When i was newbie one senior member on one thread said that this kind of threads are perfect to be banned. Now i know what he meant.
"Blackface" Discussion
- Thread starter Mister_Stubbs
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The tradition itself is fine (it's just the original version of the Santa Claus story in the end), it's just the depiction of Black Pete that needs to change.
I think I had a very watered down version of that game...
The card of Peter itself had him in blackface, if I recall correctly though.
You're right. Googling it, you can see there are many versions. Some with a blond kid with soot sweeps, some with a black cat, but also some (the old ones probably) with a black person who really resembles the Black Pete character we have/had in Belgium and Holland.
With some excellent exceptions, this thread is like Christmas with Dave Hedgehog and Spudgun.
I travelled quite a loot, consider myself decently educated and NEVER heard about the blackface term. I guess as well because I am not from the anglosphere like Griezmann is not neither
In Spain you will see EVERY YEAR thousands of people blackfaced for the 3 magic wise men on the 5th of January at night. Basically we did not have black people in our country and is a very old religious tradition. Now, with the times changing, tradition is changing introducing black people that wants to take part in it. But of course you can't substitute thousands of them yet, specially in small towns as black immigration is non existent. Also in the main cities because people pay quite a lot money and of course, black people are still first generations and barely can afford or are interested in taking part in it.
I understand that in United States they find blackfacing racist and offensive due the history of it. I understand UK for its historical ties and the anglosphere forthe same and language transmition and you always keep an eye to each other, but hey, you are not the center of the fecking universe. Racism is the consideration of another race as inferior. He is french and live in Spain, he does not need to know what everybody finds offensive in other parts of the world when he is not living there. No intention, no racism. Chill out and stop to be so PC. I am among the few people in my country that have black family, lived with them as student and my cousin said that he does not understand why this being racist. And he, living in a retarded racist town of 1500 people against his mother to marry a black guy. And I mean pretty badly, knows what racism is.
Let people be and if some people have to check what blackface is, you should check as well what is considered racism in the countries where this happened and the country of the guy that did this.
Griezmann still a cnut
In Spain you will see EVERY YEAR thousands of people blackfaced for the 3 magic wise men on the 5th of January at night. Basically we did not have black people in our country and is a very old religious tradition. Now, with the times changing, tradition is changing introducing black people that wants to take part in it. But of course you can't substitute thousands of them yet, specially in small towns as black immigration is non existent. Also in the main cities because people pay quite a lot money and of course, black people are still first generations and barely can afford or are interested in taking part in it.
I understand that in United States they find blackfacing racist and offensive due the history of it. I understand UK for its historical ties and the anglosphere forthe same and language transmition and you always keep an eye to each other, but hey, you are not the center of the fecking universe. Racism is the consideration of another race as inferior. He is french and live in Spain, he does not need to know what everybody finds offensive in other parts of the world when he is not living there. No intention, no racism. Chill out and stop to be so PC. I am among the few people in my country that have black family, lived with them as student and my cousin said that he does not understand why this being racist. And he, living in a retarded racist town of 1500 people against his mother to marry a black guy. And I mean pretty badly, knows what racism is.
Let people be and if some people have to check what blackface is, you should check as well what is considered racism in the countries where this happened and the country of the guy that did this.
Griezmann still a cnut
See I think is part of the problem. It's not "PC" to call someone on what they have done wrong. You're accusing people of being so PC when you had just some extremely valid points on why Griezmann rubbing black paint over his face and dressing up as a dark skinned non descript man who may or may not play for the Globetrotters is excusable.
You then went on with the "I have black friends" line as well.
Griezmann is a star beyond France and Spain, so obviously if he does do something stupid, he has to be called on it. But I don't think he should be completely condemned. You just have to call someone on being stupid if that is what they have done.
Another example
This in Spain:
Is not racism. Is a religious tradition (that I do not share) of hundreds of years
And this in US:
Is Racism
And not because in US is racism, has to be racism all over the world
You say educate yourself in racism in US, I say educate yourself in racism in the rest of the world...that it exist, earth is not flat, and there is other countries outside US and neighbouring Mexico and Canada
This in Spain:
Is not racism. Is a religious tradition (that I do not share) of hundreds of years
And this in US:
Is Racism
And not because in US is racism, has to be racism all over the world
You say educate yourself in racism in US, I say educate yourself in racism in the rest of the world...that it exist, earth is not flat, and there is other countries outside US and neighbouring Mexico and Canada
Yeah, it's not like the Moors were ever a thing in Spain..
