Difference here is Neymar suited the system best, yet his best was and is yet to come. I doubt even Hazard could give you what Neymar was. Even an old boy like Alexis would still be a down grade
Barcelona mismanagement leading to a decline
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
La Liga is a different league. It's played in a different way. Technical skills and ability are given more emphasis in La Liga than PL. I am not saying La Liga is better ( I love the PL) but they are two different leagues.
Kane and Alli might have proven it over a longer period but their ceilings aren't as high as Dembele and Mbappe. They have also failed to impress in europe which is a very important measuring stick for continental clubs. Barca are being quoted £80m for Dembele, would Spurs sell Alli or Kane for that money? As for Mbappe, I agree he's overpriced but I don't think Spurs sell Kane for anything less.
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Barca are in a tough spot I think
their success over the last 8 years or so was based on a combination of a fantastic generation of players from La Masia and adding a sprinkling of brilliance
if La Masia isn't producing like it has they are relying on competing with other clubs for the top players and you have to wonder can they afford to do that given what PSG and the English clubs are spending
their success over the last 8 years or so was based on a combination of a fantastic generation of players from La Masia and adding a sprinkling of brilliance
if La Masia isn't producing like it has they are relying on competing with other clubs for the top players and you have to wonder can they afford to do that given what PSG and the English clubs are spending
All they really need is Ashley Young and some bird poo. Perhaps mix it into a pre match Yoghurt?
You genuinely believe Ali and Kane are not technically sufficient for Barcelona? Because that really is nonsense.
As for price, yes English players tend to cost more but usually, that is only when they are being sold between English clubs.
Kind of disgusting.
They need to show it on the CL for Spurs, just a few good performances would raise their profile and got them interest from clubs like Barca or Real. Bale scored an outstanding hat trick once and everyone was raving about him in Europe.
Barcelona can afford to spend, and have always done so and been able to. And the lure of playing for Barcelona still exists even in today's mercenary footballer world.
The reality is that football is cyclic. No team can indefinitely dominate. Sometimes your youth doesn't come through. Sometimes your transfers don't work out. Sometimes injuries feck you.
Barcelona will be fine just like we were when we lost Ronaldo. They are just going into a down cycle where they might not win as much. But hardly the end of them.
Madrid have signed plenty of players from England who have been successful for them.
If anything the the overwhelming amount of high profile players that have moved from England to Spain have torn that league up.
I include all nationalities in that since the English sample size I so small and those two have dominated in the same way anyway.
Also one game in the group stage is a ridiculous point to rest your hat on imo
Aubamayang took Madrid apart yet he hasn't the qualities that top sides are lookinv for.
Who? Beckham was inferior to Figo, Bale is inferior to Ronaldo, Woodgate was inferior to everybody, and Owen was inferior to Raul or Morientes, not even comparing him to Ronaldo.
Not if you're his father.
If they sign Hazard and a good defender they've still arguably got the best front 3 in the world, improved their team and turned a profit. We'll have to wait a bit before writing them off.
Why would you compare them like that ? We all knew they were inferior to them anyway.
Still need a central midfielder imo but yeah, I agree with the notion.
I was just rebating the argument that all players signed from England were somehow the best of the best, it is false.
@SCP
So where did McManaman, Ronaldo, Bale, Modric, RVN, Beckham even Owen (Are we blaming him for not breaking up Raul and Ronaldo?) come from?
So where did McManaman, Ronaldo, Bale, Modric, RVN, Beckham even Owen (Are we blaming him for not breaking up Raul and Ronaldo?) come from?
They should be going all out for Dembele. Better layer than Mbappe and probably a lot cheaper as well. Him and Messi together could be ridiculously good. Defenders won't be able to get near them.
Just rebating the argument that all from England were the best at Madrid, but forgot about Ronaldo, Modric, even McManaman, yes Ronaldo and Modric highly sucessfull, McManaman only in his first season, after Figo arrived he lost his space, but he was a good player.
Now do your exercise and try to remember good players from Spain in England, I am going to be nice to you ok?
First one, goalkeeper of your club, De Gea? What do you think? For me after Schmeichel the best keeper for your club, Barthez had more reputation, unfortunately things didn't worked out.
Since this is about Barcelona mismanagement, better for us to talk about them instead pointless posts comparing England to Spain, only thing I know is that Kane or Alli will not be there.
You need to know this is nothing personal, just that I like to point there are good teams or players outside the Premier League, money cannot buy everything mate.
