Barcelona 2017/18

[giorno]

Such a bad excuse to put the blame on the manager. Barcelona have a vastly better first 11 and that first 11 walked on the pitch tonight thinking they didn't have to show up. They severly undersestimated Roma. They ran under 102km which is pathetic for a team in the CL (Liverpool ran 116km) and their passing percentage was 76% when they usually don't go under 90%.

An how is that not the manager's fault?

Not at all. Umtiti is one of the best CB's in the world. Fazio is a starter for Roma. Alba is a very good left back, Rakitic and Busquets are excellent midfielders. Suárez has been poor in the CL this season but he's one of the world's best strikers. Iniesta is still class and shows more frequent good performances by far than De Rossi who probably had his best game since turning 30.

Patrick Shick started for Roma. They have Kolarov who was finished last season. It's a good spine of Becker, Manolas, Naingolan, Strootman and Dzeko but none of those players would start for Barcelona.

I'd suggest you start watching football outside the PL before making such comments

Roma was the better team over the two legs but they're also 21 points behind a team that Barcelona handily beat earlier in the tournament. It was a supremely poor performance from them, worse than the 1st leg loss against PSG and comparable to the losses to Juventus last season and the thrashing Bayern gave them.

Ah, the old "team X beat team Z so". Juventus went to barcelona to sightsee. Half the team was missing and their own manager downplayed the importance of the game for days before they played. But even ignoring that, it's still one game. Form matters more than anything else.

Btw yes it was worse than the PSG loss because barcelona have a better team than roma overall, whereas PSG was closer. But they got trounced in Paris. Same as last night. The juventus loss is nowhere near - barcelona were somewhat competitive in that game and didn't deserve to lose by that score. The 12/13 season was a special case

If any other team in the CL knockouts would have lost this way to Roma it would have been an upset. For Barcelona it simply should not happen. It's one of the biggest upsets in memory because the difference is not only in team quality on paper but also form.

Eh, no. If Roma did this to liverpool it wouldn't have been a massive upset at all. It's because it was barcelona. Roma are the third best team in Italy, they're not a pub team. And barcelona are not in good form atm. Messi just came back from an injury and without him they were getting smashed in sevilla

An exceptional win from Roma who have been phenomenal at home this year whilst not being particulalry good away from home. Out of the 4 teams left I think they'd prefer Bayern who have not been as good away from home as the other two. Yes they have 9 wins in 10 but they were far from convincing against Celtic, Anderlecht and Sevilla but managed a 2-1 in all of them.

Roma would want liverpool, since they can match liverpool's best weapons(aggression, energy and pace) and even beat them at it(roma are technically the best high pressing team in the top 5 leagues), and it's their closest opponent in terms of individual talent. And they know liverpool's best player like the back of their hand

 

[#07]

Liverpool hasn't faced anything close to as good of a defense as Barca have. Their attack is phenomenal no question, but their midfield is much weaker than Barca's and Barca has much better defense although Liverpool's defense isn't too shabby. You are severely underrating Barca. They have the best defense in Europe, which is the exact type of recipe Liverpool would struggle with.



Respectfully disagree, Ter Stegen is a top 3 keeper in the world, Umtiti is a top 3 CB in the world, and Jordi Alba is a top 3 LB in the world.

Pique has been a little up and down but he was superb in both the Sevilla and Roma matches recently. Semedo was also a gem the other night. They have one of the most talented backlines in the world. Much more talent than United's, where only De Gea is comparable.





No way, they thrashed Madrid at the Bernebeau, and while Madrid looked great the first 35 minutes or so, it was all Barca the rest of the way. Barca have a psychological advantage over Madrid, and obviously it can go either way but the team best equipped to take down Madrid and the one Madrid would want to avoid most is Barca.



Liverpool are fantastic, but you're absolutely right. Put them up against an elite defensive team and they will struggle. They can be deadly with their front 3 but they always have a very hard time breaking down a wall. Teams that will play an open game against them would benefit Liverpool the best, but none of Barca, Madrid, or Bayern would play into their hands like that.



