Berbatov | Fulham player

[Tomuś]

Do you not think Wenger would be against signing an older striker who moans at players around him? Kacaniclic(sp?) seems to be the new Nani and target of his mouthing. Not really sure thats for the best of Arsenal's young players.

As for Hernandez I can see why he would have been a popular replacement for RVP. Completely different to the kinds of forwards Wenger brings in though. He's either gone with the technical players or the more physical ones such as Adebayor, Bendtner or Giroud. I guess Eduardo and Podolski would be closest to Hernandez

Good argument, but what's the point of having players at top level who can't take a bit of voiced criticism? He's also the first person to acknowledge the quality play from his team-mate, so surely it's just about football. I can only imagine how frustrating can Nani be for our other players on his off-day anyday. Rooney was the most consistent Nani's critic but it went overlooked.

And Podolski is as similar to Hernandez as Nemanja Vidic is.

 

[Ekeke]

Berbatov far more often and it wasnt always directed at Nani. Older more established players like Nani will take it on the chin much of the time, Arsenal's young players might need a different approach. I'm sure the older ones would have been fine.

 

[CentreForward]

Do you not think Wenger would be against signing an older striker who moans at players around him? Kacaniclic(sp?) seems to be the new Nani and target of his mouthing. Not really sure thats for the best of Arsenal's young players.

As for Hernandez I can see why he would have been a popular replacement for RVP. Completely different to the kinds of forwards Wenger brings in though. He's either gone with the technical players or the more physical ones such as Adebayor, Bendtner or Giroud. I guess Eduardo and Podolski would be closest to Hernandez

Actually, he's taken Kaca under his wing and Fulham supporters say he's much rather a father figure for him now. And most of the Fulham players recognize that too. Things never are what they look like on the outside

 

[Varun]

Berbatov would probably have done the same thing if we'd signed him...blown hot and cold and infuriated everybody. He's a class act but not what we really need. I agree with Al that Hernandez would have been better...we signed the wrong one in Vela.

He'd be a better option than what you have though. SAF would never have sold hernandez so its a moot point.

 

[Tomuś]

Actually, he's taken Kaca under his wing and Fulham supporters say he's much rather a father figure for him now. And most of the Fulham players recognize that too. Things never are what they look like on the outside

That's what I've gathered from those 4 or 5 Fulham games I've watched this season. Ekeke has a good point about youngsters though. Especially at Arsenal.

Footballers are becoming pussies nowadays.

 

[EricaNo7]

He's a gentleman , I love him

 

[Adebesi]

Im glad he went to Fulham, I can enjoy his revival there. Really nice to see things turning around for him.

 

[Rowem]

That's what I've gathered from those 4 or 5 Fulham games I've watched this season. Ekeke has a good point about youngsters though. Especially at Arsenal.

Footballers are becoming pussies nowadays.

Bit of a sidetrack, but is Arsenal's team still considered young these days? Podolski, Arteta, Carzorla, Diaby, Arshavin, Giroud, Gervinho, Sagna, Santos, Vermaelen, Mertesacker and Koscielny are all mid-to-late 20s. Wilshere and Walcott are internationals and hardly lack experience or need to be treated like babies.

Would be interesting to see but I would be surprised if their average age of starting players this season was lower than the PL average. Certainly the oldest Arsenal team during Wenger's reign. I don't think they can keep using the "up and coming kids" excuse for their performances. They simply have a squad of fairly average players.

 

[Tomuś]

Bit of a sidetrack, but is Arsenal's team still considered young these days? Podolski, Arteta, Carzorla, Diaby, Arshavin, Giroud, Gervinho, Sagna, Santos, Vermaelen, Mertesacker and Koscielny are all mid-to-late 20s. Wilshere and Walcott are internationals and hardly lack experience or need to be treated like babies.

Would be interesting to see but I would be surprised if their average age of starting players this season was lower than the PL average. Certainly the oldest Arsenal team during Wenger's reign. I don't think they can keep using the "up and coming kids" excuse for their performances. They simply have a squad of fairly average players.

They will always use that as an excuse. Had they had Scholes they would still have banging on about how young and learning he is and that everything he needs is experience and bulking up.

Remember them boasting about playing kids before our meeting while someone calculated we were actually pretty much even/younger.