Barca are in big trouble. will struggle to score goals with only Suarez and Messi up front...
Indeed VarunNot if you're his father.
Smiling all the way to the bank. Suppose Barca has no one but themselves to blame. They also compensated his father over-and-above, when they signed him.
It's stupid business if this "loyalty" bonus was negotiated at Neymar's last renewal - it's been about a year i think. Unless it is a loyalty bonus from the day he first signed.
@SCP
Where did I say they were the best in Spain? A player can be successful without needing to be better than fecking Zidane.
You're very quick to jump into "EPL overrated lol" debates even when they're not there.
Where did I say they were the best in Spain? A player can be successful without needing to be better than fecking Zidane.
You're very quick to jump into "EPL overrated lol" debates even when they're not there.
Poor bastards. How will they ever cope.
Tbh though if they get a decent young attacker and improve their defense they will still be one of the strongest teams around.
Here we go again, you like to have a argument no?
Who said this? Me or you?
"If anything the overwhelming amount of high profile players that have moved from England to Spain have torn that league up."
Who said this? Me or you?
Where did I mentioned Zidane, your fault mentioning Real Madrid.
Of course I jump, this is a fecking forum, I am not a yes men. Who said EPL overrated, I only say EPL is not the best, not saying is bad, 2 different things.
My God, he royally fecked Barca.
As I said earlier Barcelona have always been like this. It has always been run by the conservatives and the 'Nunistas'.
There are a list of problems going on here:
The management
I'm not sure where to even begin here. They have done shady deals, put the clubs name into disrepute, destroyed relationships with other top clubs like never before. Foreign fans may not know this but the socios do not think like most people. They are hardcore conservatives that are fine with keeping the status quo and it has always been this way.
Nunez was in power for 22 years because he maintained the status quo. Johan was seen as a troublemaker and wasn't the norm. The only reason Laporta managed to win despite being seen as an upstart is because of the awful state of the Barcelona finances and the melancholy that surrounded the club.
Guardiola is still attacked regularly by paid journalists under 'their' control despite starting off as a ball boy and rising up to a captain and leading them to their most successful era. If they can do that to him, how do you think they hold the opinions of the general fans? In contempt. They do not care. It became so bad that Guardiola responded that the Nunistas should leave him alone when he was at Bayern because they kept attacking him.
They board brought the ultras back to the stadium, they pushed several great coaches out of La Masia such as Oscar Garcia and hired people that had no experience. They did this in order to rid the club of Cruijffistas even though the bedrock of La Masia is built on Johan's philosphy (and King Louis, one must not forget).
They promised to renew Abidals contract and he was let go, they sold the gem of La Masia, Thiago Alcantara simply to fund their deceitful Neymar deal. They sold him for peanuts. They fired the legendary kit man Txema Corbella who has been at the club for 32 years. They signed Douglas in some sort off shady scheme.
They got the club involved with Qatar, who ironically have now come to take away Neymar from them. They destroyed the 80 year old Barcelona basketball team.
They tried to frame Laporta by misrepresenting the accounts he left in a surplus. This was already proven by a judge in court. They dragged his name thought the mud. Laporta is by no means an angel as he used Barcelona to advance his political inclinations but he actually improved Barcelonas standing on the world stage.
They have mismanaged the finances so badly. Average players in the squad are on astronomical wages. Compare it to Real Madrid's finances where a player like Marcelo is on 80 000 a week despite being arguably the most decisive player in his position.
Bringing players through the ranks helps to lower the wage bill. Ironically this has been Madrids most successful era in modern football and they are using the philosphy of bringing through academy players whilst Barcelona have resorted to the failed Galacticos model of the 2000s era. That in itself is unforgivable.
It took Pique meeting the cro of Rakuten for Barcelona to find sponsorship. The board are so incompetent. The only positive note on that Barcelona will start receiving 140 million are year from Nike sponsorship so this will alleviate the current wage bill issue.
I can go on in far more detail but I will stop here.
La Masia
The directors of La Masia were changed as previously mentioned and this disrupted the organisation of the teams of all levels. Players began to be mismanaged, the focus became more on winning than improving technique and the style of play was changed from more positinal play schemes to counter attacking. A lot of youths have become disenfranchised as they see no route to the first team.
Puyol recently acting as an agent for Eric Garcia, allowed him to move to Manchester City. Now what does that tell you when one of the greatest captain in the clubs history thinks the player will do better in another club than in the club he played in for years.