AMEN

I don't think Barca are UCL favorites by any means, and I admit their attack outside of Messi is a little bit lacking, but I actually think they're much better equipped to go further in the tournament due to their elite defense the same way it benefited Juventus and Atletico in years past.

Valverde is easily the most underrated manager in Europe. We are in April for god's sake and they're still undefeated in both CL and La Liga. The sample size is too big for it to simply be luck.

Hope you don't mind me responding to you now, just that in light of yesterday night's result I'm going to reiterate the points I made that you disputed about Barca's defence.

Defensively Barcelona's good but not great. For a long time Mascherano was made to look a top centre back by playing for Barcelona. When teams don't expose your frailties its easy to look amazing.

I am not going to make out that Barcelona's a bad team, that's silly. Some of the best players in the world are in Barcelona's squad. However, those individuals are mostly concentrated in attacking areas. The defensive part of the team relies on the world class attack to put the opposition on the back foot and then they can play with more freedom.

This entire season might've been very different had Madrid made the most of their first half attacks in the Christmastime classico.

 

[Bole Top]

you're bound to get tired at the end of the season when your best players have to play every game at all cost. last season I read that Madrid played 14 games without one of Ronaldo & Bale and won 11 of them, drawing 2. it's fair that Barca can't play without Messi, but what about others? they don't really have that many options on the bench. as shit as Suarez can be at times, his sub is even worse and it's the same story with their midfielders with Coutinho being cup tied. you drag Iniesta out of the game only to get Gomes in. you put Suarez on the bench and you can only put Alcacer in. just average.

 

[Snow]

If you had the much better 11 and still lost that is usually a sign of poor management.

When the team with 72% winrate and 0.5 goals conceded per game suddenly loses 0-3 it's not because of poor management. The management had worked supremely well up until the game where not a single player was close to having a decent game.

 

[Snow]

I think you are underrating Roma a bit here. Nainggolan, Florenzi and Manolas could replace Rakitic, Roberto and Pique without Barca dropping much, if anything, in quality. Dzeko and Kolarov have been in superb form lately and there are no glaring weaknesses in the Roma side. De Rossi has put in many excellent performances since turning 30. I get the feeling you haven’t watched Roma for a while.

Sergi Roberto isn't a definite Barcelona starter. He's their utility player that fills holes when starting players are missing so it's not very surprising that Roma's best midfielder could keep up similar quality as him. As for the others, no, not so much. Manolas in the Barcelona defense would not be good fit.

I'm not underrating them by saying that Barcelona's first team is better on paper in pretty much every aspect. That's not me saying that Roma are bad, that's just me saying Barcelona are better which is the truth.

 

[Snow]

An how is that not the manager's fault?

I'd suggest you start watching football outside the PL before making such comments


Ah, the old "team X beat team Z so". Juventus went to barcelona to sightsee. Half the team was missing and their own manager downplayed the importance of the game for days before they played. But even ignoring that, it's still one game. Form matters more than anything else.

Btw yes it was worse than the PSG loss because barcelona have a better team than roma overall, whereas PSG was closer. But they got trounced in Paris. Same as last night. The juventus loss is nowhere near - barcelona were somewhat competitive in that game and didn't deserve to lose by that score. The 12/13 season was a special case


Eh, no. If Roma did this to liverpool it wouldn't have been a massive upset at all. It's because it was barcelona. Roma are the third best team in Italy, they're not a pub team. And barcelona are not in good form atm. Messi just came back from an injury and without him they were getting smashed in sevilla


Roma would want liverpool, since they can match liverpool's best weapons(aggression, energy and pace) and even beat them at it(roma are technically the best high pressing team in the top 5 leagues), and it's their closest opponent in terms of individual talent. And they know liverpool's best player like the back of their hand

The manager is not at fault for player's not being able to act professionally. At the end of the day they are professionall footballers, adults. A single poor performance from a player isn't on the manager, that's a ludicrous notion.

Of course it would have been a massive upset if Roma had beaten Liverpool this way. It would have been an upset had they beat Sevilla after losing 1-4 away. There have been over 5000 2-legged ties in the CL history and only 16 times before had a team come back from a 3-goal deficit and only once a 4-goal deficity. With this game that's 18 games in total in over 5000 games. Do I have to calculate that percentage for you to show you the significance?