 

[Revan]

Just skipped through the thread pages from around summer. feck me, Revan really was clueless about Berbs back then. Also VoetbalWizard with his 'If we sell him, it's our first trophy' classic. Should we make a trophy parade?

Hi Tomus. I still think what I said there, and there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he would have been that good this season when he wasn't in four seasons he was there. Also, his inconsistency and his magic to dissappear in big matches is something that many people forget. I also think that Hernandez is a better player than him, while Welbeck hopefully will become but knowing that he is a local lad (and knowing his potential) there wasn't a chance that Welbeck would been sold. So with the same players as last year and with additions of Kagawa and RVP he should have gone. A win win situation for everyone.

Saying that, I think that his signing was a mistake, and yes, he was never United's quality (at-least for a team starter). He is now at his level and he is doing well, but no need to say what he could have become when we have many superior players to him.

 

[Tomuś]

Have I said we shouldn't have sold him? Have I said it once?

Was he badly and unfairly treated? yes. I can see this lazy 'maltreated my arse, being paid a top dollar' argument (I'd guess some of those are crying how Nani's been treated now).

And was he United quality? Without a shadow of a doubt, as was Veron.

I'm just glad he proved some doubters wrong anyway and I'm happy enough to watch him from time to time, that's it.

EDIT: Hi

 

[Revan]

And was he United quality? Without a shadow of a doubt, as was Veron.

I'm just glad he proved some doubters wrong anyway and I'm happy enough to watch him from time to time, that's it.

EDIT: Hi

Extremely debatable. He was almost a flop here, and he is playing in Fulham now.

And what he did exactly proved that some doubters were wrong. You mean because he scored 2 goals against Arsenal? By this logic that Villa player is a superstar too.

 

[lem8sh]

]Extremely debatable.[/B] He was almost a flop here, and he is playing in Fulham now.

And what he did exactly proved that some doubters were wrong. You mean because he scored 2 goals against Arsenal? By this logic that Villa player is a superstar too.

Not even slightly debatable

 

[Tomuś]

Extremely debatable. He was almost a flop here, and he is playing in Fulham now.

And what he did exactly proved that some doubters were wrong. You mean because he scored 2 goals against Arsenal? By this logic that Villa player is a superstar too.

By that standards, Tevez was a flop.

No, not because of him, almost single-handedly taking Arsenal on but because of playing in his own right and being extremely effective. He was supposed to be 'finished'. He also did prove his point during his last season here but that's another matter.

 

[Revan]

By that standards, Tevez was a flop.

No, not because of him, almost single-handedly taking Arsenal on but because of playing in his own right and being extremely effective. He was supposed to be 'finished'. He also did prove his point during his last season here but that's another matter.

Tevez was one of the best players in the season we win the double. He played all 120 minutes in the final (in the same game when Rooney was substituted). Berba didn't even made the bench in the final in his best year here (in the year when he was really good for about 7-8 games). Also, Tevez cost almost nothing compared to Berba. So now Tevez wasn't a flop compared to him and comfortably was the better player.

 

[Revan]

Not even slightly debatable

Then it was a conspiracy against him.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Tevez was one of the best players in the season we win the double. He played all 120 minutes in the final (in the same game when Rooney was substituted). Berba didn't even made the bench in the final in his best year here (in the year when he was really good for about 7-8 games). Also, Tevez cost almost nothing compared to Berba. So now Tevez wasn't a flop compared to him and comfortably was the better player.

Sorry but thats being very very harsh on Berba... in fact, it's just not true. 7 or 8 games?! Really?

 

[KM]

Revan is talking bollocks as per usual. Neither was Tevez was one of our best players in the double season, he was a vital part but not one of the best. Nor did Berba had 7-8 good games in that season where he was top scorer.

 

[KM]

Berbatov far more often and it wasnt always directed at Nani. Older more established players like Nani will take it on the chin much of the time, Arsenal's young players might need a different approach. I'm sure the older ones would have been fine.

Rooney was more harsh towards Nani, by that logic even Rooney wouldn't be taken by Arsenal.

 

[I'm always right]

Have I said we shouldn't have sold him? Have I said it once?

Was he badly and unfairly treated? yes. I can see this lazy 'maltreated my arse, being paid a top dollar' argument (I'd guess some of those are crying how Nani's been treated now).