Despite all the problems throughout the post Cruijff era, La Masia endured and became even more convicted in the ideal. This is arguably the worst presidency period in Barcelonas history and that is saying something because this club has been the most mismanaged top club in the history of football.
They have had Maradona at his peak, thy had Johan at his peak, they had Kubala at his peak, yet won only one European Cup after Johan became manager. I mean, the club tured don't he opportunity to sign Marco van Basten and Frank Rijkaard to sign Gary Lineker and Mark Hughes. Let that sink in for how badly run this club has been.
People keep talking about not having Xavi and Iniesta's but they miss the whole point. Busquets wasn't seen as a prospect until Pep came and took positinal play into the modern era. Busquets is the ideal La Masia example here. He is the perfect player for the system but would struggle when he has too much space as he has done under Enrique. His skillset never changed, he was asked to do things he simply can't.
La Masia players have all the basic knowledge of positinal play but the first team hasn't utilised since at least 2013 so the skill set that these players have honed all their lives in the academy cannot be used for the first team so they are left in a limbo. As Johan said, either you are fully committed 100% or don't bother.
People talk about Cruijffs philosphy but it has not been used since Tito sadly left the club. Tata deviated from it and Enrique is the emboidment of the boards decision to steer the club in another direction.
Watching the ex Barcelona presidents clapping in the Classico after Johan's death made me sick and reminded me of Mafia family members going to the funeral of a rival they had just had put down.
The First Team
The team is essentially the most one man reliant team in Europe. Messi is the judge, jury and executioner on the pitch and affects the club on the board room level. This is something that does not happen at other bug clubs.
With the sale of Neymar the board had an opportunity to restore some sanity and sign a coach that actually knows how to execute positinal attacks such as Sarri, Laudrup, Quique Setien, Eusabio Sacristan,Tuchel, Paco Jemez, Oscar Garcia and a few more but the board are cowards and hired Valverde as a safe option. I still have my doubts about him and his supposed wanting of Paulinho raised my suspicion.
I would have Gotten rid of players like Rakitic, Arda Turan, Paco Alcacer, Mascherano and I would have signed Roque Mesa, Jorghinho from Napoli and Sergej Milinkovic. Players that fit the profile not world class signings hyped by the media. Players who have specific strengths that can be utilised in the game of position.
If Sarri can coach Jorghinho/Diawara, Hamsik and Zielinski to have the best build up in the first 2/3rds of the pitch in the whole of Europe there is no excuse that a club that has been doing this for over 20+ years cannot execute it to an optimal level. Coaching is the biggest issue.
I would put Deulofeu on the left wing and then try and buy Dembele if a statement signing is required. Possibly sell Vermalen and try for another centre back such as Laporte or Inigo Martinez or Switch to a back 3 because Messi's runs into the centre means that an effective position game can't be utilised as there is always an overlap or a gap either in the flank or in the centre when the opposing team beats the first line of pressure from Barcelona.
This means that Barcelona cannot control the centre which is a must to dominate games effectively and not just circulate the ball in the sacrilegious U shape round the back and pass horizontally without any purpose or tactical forethought and then have the illusion of 'control' becaue you have 60%+ possession.
The board looking at Dybala baffles me as both him and Messi occupy the same Zones. Who would make the off the ball runs? Suarez cannot do it on his own and you need wingers to stretch the pitch horizontally to create space in the middle.
A basic football concept that has eluded Barcelona for the best part of 2 seasons. Neymar usually just ignored width provided by Albas overlapping run and just held on to the ball for far too long, attempted a dribble that made no sense or looked for Messi to pass to when teammates are in better positions. In fact I suspect Jordi Alba will be the happiest Neymar has left.
All in all I don't think things will get better. Messi is 30 and at the tail end of his career and there is no plan in place. The club is approaching the point that required a revolution in the 2000s. La Masia is being misuse because the head doesn't work with the body anymore.
There are a list of problems going on here:
The management
I'm not sure where to even begin here. They have done shady deals, put the clubs name into disrepute, destroyed relationships with other top clubs like never before. Foreign fans may not know this but the socios do not think like most people. They are hardcore conservatives that are fine with keeping the status quo and it has always been this way.
Nunez was in power for 22 years because he maintained the status quo. Johan was seen as a troublemaker and wasn't the norm. The only reason Laporta managed to win despite being seen as an upstart is because of the awful state of the Barcelona finances and the melancholy that surrounded the club.