 

[Culero]

I still don't understand why they'd think a 2 man attack would get it done in the CL. Sure, they are both great footballers but honestly, Messi receives the ball in the 'hole' and only has one player to aim for, or he tries to get a shot. What happens when that central area is shut off? disaster. I've said it before in this thread, i've not understood why they have such a great defensive record this season. Someone tried to explain and yet i still couldn't see it. They just didn't feel like that sort of side and they got exposed for the frauds they are in that sense. Btw great effort by Roma, haven't seen a team successfully reduce space like that without being vulnerable at the back.

This, ridiculous the attack is so Messi dependent all it requires is Leo to have an average game and the whole thing falls apart.

Upsetting result yesterday, as much as pragmatism makes sense with a healthy lead I find Valverde to be to cowardly. He was apparently in an argument with Pique at halftime and the players led by Iniesta were very vocal saying that if they didn't change tactics they were going to lose the game.

Iniesta (during HT): "We are going to end up losing if we keep doing what we're doing."

l I'd suggest that he's lost the dressing room personally, even with a double I would want a coach that suits the Cruyff ideals more, our midfield is not dynamic enough to withstand pressure or try to coast through a game like yesterday showed. Play to your strengths instead of trying to reinvent.

 

[Ish]

A few people have been saying that a result like last night has been coming to this Barca side.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

A few people have been saying that a result like last night has been coming to this Barca side.

See pages 29-31 of this thread.

 

[Ish]

See pages 29-31 of this thread.

Yeah, that's especially around the time of the Sevilla match. Unbelievable that they're still unbeaten. Then again, Messi's also been in great form in La Liga.

 

[Ishdalar]

Not at all. Umtiti is one of the best CB's in the world. Fazio is a starter for Roma. Alba is a very good left back, Rakitic and Busquets are excellent midfielders. Suárez has been poor in the CL this season but he's one of the world's best strikers. Iniesta is still class and shows more frequent good performances by far than De Rossi who probably had his best game since turning 30.

Patrick Shick started for Roma. They have Kolarov who was finished last season. It's a good spine of Becker, Manolas, Naingolan, Strootman and Dzeko but none of those players would start for Barcelona.

Roma was the better team over the two legs but they're also 21 points behind a team that Barcelona handily beat earlier in the tournament. It was a supremely poor performance from them, worse than the 1st leg loss against PSG and comparable to the losses to Juventus last season and the thrashing Bayern gave them.

I think you are underrating Roma a bit here. Nainggolan, Florenzi and Manolas could replace Rakitic, Roberto and Pique without Barca dropping much, if anything, in quality. Dzeko and Kolarov have been in superb form lately and there are no glaring weaknesses in the Roma side. De Rossi has put in many excellent performances since turning 30. I get the feeling you haven’t watched Roma for a while.

Not only underrating Roma in absolut terms, just in this leg Busquets has played injured, Rakitic it's obviously fatigued at this point of the season, that alone puts Naiggolan and Strootman on par or even better in midfield.

And then there's the Iniesta thing... at this point of his career he's a highlight mercenary 9 out of 10 games, his only contributions to the team are not losing the ball while pressed 1vs1, with horizontal or back passes that rarely help us play better, fancy dribbles that usually serve nothing, as he's too far from the area and has an absurdly lack of pace and... that's barely all, then he has that one game where he reminds us of the old Iniesta, but not enough of those left in the tank to justify having him start every big game and against the top 12 teams of La Liga.

Iniesta lacks pace, strength, range (when he hits the ball it even sounds like a wet sock falling to the ground, it's pathetic), height, and worse of all, he becomes redundant in a midfield of 4 if he's playing as a left forward, its 13' 15' Xavi all over again, you can see traces of what made him world class, but his contribution to the team usually does more harm than good, you can't expect to win a treble, waiting for guys in that form to show up in 14 games through the season, specially if they're midfielders, and even worse if you lack another world class midfielder alongside him, Rakitic is good, but not "let's win this between you and me, Leo" good.