And was he United quality? Without a shadow of a doubt, as was Veron.

I'm just glad he proved some doubters wrong anyway and I'm happy enough to watch him from time to time, that's it.

EDIT: Hi

An entire post of nonsense.

He was not United starting quality, his entire spell here proved that. Hernandez won't keep RVP out of the team despite how well he plays, RVP is that good. Berbatov was a decent squad player here. 3 CL finals for Berba with 2 teams, benched for 2, out of the squad for the 3rd.

He wasn't badly treated either. He lost his place to a player who was playing better and worked better for the team, that's just football.

And as for "proved people wrong", did anyone seriously not expect him to be a raving success at Fulham? I was one of his biggest critics here and always said he was far too good for Fulham.

 

[Revan]

Revan is talking bollocks as per usual. Neither was Tevez was one of our best players in the double season, he was a vital part but not one of the best. Nor did Berba had 7-8 good games in that season where he was top scorer.

Really? Tevez was our second goalscorer that season, played in almost all important games, played the entire game in the final. How he wasn't one of our best players in 2007-2008?

Berba on the other side was almost benched in every big match, played about 20 minutes in his first UCL final and wasn't even in bench for the second. Also, there was a good reason why he was benched for the second half of the season in his best year here.

I just don't get this, he was a brilliant player but he wasn't in the right team. That's just a poor excuse to deny the truth.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Really? Tevez was our second goalscorer that season, played in almost all important games, played the entire game in the final. How he wasn't one of our best players in 2007-2008?

Berba on the other side was almost benched in every big match, played about 20 minutes in his first UCL final and wasn't even in bench for the second. Also, there was a good reason why he was benched for the second half of the season in his best year here.

I just don't get this, he was a brilliant player but he wasn't in the right team. That's just a poor excuse to deny the truth.

I'd have Ronaldo, Rio, Evra, and Carrick ahead of Tevez in 07/08, and in 10/11 you could probably only have Vidic, Nani and possibly Hernandez ahead of Berba.... so it's a moot point. Regardless, "7 or 8 games" is still bollocks.

And it depends what you define as big games, Berba started both games against Liverpool that season for example, and two against City, and he came off the bench in several others, so it's not like Fergie cast him out like he did last season. Fact remains, we won the title that season thanks to Berba's goal... had he not been there, we may still have done, but we might not have done...

 

[KM]

Really? Tevez was our second goalscorer that season, played in almost all important games, played the entire game in the final. How he wasn't one of our best players in 2007-2008?

Berba on the other side was almost benched in every big match, played about 20 minutes in his first UCL final and wasn't even in bench for the second. Also, there was a good reason why he was benched for the second half of the season in his best year here.

I just don't get this, he was a brilliant player but he wasn't in the right team. That's just a poor excuse to deny the truth.

Ronaldo, Rio, Vida, Carrick, Brown all had excellent seasons. Rooney played 7 less games in the league then him and still managed to score only 2 less goals then him. He was a good player that year and made a good contribution. But one of the best players in the team?
Give me a break.

Berba and Nani basically carried the side in that season when Rooney acted like a twat and Hernandez was still settling in.

 

[Revan]

Ronaldo, Rio, Vida, Carrick, Brown all had excellent seasons. Rooney played 7 less games in the league then him and still managed to score only 2 less goals then him. He was a good player that year and made a good contribution. But one of the best players in the team?
Give me a break.

Berba and Nani basically carried the side in that season when Rooney acted like a twat and Hernandez was still settling in.

Funny fact: You mentioned many players in other areas in Tevez's case while you didn't in Berba's case. Vidic was our best player that season and you forgot it, the same way you forgot VDS, Evra and to a degree Giggs. Also, Rooney contributed as much as Berba that season and was the heart of the team when he decided to don't continue being a twat.

Finally, from 20 Berba goals, he scored 11 in 3 matches. His hat-trick against Pool and his 5 goals against Blackburn sandwiched a spell of 10 games (2 months) without scoring and we know that when Berba doesn't score he is awful. The worst part is that he had other similar spells in his career here.

 

[CentreForward]

Really? Tevez was our second goalscorer that season, played in almost all important games, played the entire game in the final. How he wasn't one of our best players in 2007-2008?

