. Then athleticism, conditioning and timing help you get to the ball first.

Though it's one of this things that you can only practice while playing the game, unlike for example striking the ball. So I'm not sure technique is the right word for it.
 
MadMike said:
Most important element of tackling is timing for me. You have to keep your eye on the ball and pick your time to slide so as to be sure that you can get to it before the strikers foot. Otherwise you would be giving away more fouls (and yellow cards) than winning the ball back, no matter how athletic you are.

Reading the game is slightly different to me. Because, timing aside, sliding into a tackle takes you out of the game for a split second and even if you get to the ball first you could still put your defence at risk. First you decide if tackling is a necessary or viable option. Then athleticism, conditioning and timing help you get to the ball first.

Though it's one of this things that you can only practice while playing the game, unlike for example striking the ball. So I'm not sure technique is the right word for it.
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But it's easier to get a perfect timing by being athletic and agile, well conditioned.

There's a reason modern day destroyers Kante, N'Zonzi, Matuidi, Casemiro etc are all very good if not great athletes.

Being athletic enables you to compensate for you lack of game reading, look no further than our very own Valencia. His freakish athleticism allows him to correct his bad defensive positioning so often.
 
Fracture90 said:
But it's easier to get a perfect timing by being athletic and agile, well conditioned.

There's a reason modern day destroyers Kante, N'Zonzi, Matuidi, Casemiro etc are all very good if not great athletes.

Being athletic enables you to compensate for you lack of game reading, look no further than our very own Valencia. His freakish athleticism allows him to correct his bad defensive positioning so often.
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I don't disagree in the slightest, athleticism helps immensely. But there have been brilliant tacklers in the history of football (Nesta the prime example) who were not very athletic but had fantastic timing. Both play their part, I just rate timing a bit higher personally.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Both equally involved in the set up of their team. Kante gets the plaudits as he wins the title in a team that shouldn't, and on paper is the difference that transforms Chelsea back into champions.

Herrera playing in a team with a dysfunctional attack, but the job he does is clear to see and can be supported by the fact we rarely lose even when we don't score.

Although they're not the same player, I'm not convinced switching the two would have as big a difference as some people would expect.

Herrera has had the best season any United midfielder has had since Carrick 12/13. Without his all action displays, the loss tally would be higher in those games we score none or even 1.
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Chelsea were champions the season before last, they downed tools to get rid of their manager. Kante didn't come in and transform them from mid-table mediocrity to champions, they were already capable of winning the league.
(not saying Kante isn't great for Chelsea, mind)
 
MadMike said:
I don't disagree in the slightest, athleticism helps immensely. But there have been brilliant tacklers in the history of football (Nesta the prime example) who were not very athletic but had fantastic timing. Both play their part, I just rate timing a bit higher personally.
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Ofc I agree but it's not like Nesta was some fat blob. He was 187 cm, lean with decent speed and agility on him but you're completely right,, he had superb understanding of the game.

Just don't think technique has anything to do with tackling as that poster has suggested.
 
The difference is one player is fawned over and one player isn't. As someone else said, if Kante has put in that performance the circlejerk would be too strong.
 
RedChip said:
Interesting theory; could explain why so many appear to dismiss Herrera's statistical superiority.
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Skills said:
I don't think Herrera's a typical Spanish midfielder though. I'd say he's very English in many of his characteristics, he just lacks the pedigree that Kante has at the moment (thanks to being a key part of Leicester's title winning side and this years Chelsea side while Herrera's been stuck on the bench under LvG) and is also under a lot more scrutiny because he plays for us.

Our fanbase, is literally one of the few I've seen that right off players as being shit for not making it onto the pitch (whether its due to injuries or being out of favor by the manager irrespective of onfield performances).
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RedChip said:
Yeah, I agree about the reputation, but I do also think what @Stacks said could be part of it. I have challenged a couple of people to explain what they mean by Kante 'dominates the midfield' and, tbh, I haven't heard a convincing explanation. It may well be that his huge engine, athleticism and ground coverage influences opinions more than his actual effectiveness. All hypothetical, of course.
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ti vu said:
It's not mere theory. It's closer to reality. Pep would take Herrera over Kante any days of the week. LVG who also obsessed with positional play & possession wouldn't neither, despite the fact the he himself doesn't fancy Herrera for his pressing game. It's all down how the coach wants to build his team. A more team work demanding system wouldn't need a player to overstep other players' role (press as a team), and would demand more overall contribution in build up from its midfielder.
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Sereques said:
If that is the case, his interception numbers will be higher. Kante is just this years Scott Parker. End of Story.
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http://www.skysports.com/football/n...erves-to-win-the-pfa-player-of-the-year-award

Further to my previous posts about why Kante is fawned over in the UK and how he has attributes that look good in England. Peep the comments on sky sports. They talk a little bit about his pass completion and make no mention of his creativity with the ball.