And then Suarez... what can we say about Suarez? For me his regression in the past two seasons is similar to Torres post 2010, he jams a lot of his strikes, he's no longer able to create a lot of chances on his own, and his pace has dropped considerably, yesterday was the example, you watch 14/15 UCL Suarez, what he did vs PSG or City, how he was a threat on the counter and even from the wing, and yesterday's Suarez vs Roma with no pace to leave anyone behind or his 0 options in the 1vs1 and you can only wonder, what does this player bring to the team right now, beyond decent positioning, good workrate and the ocasional spectacular goal?.
I don't think Alcacer would be too far behind Suarez numbers if he had the same minutes, and we all can agree that a team like Barcelona could use a striker better than Alcacer or current Suarez.

 

[giorno]

The manager is not at fault for player's not being able to act professionally. At the end of the day they are professionall footballers, adults. A single poor performance from a player isn't on the manager, that's a ludicrous notion.

If one player has a poor game it's not the manager's fault. If the entire team collectively shits the bed in the biggest game of the season, it's very much the manager's fault. It's his job to prepare the game. It's his job to make sure his players don't underestimate the opponent. It's his job to keep them focused. If it's a problem of fitness, than that's his fault too! He's the one deciding on their fitness training regime and managing their condition throughout the season. If the team steps onto the pitch without any sense of urgency, purpose or energy, that's very much the manager's fault

Yes it's one game in an otherwise great season for Valverde. But it's also the biggest game they're gonna play all season...

Of course it would have been a massive upset if Roma had beaten Liverpool this way. It would have been an upset had they beat Sevilla after losing 1-4 away. There have been over 5000 2-legged ties in the CL history and only 16 times before had a team come back from a 3-goal deficit and only once a 4-goal deficity. With this game that's 18 games in total in over 5000 games. Do I have to calculate that percentage for you to show you the significance?

Right, my bad. Misunderstood your initial point

Btw for the joy of the caf, this really was a game were tactics played a huge part: barcelona had no answer to the height and physicality of the Dzeko-Schick due up top. That's how Roma managed to force the game to be played on their own terms. Barcelona's high press was made ineffective because all roma had to do was kick it up and one of Dzeko or Schick would win the duel with the CB, bring the ball down and force barcelona to track back in their own half. Even when they failed to bring the ball under control, roma had them, plus naingolann in a free role, Strootman and the two wingbacks using their greater physicality and aggression to win the second balls and 50/50 balls.

Obviously roma's initial goal and the atmosphere contributed greatly to the astonishing difference in energy levels and urgency, which ultimately were the real difference makers. But Di Francesco correctly identified his team's advantages -physicality and aerial dominance- and set the team up in the best possible way to exploit them

 

[amolbhatia50k]

A few people have been saying that a result like last night has been coming to this Barca side.

Yes absolutely. I backed them to struggle in the knockout rounds. Their ability to withstand the press and sustain dominant possession has really fallen in recent years. Smaller teams are regularly able to overload their midfield big time. While Barcelona are the dominant force in la liga, I think the fact that Madrid are the powerhouse in terms of midfield and squad depth strength tells in the CL. You can suffocate this Barcelona midfield and overturn them. Juve did it last year. Roma did it this year. Even Chelsea did pretty well in this regard.

Also did the manager again play only two attackers in messi and Suarez and no attackers out wide"? I don't get this tactic nor do I understand why Messi never rests. He's going to be poor shape for the WC too, at this rate.

 

[Treble]

Barca have an ageing squad. They need to invest heavily in the team to compete for the CL. Their distance covered stats are shockingly bad.

 

[Ish]

Yes absolutely. I backed them to struggle in the knockout rounds. Their ability to withstand the press and sustain dominant possession has really fallen in recent years. Smaller teams are regularly able to overload their midfield big time. While Barcelona are the dominant force in la liga, I think the fact that Madrid are the powerhouse in terms of midfield and squad depth strength tells in the CL. You can suffocate this Barcelona midfield and overturn them. Juve did it last year. Roma did it this year. Even Chelsea did pretty well in this regard.