Berba on the other side was almost benched in every big match, played about 20 minutes in his first UCL final and wasn't even in bench for the second. Also, there was a good reason why he was benched for the second half of the season in his best year here.

I just don't get this, he was a brilliant player but he wasn't in the right team. That's just a poor excuse to deny the truth.

I strongly believe he competed with Rooney for the same starting spot. As a proof, he did best when Rooney was off and absent.
Berba got moved from playing deep to the top, to the hole, but SAF only cares for what he needs for his system to work. Not how to bring the best of the players available. (I know some will jump on to argue)
HE thought, Berba would fit in it, but he didn't. And the reason was mainly a weak midfield. Berba did great, perhaps as intended by SAF, but mostly when we dominated in the center. Hence the home record.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Funny fact: You mentioned many players in other areas in Tevez's case while you didn't in Berba's case. Vidic was our best player that season and you forgot it, the same way you forgot VDS, Evra and to a degree Giggs. Also, Rooney contributed as much as Berba that season and was the heart of the team when he decided to don't continue being a twat.

Finally, from 20 Berba goals, he scored 11 in 3 matches. His hat-trick against Pool and his 5 goals against Blackburn sandwiched a spell of 10 games (2 months) without scoring and we know that when Berba doesn't score he is awful. The worst part is that he had other similar spells in his career here.

... do we know this?! Since when? There are plenty of games Berba hasn't scored in where he has played well. It's a bit of an over-exaggeration to suggest otherwise.

 

[Adzzz]

I think he had the talent to be a first team starter here, but whether he had the correct mentality doesn't just seem a point of discussion for me rather a fact.

His languid style was never really going to suit United, regardless of his ability which I don't think can be questioned.

Rather an issue of commitment and willingness to adapt himself to United because United were never going to adapt itself to him.

 

[Revan]

... do we know this?! Since when? There are plenty of games Berba hasn't scored in where he has played well. It's a bit of an over-exaggeration to suggest otherwise.

Walking in the game, not contributing anything defensively and losing chances. At-least when our other strikers are of form they are sweating their shirts.

 

[Revan]

Rather an issue of commitment and willingness to adapt himself to United because United were never going to adapt itself to him.

That's a good point. I cannot understand how some fans are suggesting that Fergie should have adapted the formation for him, rather than him actually trying to adapt to coach's formation.

 

[Adebesi]

I think he had the talent to be a first team starter here, but whether he had the correct mentality doesn't just seem a point of discussion for me rather a fact.

His languid style was never really going to suit United, regardless of his ability which I don't think can be questioned.

Rather an issue of commitment and willingness to adapt himself to United because United were never going to adapt itself to him.

I just dont know why you would relentlessly pursue a particular player, to the exclusion of all other players, and over multiple windows, if that player did not already have the attributes you were looking for. Or maybe only very slight adjustments needed to their game to fit them in to what you wanted. If you go after someone like that, you would assume that person already more or less fitted the bill. Like Van Persie. Only SAF went after Berbs for longer.

To put it in an analogy, it is like buying a two seater sports car, getting it home and then saying, right, this is the car I have been dreaming about for the last 12 months, looking at on the internet, boring the shit out of all my friends about. Now, what am I going to do about these two seats, because I need to fit my wife and my son in here somehow, and that isnt taking into account all the shit we take everywhere....

At some stage you have to turn round to this guy and say, mate, perhaps you should have got a sports car with 4 seats? Or maybe you shouldnt even be buying a sports car, you have a kid, maybe you need a Touran.

I understand Berbs could have changed his style a bit more to make it work. But to me, asking a footballer to change their fundamental game, at Berbs' age, and when he is so good at what he does, makes less sense than just going out and spending your £30m on a player who is closer to what you actually need. So that is why I always say SAF has to take responsibility for the "flop", if it was one. If Berbs didnt fit the system he should have recognised that would be an issue.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Walking in the game, not contributing anything defensively and losing chances. At-least when our other strikers are of form they are sweating their shirts.

Forgetting all those cliches for a moment... what you're actually saying, Berbatov is always awful in games he doesn't score in?

Okay then...

 

[Revan]

@Adebesi

But Berbatov wasn't the only example and many times it had worked. You see players playing in entirely different positions (ex. Valencia) and doing a better job. listening to some here, you can think that SAF suddenly decidet to play him as a center back and then all went wrong.