Guardiola is still attacked regularly by paid journalists under 'their' control despite starting off as a ball boy and rising up to a captain and leading them to their most successful era. If they can do that to him, how do you think they hold the opinions of the general fans? In contempt. They do not care. It became so bad that Guardiola responded that the Nunistas should leave him alone when he was at Bayern because they kept attacking him.
They board brought the ultras back to the stadium, they pushed several great coaches out of La Masia such as Oscar Garcia and hired people that had no experience. They did this in order to rid the club of Cruijffistas even though the bedrock of La Masia is built on Johan's philosphy (and King Louis, one must not forget).
They promised to renew Abidals contract and he was let go, they sold the gem of La Masia, Thiago Alcantara simply to fund their deceitful Neymar deal. They sold him for peanuts. They fired the legendary kit man Txema Corbella who has been at the club for 32 years. They signed Douglas in some sort off shady scheme.
They got the club involved with Qatar, who ironically have now come to take away Neymar from them. They destroyed the 80 year old Barcelona basketball team.
They tried to frame Laporta by misrepresenting the accounts he left in a surplus. This was already proven by a judge in court. They dragged his name thought the mud. Laporta is by no means an angel as he used Barcelona to advance his political inclinations but he actually improved Barcelonas standing on the world stage.
They have mismanaged the finances so badly. Average players in the squad are on astronomical wages. Compare it to Real Madrid's finances where a player like Marcelo is on 80 000 a week despite being arguably the most decisive player in his position.
Bringing players through the ranks helps to lower the wage bill. Ironically this has been Madrids most successful era in modern football and they are using the philosphy of bringing through academy players whilst Barcelona have resorted to the failed Galacticos model of the 2000s era. That in itself is unforgivable.
It took Pique meeting the cro of Rakuten for Barcelona to find sponsorship. The board are so incompetent. The only positive note on that Barcelona will start receiving 140 million are year from Nike sponsorship so this will alleviate the current wage bill issue.
I can go on in far more detail but I will stop here.
La Masia
The directors of La Masia were changed as previously mentioned and this disrupted the organisation of the teams of all levels. Players began to be mismanaged, the focus became more on winning than improving technique and the style of play was changed from more positinal play schemes to counter attacking. A lot of youths have become disenfranchised as they see no route to the first team.
Puyol recently acting as an agent for Eric Garcia, allowed him to move to Manchester City. Now what does that tell you when one of the greatest captain in the clubs history thinks the player will do better in another club than in the club he played in for years.
Despite all the problems throughout the post Cruijff era, La Masia endured and became even more convicted in the ideal. This is arguably the worst presidency period in Barcelonas history and that is saying something because this club has been the most mismanaged top club in the history of football.
They have had Maradona at his peak, thy had Johan at his peak, they had Kubala at his peak, yet won only one European Cup after Johan became manager. I mean, the club tured don't he opportunity to sign Marco van Basten and Frank Rijkaard to sign Gary Lineker and Mark Hughes. Let that sink in for how badly run this club has been.
People keep talking about not having Xavi and Iniesta's but they miss the whole point. Busquets wasn't seen as a prospect until Pep came and took positinal play into the modern era. Busquets is the ideal La Masia example here. He is the perfect player for the system but would struggle when he has too much space as he has done under Enrique. His skillset never changed, he was asked to do things he simply can't.
La Masia players have all the basic knowledge of positinal play but the first team hasn't utilised since at least 2013 so the skill set that these players have honed all their lives in the academy cannot be used for the first team so they are left in a limbo. As Johan said, either you are fully committed 100% or don't bother.
People talk about Cruijffs philosphy but it has not been used since Tito sadly left the club. Tata deviated from it and Enrique is the emboidment of the boards decision to steer the club in another direction.
Watching the ex Barcelona presidents clapping in the Classico after Johan's death made me sick and reminded me of Mafia family members going to the funeral of a rival they had just had put down.
The First Team
The team is essentially the most one man reliant team in Europe. Messi is the judge, jury and executioner on the pitch and affects the club on the board room level. This is something that does not happen at other bug clubs.
With the sale of Neymar the board had an opportunity to restore some sanity and sign a coach that actually knows how to execute positinal attacks such as Sarri, Laudrup, Quique Setien, Eusabio Sacristan,Tuchel, Paco Jemez, Oscar Garcia and a few more but the board are cowards and hired Valverde as a safe option. I still have my doubts about him and his supposed wanting of Paulinho raised my suspicion.