Also did the manager again play only two attackers in messi and Suarez and no attackers out wide"? I don't get this tactic nor do I understand why Messi never rests. He's going to be poor shape for the WC too, at this rate.

Hahaha yeah we see the game very similarly.

He played a very narrow attack indeed, and only brought on Dembele in the 85th minute when the score was 3-0 and they needed a goal.

More questions than answers and I think the inquiry will start with Valverde.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Hahaha yeah we see the game very similarly.

He played a very narrow attack indeed, and only brought on Dembele in the 85th minute when the score was 3-0 and they needed a goal.

More questions than answers and I think the inquiry will start with Valverde.

I saw them play a game with Iniesta on the left and Paulinho on the right. It makes no sense to leave all your attacking impetus to two attackers. And those attackers never miss a game, ever.

 

[Zehner]

Not only underrating Roma in absolut terms, just in this leg Busquets has played injured, Rakitic it's obviously fatigued at this point of the season, that alone puts Naiggolan and Strootman on par or even better in midfield.

And then there's the Iniesta thing... at this point of his career he's a highlight mercenary 9 out of 10 games, his only contributions to the team are not losing the ball while pressed 1vs1, with horizontal or back passes that rarely help us play better, fancy dribbles that usually serve nothing, as he's too far from the area and has an absurdly lack of pace and... that's barely all, then he has that one game where he reminds us of the old Iniesta, but not enough of those left in the tank to justify having him start every big game and against the top 12 teams of La Liga.

Iniesta lacks pace, strength, range (when he hits the ball it even sounds like a wet sock falling to the ground, it's pathetic), height, and worse of all, he becomes redundant in a midfield of 4 if he's playing as a left forward, its 13' 15' Xavi all over again, you can see traces of what made him world class, but his contribution to the team usually does more harm than good, you can't expect to win a treble, waiting for guys in that form to show up in 14 games through the season, specially if they're midfielders, and even worse if you lack another world class midfielder alongside him, Rakitic is good, but not "let's win this between you and me, Leo" good.

And then Suarez... what can we say about Suarez? For me his regression in the past two seasons is similar to Torres post 2010, he jams a lot of his strikes, he's no longer able to create a lot of chances on his own, and his pace has dropped considerably, yesterday was the example, you watch 14/15 UCL Suarez, what he did vs PSG or City, how he was a threat on the counter and even from the wing, and yesterday's Suarez vs Roma with no pace to leave anyone behind or his 0 options in the 1vs1 and you can only wonder, what does this player bring to the team right now, beyond decent positioning, good workrate and the ocasional spectacular goal?.
I don't think Alcacer would be too far behind Suarez numbers if he had the same minutes, and we all can agree that a team like Barcelona could use a striker better than Alcacer or current Suarez.

Iniesta isn't the player he used to be but he looked brillant for Spain, though. If you ask me, it has more to do with your playing style which is so different to the one under Guardiola. Players like Busquets or Iniesta - or generally those out of La Masia - are great in the system they've grew up with. It utilizes their strengths and coats their shortcomings. But in Valverde's style, their lack of physicality gets exposed. This team simply isn't better than the sum of their parts anymore. Messi is on fire in the league because the way the team plays requires him to try things on his own but this isn't enough in big games. I really have the feeling that there is no systemic attacking concept. They are much worse in retaining the ball then they used to be and this often exposes their defense.

 

[giorno]

In the league, so long as they have Messi they're fine. After 10 years Spanish teams are petrified of Messi. Even real madrid...we just don't play as well as we could because of his presence alone.

And then that fear is justified for most teams: Messi could beat the likes of Las Palmas with 10 cardboard cutouts for teammates

 

[Ishdalar]

Iniesta isn't the player he used to be but he looked brillant for Spain, though. If you ask me, it has more to do with your playing style which is so different to the one under Guardiola. Players like Busquets or Iniesta - or generally those out of La Masia - are great in the system they've grew up with. It utilizes their strengths and coats their shortcomings. But in Valverde's style, their lack of physicality gets exposed. This team simply isn't better than the sum of their parts anymore. Messi is on fire in the league because the way the team plays requires him to try things on his own but this isn't enough in big games. I really have the feeling that there is no systemic attacking concept. They are much worse in retaining the ball then they used to be and this often exposes their defense.