Then you get to the real lavish praise. He is a driving force who deserves to be crowned the best player in England

"The Frenchman has been the driving force behind Chelsea's title charge, covering every blade of grass."
"with the same tireless dedication"
"Kante has covered more ground than any other Chelsea player this season, running the equivalent of eight marathons since the start of the season"
"His extraordinary energy has allowed him to make more ball recoveries than any other outfield player this season"
"He's all over the pitch."

If the best player in the country is the one who can run marathons, then our league has problems......
 
Kush said:
Herrera is a more rounded footballer but Kante is a better player, no amount of stats can change that.
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Nah Herrera is a better player full stop. Open your eyes pal.
 
Kush said:
Herrera is a more rounded footballer but Kante is a better player, no amount of stats can change that.
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You mean no amount of stats or viewing of actual matches will change your mind?

Surely you didn't intend to mean it like it's been written in the Bible that Kante is the better player of the two.
 
Ander all day long for me. Kante is very good but quite limited in his game and I think we will see he has peaked but Ander is slowly but surely developing.
 
Kush said:
Herrera is a more rounded footballer but Kante is a better player, no amount of stats can change that.
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Kante is a better runner and English media is in awe of distance run stats. Plain and simple. Kante's technically average, you play him in BuLi or LaLiga and he'd look out of place. Actually in the Euros last year, Kante had a poor tournament
 
anant said:
Kante is a better runner and English media is in awe of distance run stats. Plain and simple. Kante's technically average, you play him in BuLi or LaLiga and he'd look out of place. Actually in the Euros last year, Kante had a poor tournament
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Kante is just a really good water carrier. Makelele had the engine of Kante and fantastic passing vision, fantastic passing range, could beat a man, basically twice the player Kante is.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Nah Herrera is a better player full stop. Open your eyes pal.
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NK86 said:
You mean no amount of stats or viewing of actual matches will change your mind?

Surely you didn't intend to mean it like it's been written in the Bible that Kante is the better player of the two.
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I rate Herrera pretty highly but on basis of watching matches Kante is a better player and the reason is even though he is quite limited going forward he is extremely good at breaking up the play and recycling the ball forward quickly, Herrera defensive stats are boosted by the fact we have no one who plays that role in our squad apart from Fellaini. Herrera has been mainstay of our midfield this season alongside Pogba who doesn't contribute much defensively when compared to someone like Matic who plays alongside Kante. You also add the fact that Chelsea play a much more compact system with 2 wing backs and a third CB who pushes into midfield and Kante's defensive work is further reduced. Pull out Kante stats from last season where he played in a midfield 2 for Leicester and then compare to the two.

anant said:
Kante is a better runner and English media is in awe of distance run stats. Plain and simple. Kante's technically average, you play him in BuLi or LaLiga and he'd look out of place. Actually in the Euros last year, Kante had a poor tournament
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Kante was underwhelming but so was Frances entire midfield including Pogba and Matuidi. Lots of technically average players have succeeded in Bundesliga and La Liga, it's by no means the only metric which would decide how a player would fare in a particular league. Fwiw even I have my doubt how Kante would do in Europe as he is extremely overrated by the English media but that doesn't make him a lesser player than likes of Herrera.

Carolina Red said:
Wouldn't the well roundedness make the better player or am I missing something?
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You can be good at lot of things and great at one thing, Herrera is more rounded as he can fulfill number of roles for a team, he can offer a lot more going forward. Kante offers more to the team on the defensive side.
 
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Kante for me is still better than Herrera. If Herrera keeps this up for another season then who knows? For now though, Kante is still better than him IMO and his technique is not as bad as some here make it out to be.
 