These days it also means not offending people when talking about race.
Not black friends, black family and what HE SAYS, not what I say because I have black family
And it is definitely PC when people pull their hairs for something that happens beyond the racial culture of their country.
He has fans in Thailand, China, anywhere. He does not need to be PC for everyone.
He has to not wear a christian cross for muslims and jews?
Non sense
Intention is key for being racist
Is not that you have an idea about which race the moors are
If anything can be said in defence of Griezmann I'd just suggest that he's probably just copying what goes on around him in Spain. Maybe this has already been mentioned but in carnivals ( 6 weeks before Easter ) and certain fiestas in Spain blacking up is done quite often. Carnivals is a fiesta where anything goes, historically maybe it was a kind of V sign to authority. Nowadays it's still acceptable to dress up as anything you want - a bishop, an Englishman (bowler hat, suit, brolly, silly accent etc ), an Arab, a Chinese person, men with beards dress as women and so on.
In a village called Alcoy/Alcoi it's done at Xmas t¡me when people dress up as the Three Kings/Wise men. They are adamant that it's a long held tradtion to do with representing the arrival of the magi ( 6th January), one of whom would be from south of Israel - that is some part of black Africa, probably Egypt or Ethiopia. When this was done in Madrid a few years ago there were protests and I think that the present mayoress of Madrid changed it and told those participating in the city procession not to black up.
In a village called Alcoy/Alcoi it's done at Xmas t¡me when people dress up as the Three Kings/Wise men. They are adamant that it's a long held tradtion to do with representing the arrival of the magi ( 6th January), one of whom would be from south of Israel - that is some part of black Africa, probably Egypt or Ethiopia. When this was done in Madrid a few years ago there were protests and I think that the present mayoress of Madrid changed it and told those participating in the city procession not to black up.
Last edited:
Given that they included North African Berbers, I'm fairly confident that they weren't white skinned blondes.
A racist act without racist intent doesn't make the offender racist.
The lack of racist intent in a racist act doesn't make it inoffensive.
When stuff like this happens the discussions tend to stop or focus around my first claim, while to me the interesting part is more how we would react when confronted by the second claim.
It seems to me like people who offend often just don't want to be called racist because their intent wasn't racist, but don't mind having a discussion to further their and others knowledge about what would be a better course.
It also seems to me like a lot of the people who take offense or sees the offense but doesn't/can't let it get to them are too busy with calling out racism (which in and of itself is needed) than to educate others about the second claim.
In this thread i've seen some ask stupid questions and been told they are stupid. I've seen others try to answer and educate. If someone is genuinely racist and look down on a race, they won't be open to discuss and change their wrong-thinking or be open to the state of not understanding but accepting.
I believe the issues are best sorted through longterm focus on education and call out those who have no interest in it rather than anyone who isn't speaking for the cause.
I myself, as mentioned before in the general am too far away from racist issues to be able to fully grasp the non-obvious cases. I try yo listen and learn, but the most important thing i can do is to accept that i won't be able to grasp it all and go on faith to other people that once they've tried to educate me on a issue, they won't think of me as someone who doesn't care for their cause.
Also, disagreeing with educators should be allowed. A idea that cannot stand to criticism shouldn't swim, so those usually doing the educating are doing themselves a disservice if they believe all their beliefs to be infallible.
Peace, don't do drugs folks.
The lack of racist intent in a racist act doesn't make it inoffensive.
When stuff like this happens the discussions tend to stop or focus around my first claim, while to me the interesting part is more how we would react when confronted by the second claim.
It seems to me like people who offend often just don't want to be called racist because their intent wasn't racist, but don't mind having a discussion to further their and others knowledge about what would be a better course.
It also seems to me like a lot of the people who take offense or sees the offense but doesn't/can't let it get to them are too busy with calling out racism (which in and of itself is needed) than to educate others about the second claim.