Well, fair is fair, I just rewatched the game and, while I don't think Iniesta was brilliant, yesterday he wasn't as bad as I initially thought when we consider this.

Barcelona played 82 long balls, and the amount of short passes are just 1-2 between Leo and another player and, vast majority, passes between CB's, FB's, Busquets and Ter Stegen.

Rewatching the game at 2x or 3x speed makes our display even worse, and even a sacrilege to the famous "Barcelona way", Ter stegen has a 81% pass completion in La Liga, yesterday it was 45%, same for Umtiti, 91% to 83% or Pique, 89% to 79%.

We were basically playing hoofball, Keeper to Suarez, and CB's to Suarez/Sergi Roberto, it really takes a genius tactician to make Messi the best paid player in the world, build a team around him, and then play the 2nd leg of a UCL Quarterfinal with Leo and Iniesta and try 82 long balls, 30 minutes into the game you could make a point that subbing Vermaelen for Iniesta would actually benefit the way the team was playing.

 

[Schneckerl]

I would give Valverde another chance given his league record. fecked up the CL obviously.

Alright if he lost the dressing room it's done.

 

[VorZakone]

Still can't believe they got knocked out.

 

[giorno]

@Ishdalar the long balls weren't planned, they were forced by Roma. You lacked the energy, intensity and above all, quality and organization, to play through their press. So you booted it up rather than lose it in dangerous areas

 

[Snow]

If one player has a poor game it's not the manager's fault. If the entire team collectively shits the bed in the biggest game of the season, it's very much the manager's fault. It's his job to prepare the game. It's his job to make sure his players don't underestimate the opponent. It's his job to keep them focused. If it's a problem of fitness, than that's his fault too! He's the one deciding on their fitness training regime and managing their condition throughout the season. If the team steps onto the pitch without any sense of urgency, purpose or energy, that's very much the manager's fault

Yes it's one game in an otherwise great season for Valverde. But it's also the biggest game they're gonna play all season...


Right, my bad. Misunderstood your initial point

Btw for the joy of the caf, this really was a game were tactics played a huge part: barcelona had no answer to the height and physicality of the Dzeko-Schick due up top. That's how Roma managed to force the game to be played on their own terms. Barcelona's high press was made ineffective because all roma had to do was kick it up and one of Dzeko or Schick would win the duel with the CB, bring the ball down and force barcelona to track back in their own half. Even when they failed to bring the ball under control, roma had them, plus naingolann in a free role, Strootman and the two wingbacks using their greater physicality and aggression to win the second balls and 50/50 balls.

Obviously roma's initial goal and the atmosphere contributed greatly to the astonishing difference in energy levels and urgency, which ultimately were the real difference makers. But Di Francesco correctly identified his team's advantages -physicality and aerial dominance- and set the team up in the best possible way to exploit them

It's good that football is so simple.

That Barcelona team is drilled to pass the ball out of any kind of situation and move the ball into the final third. They've done so all season. Roma might well use their height advantage up front but that doesn't explain them having 45% of the ball or Barcelona's horrible passing. When they lost in Italy last season they had over 90% passing and over 60% possession and more attempts on target than Juventus. That's normal for Barcelona, win or lose. They don't barely have more possession, fluff 1 out of every 4 pass and have half the amounts of shots in a match than their opponent. To put this on the manager is an oversimplification. You just can't explain it that way. You can throw whatever kind of tactic at Barca to maximize your advantage and hope for the best but your performance is not the reason Barcelona were so totally inept. There's way more to it than that. Even when Barcelona play a bad game they at least keep the basics right but I've never seen them like this in the Messi-era.

 

[Peyroteo]

It's not easy to play from the back without the likes of Xavi or Iniesta doing the build up especially against a team like Roma who press very well. Busquets' injury played a part in this too.