Kush said:
You can be good at lot of things and great at one thing, Herrera is more rounded as he can fulfill number of roles for a team as he can offer a lot more going forward. Kante offers more to the team on the defensive side.
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But if the argument is who is the better football player, how would a person great at only a single thing on the pitch be the better one?
 
Vito Corleone said:
Kante for me is still better than Herrera. If Herrera keeps this up for another season then who knows? For now though, Kante is still better than him IMO and his technique is not as bad as some here make it out to be.
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Both are underwhelming when compared to the world's best Midfielders; they are both system players like Casemiro who only get in the team to provide legs for the team.
 
Herrera player of the match in Stockholm, Kante looked drunk on the Riviera today.. For me Herrera is a much better rounded player.
 
Kush said:
I rate Herrera pretty highly but on basis of watching matches Kante is a better player and the reason is even though he is quite limited going forward he is extremely good at breaking up the play and recycling the ball forward quickly, Herrera defensive stats are boosted by the fact we have no one who plays that role in our squad apart from Fellaini. Herrera has been mainstay of our midfield this season alongside Pogba who doesn't contribute much defensively when compared to someone like Matic who plays alongside Kante. You also add the fact that Chelsea play a much more compact system with 2 wing backs and a third CB who pushes into midfield and Kante's defensive work is further reduced. Pull out Kante stats from last season where he played in a midfield 2 for Leicester and then compare to the two.



Kante was underwhelming but so was Frances entire midfield including Pogba and Matuidi. Lots of technically average players have succeeded in Bundesliga and La Liga, it's by no means the only metric which would decide how a player would fare in a particular league. Fwiw even I have my doubt how Kante would do in Europe as he is extremely overrated by the English media but that doesn't make him a lesser player than likes of Herrera.



You can be good at lot of things and great at one thing, Herrera is more rounded as he can fulfill number of roles for a team as he can offer a lot more going forward. Kante offers more to the team on the defensive side.
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That also makes Kantes job much easier.

And when you put it like that then what does Kante actually do for Chelsea?
 
Kush said:
I rate Herrera pretty highly but on basis of watching matches Kante is a better player and the reason is even though he is quite limited going forward he is extremely good at breaking up the play and recycling the ball forward quickly, Herrera defensive stats are boosted by the fact we have no one who plays that role in our squad apart from Fellaini. Herrera has been mainstay of our midfield this season alongside Pogba who doesn't contribute much defensively when compared to someone like Matic who plays alongside Kante. You also add the fact that Chelsea play a much more compact system with 2 wing backs and a third CB who pushes into midfield and Kante's defensive work is further reduced. Pull out Kante stats from last season where he played in a midfield 2 for Leicester and then compare to the two.






You can be good at lot of things and great at one thing, Herrera is more rounded as he can fulfill number of roles for a team as he can offer a lot more going forward. Kante offers more to the team on the defensive side.
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So basically Herrera's stats are boosted because he is actually that good! That was the most bizarre argument you could have chosen to justify your point.

You think Fellaini or anyone else in our team/league would have similar stats to Herrera? The fact that Herrera actually does it in a midfield where he partners Pogba and then his stats completely outshine Kante is testimony to him being the better player.

Fwiw, start of the season when Kante partnered Fabregas, he was struggling. Matic's introduction actually allowed him to improve. Goes to further show how Herrera is actually better.
 
The fact that Kante is so grossly overrated shows why English football is so behind at the minute. He's not even the best midfielder in London nevermind England.
 
Why do some people seem to ignore last season re Kante? That's why I give him the tip - his body of work is over two full seasons and Leicester Kante was better than Chelsea Kante. Just curious.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
That also makes Kantes job much easier.

And when you put it like that then what does Kante actually do for Chelsea?
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It does as the responsibility is shared by his midfield partner in Matic who is also a defensive monster, that's why his defensive stats i.e., number of tackles won and number of interceptions aren't as high as they were are Leicester last season. I said in the post what he does, he has a great engine so he breaks up the play a lot, he either passes the ball forward quickly or breaks forward himself. His role is quite limited but he does it efficiently at a very high level.

NK86 said:
So basically Herrera's stats are boosted because he is actually that good! That was the most bizarre argument you could have chosen to justify your point.

You think Fellaini or anyone else in our team/league would have similar stats to Herrera? The fact that Herrera actually does it in a midfield where he partners Pogba and then his stats completely outshine Kante is testimony to him being the better player.