In this thread i've seen some ask stupid questions and been told they are stupid. I've seen others try to answer and educate. If someone is genuinely racist and look down on a race, they won't be open to discuss and change their wrong-thinking or be open to the state of not understanding but accepting.
I believe the issues are best sorted through longterm focus on education and call out those who have no interest in it rather than anyone who isn't speaking for the cause.
I myself, as mentioned before in the general am too far away from racist issues to be able to fully grasp the non-obvious cases. I try yo listen and learn, but the most important thing i can do is to accept that i won't be able to grasp it all and go on faith to other people that once they've tried to educate me on a issue, they won't think of me as someone who doesn't care for their cause.
Also, disagreeing with educators should be allowed. A idea that cannot stand to criticism shouldn't swim, so those usually doing the educating are doing themselves a disservice if they believe all their beliefs to be infallible.
Peace, don't do drugs folks.
Struggling to understand you here sorry.
I don't think Griezmann is racist for what it's worth. You don't have to be racist to be wrong.
Closer to whites than subsaharian in that matter.
White skinned is pretty close from it for a lot of them. My Grandmother being an example.
So thousands of people that they do not have any intention to be racist when they disguise for hundreds of years are wrong? when it was never an intention to be racist when they blackfaced in opposite intention that they had in US?
The people in the processions now they are wrong because KKK copied them and now they have to change.
Sorry but does not make any sense
Exactly
F365 said:
Your original statement that you didn't have blacks in Spain was complete nonsense. Why not just admit it? Or if you genuinely don't know, then learn some history. Labelling north Africans as not black or 'closer to whites' is pretty damn offensive.
geez some of the comments in this thread.
It is extreme attitude like the ones made by that dude pretending to be black and abusing others, because of which we would never get a balanced view. Even if a person has no wrong intention will be looked down because of these absolute dim wits.
It is extreme attitude like the ones made by that dude pretending to be black and abusing others, because of which we would never get a balanced view. Even if a person has no wrong intention will be looked down because of these absolute dim wits.
Oh gosh, well I guess if an African has comparatively pale skin then we'll just call them white then. I'm sure they'll be super grateful.
You sure about that? You sure it was never ever an intention to be racist, even just to have a laugh? That's part of the problem here is that some people don't even realise its an issue they have.
The people in the processions are wrong. It's the same type of people who enjoy that, that end up making monkey noises at Ashley Cole.
Agreed.
so true.Ofc I do, Im not an idiot. Just that the discussion about that is endless.
People on here would love our Sinterklaasfeest btw
Jim Jefferies bit on that was hilarious.
Why would you respond that to me?
Oh gosh, well I guess if an African has comparatively pale skin then we'll just call them white then. I'm sure they'll be super grateful.
Same question, what is the link with my post? Moors and plenty of North Africans have the same skin color than southern Europeans who are labelled white. Now, in general in Africa people identify themselves by their ethnic group not color.
feck me sideways.
Blacks in Spain? 1 in a million. It was as well a black samurai in Japan a few hundreds ago
That odd slave that did not go to the colonies and not even that when the amerindians where enslaved afterwords. In Spain in the 20th century we did not have black people. None. I will not recognize something form my own country
North Africans are non/black in their majority, is what it is and you should educate yourself as Hamitic and Semitic is a ethnia that mostly are caucasian. so is not offensive to tell the truth
And I'm out....
Oh my,
If subsaharians are mostly black and north africans are mostly caucasian what can I do? I am not saying that is better or worse being black or white. As most europe is caucasian and most japan is asian. that are facts, where is racism here?
And by the way? what being germans makes you mor knowledgable?
Its just a reminder that people from varying backgrounds and cultures tend to look at race issues differently.
José Tapiro y Baro (Spanish, 1830-1913)
Head of a moor
Oil Painting of Moorish Woman
by Jean Baptiste Vanmour (1671-1737)
Paintings of Moors by Adolf Schreyer
Painting of Moors studying a painting
https://moorishsociety.wordpress.com/tag/moorish-paintings/
Yeah, it's amazing how Spain never had any black people. For fecks sake..
Yeah, but he’s “well traveled” so he must be right.