What were they supposed to do? They played it long because that was the only way they could escape the press, not because it was their plan to play it long. Suarez, Messi and Sergi Roberto couldn't win those long balls against Roma's defense so it wasn't hard for Roma to stop Barcelona's build up. The same thing happened in the Stamford Bridge game through different periods of the game. When Barcelona were in Chelsea's half they were able to play like they wanted, but when they were in their own half trying to escape the press Chelsea managed to get the ball back more often than not. They've had this problem against teams that press well since Xavi left.

 

[giorno]

It's good that football is so simple.

That Barcelona team is drilled to pass the ball out of any kind of situation and move the ball into the final third. They've done so all season. Roma might well use their height advantage up front but that doesn't explain them having 45% of the ball or Barcelona's horrible passing. When they lost in Italy last season they had over 90% passing and over 60% possession and more attempts on target than Juventus. That's normal for Barcelona, win or lose. They don't barely have more possession, fluff 1 out of every 4 pass and have half the amounts of shots in a match than their opponent. To put this on the manager is an oversimplification. You just can't explain it that way. You can throw whatever kind of tactic at Barca to maximize your advantage and hope for the best but your performance is not the reason Barcelona were so totally inept. There's way more to it than that. Even when Barcelona play a bad game they at least keep the basics right but I've never seen them like this in the Messi-era.

See, i agree with everything you said. Ultimately Valverde is still part of the problem, a big part of the problem because his job is to give his players the best conditions to succeed, and he clearly failed. I would say he's the biggest culprit for their collapse based on the fact his own players didn't believe in his game plan. But of course, it's not his fault alone. The players played their part as well

And yes, as i said, tactics were a part of the problem for barcelona -mostly because they did not expect it and had no answer to it- but just like with city at anfield, it was their lack of energy, focus and urgency after Roma's goal that did them in.(difference is barcelona didn't collapse all at once, it was a slower grind. Unlike City they didn't tilt, they just failed to find solutions)

 

[Apocalypse]

It's one thing for Valverde to get his tactics wrong in a one off match, but this was pure stubborness over two legs. He put the same first team out from the first match where Barcelona were seriously lucky to come away with the 4-1 scoreline. Poor performance with two own goals and additional mistakes by Roma.

At half time last night he had another opportunity to correct the problems with Roma threatening to run away with the match, and he still didn't bother, it was only till the third went in that Dembele was thrown on. Quite frankly that's just unforgivable. Unbeaten season or not, he's quite clearly not a good enough manager to be there long term.

Take Messi out that side and they are woeful. That's not being dramatic, Sevilla could and should have given them an even bigger beating just a couple weeks ago too. I'd be interested to know just how many Barcelona fans would still give him backing to stick around next season if they do the double this year.

 

[Z1L3]

They were also denied goal scoring opportunity when Milito was given offside when he was clear onside and was one on one with GK.

And the Pique goal was offside in the return leg.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Barca's ball struggles to move through the phases cause they are getting it to no one in the attacking areas. That is the biggest problem with playing with a narrow 4, it lacks attacking impetus. Roma knew they could play a high line cause only two players make runs behind the defence in the Barca side. It's basically Alba and Suarez. One player receives the ball in the 'hole' who can hurt a team(Messi). So how do you deal with that? They had a sweeper to deal with the Suarez factor. Backed Florenzi to match Alba stride for stride as we know he has the athleticism for, then flooded the hole with midfielders to deal with the Messi factor. Mind you, the mids always made sure Messi was accounted for, in any area he was he was basically being man marked. Even when they put pressure on the other midfieders, one always stayed behind, rotating depending on where Messi finds himself. Given he himself isn't dynamic enough to hurt a team from wide areas, that wasn't a problem, him droping deep wasn't an issue either cause he won't be starting big moves from the half way line, his go to play which is the over the top ball to Alba as i said was never in play.

The high line allowed Roma to congest the central areas with pressing from the midfielders, plus some blindside pressure from their forwards, which led to a complete breakdown of the Barca passing patterns. When Iniesta struggles to find a pass, you know ish is real. Although i thought he was by far the best Barca player in the pitch in the second half, despite being rather average in the first. On the ball Roma was very raw, pure football in a sense without a clear pattern. Dzenko was doing his thing, bullying the defenders into submission, De Rossi was spraying balls, Naingolan was bursting into the box, just basically doing whatever the can to influence the game as individuals which led to a sublime team performance.