 

[Revan]

Forgetting all those cliches for a moment... what you're actually saying, Berbatov is always awful in games he doesn't score in?

Okay then...

Not always, but many times. For 10 years I have watched United playing he is the most frustrating player (not taking into account the likes of Bebe).

 

[EricaNo7]

I just dont know why you would relentlessly pursue a particular player, to the exclusion of all other players, and over multiple windows, if that player did not already have the attributes you were looking for. Or maybe only very slight adjustments needed to their game to fit them in to what you wanted. If you go after someone like that, you would assume that person already more or less fitted the bill. Like Van Persie. Only SAF went after Berbs for longer.

To put it in an analogy, it is like buying a two seater sports car, getting it home and then saying, right, this is the car I have been dreaming about for the last 12 months, looking at on the internet, boring the shit out of all my friends about. Now, what am I going to do about these two seats, because I need to fit my wife and my son in here somehow, and that isnt taking into account all the shit we take everywhere....

At some stage you have to turn round to this guy and say, mate, perhaps you should have got a sports car with 4 seats? Or maybe you shouldnt even be buying a sports car, you have a kid, maybe you need a Touran.

I understand Berbs could have changed his style a bit more to make it work. But to me, asking a footballer to change their fundamental game, at Berbs' age, and when he is so good at what he does, makes less sense than just going out and spending your £30m on a player who is closer to what you actually need. So that is why I always say SAF has to take responsibility for the "flop", if it was one. If Berbs didnt fit the system he should have recognised that would be an issue.

This is how I feel too, Simon. Do you really spend £30m on a footballer who you plan to adapt, never knowing if he's adaptable in the first place?

 

[KM]

Funny fact: You mentioned many players in other areas in Tevez's case while you didn't in Berba's case. Vidic was our best player that season and you forgot it, the same way you forgot VDS, Evra and to a degree Giggs. Also, Rooney contributed as much as Berba that season and was the heart of the team when he decided to don't continue being a twat.

Finally, from 20 Berba goals, he scored 11 in 3 matches. His hat-trick against Pool and his 5 goals against Blackburn sandwiched a spell of 10 games (2 months) without scoring and we know that when Berba doesn't score he is awful. The worst part is that he had other similar spells in his career here.

Funny Fact: I never mentioned that Berbatov was one of our best player in that season. Try to read properly. Attacking wise he and Nani did carry our season forward in the first half.

 

[Revan]

Funny Fact: I never mentioned that Berbatov was one of our best player in that season. You did.

Berba and Nani basically carried the side in that season when Rooney acted like a twat and Hernandez was still settling in.

'Basically carrying the side' doesn't mean that he was one of our best players?

 

[KM]

'Basically carrying the side' doesn't mean that he was one of our best players?

Are you seriously arguing that Berba and Nani didn't carried the side(attacking wise) in the first half of the season when Rooney acted like a twat?

It's clear that there's no point in arguing with you, you clearly have something against Berbatov and still love Tevez deeply.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Not always, but many times. For 10 years I have watched United playing he is the most frustrating player (not taking into account the likes of Bebe).

Again, not really. There are of course games when he's been crap, but there are plenty of games when Berba hasn't scored but has still played well and contributed to the team. It's certainly not as black and white as you're making out.

 

[Revan]

Are you seriously arguing that Berba and Nani didn't carried the side(attacking wise) in the first half of the season when Rooney acted like a twat?

It's clear that there's no point in arguing with you, you clearly have something against Berbatov and still love Tevez deeply.

No, I am not saying that he didn't carry the side that season, he was a good player in that half season though inconsistent as feck. I just assume that 'carrying the team' means by default that he was one of the best.

Anyway, people here love to make judgement on posters. marcos called me a Messi hater despite I think that he is the best ever. And no, neither I am a Berba hater nor I am a Tevez lover.

 

[Siorac]

Are you seriously arguing that Berba and Nani didn't carried the side(attacking wise) in the first half of the season when Rooney acted like a twat?

When Rooney was at his most twattish, Berbatov played crap. In a two month period between September 19 and November 27 - when the Rooney saga was at its peak - he didn't score a single goal and generally played badly. He definitely did no carrying in that quite long period.

He did well in the first half of the season but his overall tally seems to distort the perceptions of his actual performance.