Fwiw, start of the season when Kante partnered Fabregas, he was struggling. Matic's introduction actually allowed him to improve. Goes to further show how Herrera is actually better.
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Nothing bizarre about it, I never said Herrera isn't good at what he does. Merely pointed out the fact Kante's stats aren't as good as Herrera because of the system he is playing at Chelsea, if you put Kante in Herrera's role in our team his defensive stats would look better (evident by his time at Leicester). Herrera 'outshining' when Kante's role has been reduced means little since we all saw how integral he was to Leicester side last season.

I'd also like to point out, at the start of season entire Chelsea team was struggling with a flat back four. It wasn't until Conte drafted in Alonso and switched to 343 they started to look good, who knew adding balance to the team would help a team? Just go take a look at Transfer Forum and see how many are keen on us adding a DM to play alongside Pogba because as amazing as Herrera has done this year, that is a position which can be improved upon to add more balance to our team.
 
@Kush

So let me get this straight. You're saying the system and additional assistance he receives in it is the reason why Kante's defensive stats aren't as good as Herrera's. If we accept this then surely the opposite must be true? Herrera's offensive stats should suffer and Kantes should be given a much needed boost. Obviously we haven't seen this.

In the modern era of specialist roles it seems players with a broad spectrum of skill tend to get a bad rap.
 
Kush said:
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Nothing bizarre about it, I never said Herrera isn't good at what he does. Merely pointed out the fact Kante's stats aren't as good as Herrera because of the system he is playing at Chelsea, if you put Kante in Herrera's role in our team his defensive stats would look better (evident by his time at Leicester). Herrera 'outshining' when Kante's role has been reduced means little since we all saw how integral he was to Leicester side last season.

I'd also like to point out, at the start of season entire Chelsea team was struggling with a flat back four. It wasn't until Conte drafted in Alonso and switched to 343 they started to look good, who knew adding balance to the team would help a team? Just go take a look at Transfer Forum and see how many are keen on us adding a DM to play alongside Pogba because as amazing as Herrera has done this year, that is a position which can be improved upon to add more balance to our team.
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People want a Carrick replacement and competition for Herrera. Not a direct Herrera replacement. Go and read the comments before you jump to conclusions.

As for Kante struggling, a player can perform well in HIS role even if a team is struggling. Kante was bang average at the start of the season. Only when Matic was introduced as his partner that he was able to do his defensive work well.

As for the conjecture that Kante would do as well as Herrera here, there is nothing to back that especially seeing how he struggled partnering Fabregas in midfield.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Its an unpopular opinion but I wouldn't swap Herrera for Kante. No chance.
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It shouldn't be that unpopular any more and. It's getting more and more support with the evidence building from the matches, especially the important ones that matter towards the end of the season. Herrera has grown increasingly influential in those matches while Kante seems to have been stagnant
 
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
 
B20 said:
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
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Er, no they haven't actually.
 
B20 said:
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
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Not so much Fellaini, but I, and a lot of United fans, have been of the opinion that Herrera's been one of the better midfielders in the league since joining, not just the past week. Personally, I can't say for certain that Herrera's better than Kanté but I know I wouldn't swap them and I don't know why United fans rating Herrera alongside Kanté bothers opposition fans on here.

Also, the midfield hasn't been the problem this season, it's been our attack. Rashford, Zlatan, Martial, etc have all missed some absolute sitters that our midfield create week in, week out.
 
B20 said:
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
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Christ, you've become into one of the most tedious posters here. Find me the posters who said that Fellaini has become the best around at what they do.
 
B20 said:
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
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So you're just going to pretend this thread and Herrera's own didn't exist before the final? Whatever makes you sleep easier at night.
 
B20 said:
Christ. You win one final against a bunch of kids and suddenly herrera, and even fecking Fellaini, are the best around at what they do. Sure, your 6th place midfield is awesome. They've had no problems all season.
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Your bitterness is becoming tedious, that sixth placed midfield is the only one, in this league, that has proved capable of challenging on multiple fronts and actually winning. Btw when is your fourth place trophy parade?
 
ivaldo said:
So you're just going to pretend this thread and Herrera's own didn't exist before the final? Whatever makes you sleep easier at night.
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It seems he has resorted to lying now.
 
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