 

[Chiken138]

News is breaking from a Barça insider that Valverde and Dembele had a bust up and almost came to blows in training today. Luis Suarez stopped them from hurting eachother

 

[Infordin]

Today we played better with 10 men than 11. We actually became more direct once we were a man down.

We lack urgency in attack. We are sometimes more interested in keeping possession than actually scoring. On so many occasions in the first half I was screaming “SHOOT” at my TV only for us to make yet another sideways pass around Madrid’s box.

 

[VBI]

They were really struggling early on to do that Barca thing where they play those angled passes in between the lines. In the second half oddly they were finding more space in those areas and Busquets was making those passes again. The team have been mostly functional with flashes of brilliance this season, rather than free-flowing, but I understand why. A transitional season with a new manager, having lost one of the 2 megastars of the team, to finish with a Doblete is incredible, far above what I had expected. Valverde will need to work on fitting in guys like Dembele and Coutinho properly and also loosening his own conservative approach to certain games since that is what cost us against Roma.

 

[Raru9]

I think Valverde deserve a second year. Was a great season despite the KO against Roma.

Make double when Madrid seems the great favorite, win Clasico away 0-3 and a draw at home with La Liga in the pocket. With 10 men due Sergi's red card.

But i agree in that is necesary some big spend in the midfield. Quality vs Madrid was remarkable in some parts of the game (Kroos is a hell of player).

 

[PepG]

Hah i guess people see the football different. For me personally Barcelona's display against Real at home was pathetic. There was nothing heroic in defending deep, letting the ball to Madrid, non existent pressing and a red card ala Pepe during Mourinho's days of El Classico Basically if the United manager watched this, he probably shed a tear, because that is exactly how Barcelona would have been playing if he had gotten the job way back in 2008

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

They look so much better with Coutinho. Expect big things from him in the Champions League next season.

 

[KM]

Hah i guess people see the football different. For me personally Barcelona's display against Real at home was pathetic. There was nothing heroic in defending deep, letting the ball to Madrid, non existent pressing and a red card ala Pepe during Mourinho's days of El Classico Basically if the United manager watched this, he probably shed a tear, because that is exactly how Barcelona would have been playing if he had gotten the job way back in 2008

Your obsession with Mourinho is borderline insane.

 

[kouroux]

Your obsession with Mourinho is borderline insane.

Not borderline, it's pathological.

 

[PepG]

Your obsession with Mourinho is borderline insane.

No, not with Mourinho personally. I actually kinda like the guy. I have said many times that his way of winning is not my fav but fair enough for his success. What i cant stand is that of all teams Barcelona would go in this direction. Its like blasphemy lol

 

[roonster09]

No, not with Mourinho personally. I actually kinda like the guy. I have said many times that his way of winning is not my fav but fair enough for his success. What i cant stand is that of all teams Barcelona would go in this direction. Its like blasphemy lol

What's said is people can't accept there is more than 1 way to play football.

Ajax fans and Cryuffists should take their head out of their asses, it's about time.

 

[kouroux]

No, not with Mourinho personally. I actually kinda like the guy. I have said many times that his way of winning is not my fav but fair enough for his success. What i cant stand is that of all teams Barcelona would go in this direction. Its like blasphemy lol

Yeah right... You really are being very honest here.

 

[PepG]

What's said is people can't accept there is more than 1 way to play football.

Ajax fans and Cryuffists should take their head out of their asses, it's about time.

Well of course there are many ways to win in football. Thats the beauty of the sport. What i will argue is that there is no better way than the Cruyff/Guardiola way to play for Barcelona specifically. The proof - 5 CL trophies, 3 Fifa Club World Cups, 4 Uefa Supercups, 12 La Liga titles and the AMAZING football displayed by Cruyff's Dream team, Rijkaard's Barca, the Pep team and his mate Villanova, even Luis Enrique's time.. He started to steer away from it but still the basics were there..