I would have Gotten rid of players like Rakitic, Arda Turan, Paco Alcacer, Mascherano and I would have signed Roque Mesa, Jorghinho from Napoli and Sergej Milinkovic. Players that fit the profile not world class signings hyped by the media. Players who have specific strengths that can be utilised in the game of position.
If Sarri can coach Jorghinho/Diawara, Hamsik and Zielinski to have the best build up in the first 2/3rds of the pitch in the whole of Europe there is no excuse that a club that has been doing this for over 20+ years cannot execute it to an optimal level. Coaching is the biggest issue.
I would put Deulofeu on the left wing and then try and buy Dembele if a statement signing is required. Possibly sell Vermalen and try for another centre back such as Laporte or Inigo Martinez or Switch to a back 3 because Messi's runs into the centre means that an effective position game can't be utilised as there is always an overlap or a gap either in the flank or in the centre when the opposing team beats the first line of pressure from Barcelona.
This means that Barcelona cannot control the centre which is a must to dominate games effectively and not just circulate the ball in the sacrilegious U shape round the back and pass horizontally without any purpose or tactical forethought and then have the illusion of 'control' becaue you have 60%+ possession.
The board looking at Dybala baffles me as both him and Messi occupy the same Zones. Who would make the off the ball runs? Suarez cannot do it on his own and you need wingers to stretch the pitch horizontally to create space in the middle.
A basic football concept that has eluded Barcelona for the best part of 2 seasons. Neymar usually just ignored width provided by Albas overlapping run and just held on to the ball for far too long, attempted a dribble that made no sense or looked for Messi to pass to when teammates are in better positions. In fact I suspect Jordi Alba will be the happiest Neymar has left.
All in all I don't think things will get better. Messi is 30 and at the tail end of his career and there is no plan in place. The club is approaching the point that required a revolution in the 2000s. La Masia is being misuse because the head doesn't work with the body anymore.
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I think you have completely missed the point. Player can tear up the league without being the best in the league.
@SCP
Torn league up doesn't mean i said they're the best in the league. RVN and Forlan tore it up despite not being the best in their positions, Nzonzi (sp) is down the pecking order of top CM in world football yet it didn't stop him crushing it in Spain.
Maybe you should read my post again before leaping in? I haven't even mentioned Forlan, Henry, Mascherano, Pique, Suarez as other alternatives who have been successful in moving from England to a Spanish side with more "technical" needs.
We'll leave it at that since you seem to get riled up so easily at even a hint of an EPL debate (even when it isn't there)
Torn league up doesn't mean i said they're the best in the league. RVN and Forlan tore it up despite not being the best in their positions, Nzonzi (sp) is down the pecking order of top CM in world football yet it didn't stop him crushing it in Spain.
Maybe you should read my post again before leaping in? I haven't even mentioned Forlan, Henry, Mascherano, Pique, Suarez as other alternatives who have been successful in moving from England to a Spanish side with more "technical" needs.
We'll leave it at that since you seem to get riled up so easily at even a hint of an EPL debate (even when it isn't there)
Brilliant post.
Dembele would fit them perfectly. Sanchez is another good option. Available, suits them better now than he did then, and has improved since as well.
They'll sign Heung-Min Son, calling it now.
great read and analysis
Quoted to sheer ridiculousness.
Ehh... really?
No mate I understood very well, but tear up the league is a overstatement imo.
Of course I read the posts, I am not dumb you know?
You can have any football argument with me, but this is a football forum and there are different points of view, you are very sensitive when someone replies to you with different opinions.
For your information, I may have to sometimes loose my time watching bloody Wolves this season just to see how Neves and Jota perform, it is just the point I like different football styles, I am not the kind of guy who only watches Real Madrid, Barcelona or the EPL.
Football is much more than that, sorry if you don't agree with me, that's life.
Success is costly in today's age I'm afraid
They could barely cope last season. If they want to be targeting the treble every year like a club like Barca should, they'll need the firepower to replace him. Besides, it's not like Barca has a balanced squad to make up for it.
@SCP
Maybe you should try and understand my point instead of trying to tell me what I'm saying? I should know ffs.
Life is hard enough!
Maybe you should try and understand my point instead of trying to tell me what I'm saying? I should know ffs.
Life is hard enough!
Hmm, whatever, but maybe you are understanding in a wrong way my posts.