"Blackface" Discussion

[4bars]

This Madrid?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/17/madrid-ends-blacking-up-post-christmas-tradition

This picture is from the netherlands though. there is no blacks following a white buy in Spain.

The black people in Spain tradition is the Black king and their followers (black people 2) and as I said several times, it started with no black people in society but because of the bible so not for racist motives and could not be represented by black people since a couple of decades ago.

And the term blackface it can be possible to know for people that do not know english and can not know where it comes from of the US theatric history because frankly, this kind of theatre never came in Spain and when the civil rights happened in US , in Spain we had no black people (just that odd person) so we did not care about racism or rights. We had our own shit going on with basques, catalans and so.

And I am not offended qhen someone don't understand that catalan is a language, or what happened in our history or that 11 of september is my national day and not the twin towers attach because I DO NOT EXPECT SOMEONE FROM OUTSIDE MY COUNTRY TO KNOW MY CULTURE!!

 

[4bars]

Its not quite the same symbol. The Nazi symbol always has the red, black and white with circle and orientation at a 45 degree angle. Original swastikas were never at that 45 degree angle

Yup, and sometimes someone can make some sliiiiight mistakes

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Anyone making the "black friend" defense let me just say this I have been that black friend before so many times I bit my tongue about something so I could avoid discussions like the ones that are in this thread. You do not know how much bs your black friend lets slide because they do not feel like arguing.

 

[Arruda]

Well that's simply not true. I'm not American, but I know exactly what blackface is and why it's offensive. I'm really amazed that some people haven't heard of it.

Don't fall for that bias. There are probably an immense number of things I know that you don't know, and a few of them would surprise me that you don't know them. And this is valid the other way around, and between most people. I know what blackface is, and the meaning it, but if I hadn't joined redcafe I wouldn't know. And that as very random and arbitrary decision I made.

 

[carvajal]

This picture is from the netherlands though. there is no blacks following a white buy in Spain.

The black people in Spain tradition is the Black king and their followers (black people 2) and as I said several times, it started with no black people in society but because of the bible so not for racist motives and could not be represented by black people since a couple of decades ago.

And the term blackface it can be possible to know for people that do not know english and can not know where it comes from of the US theatric history because frankly, this kind of theatre never came in Spain and when the civil rights happened in US , in Spain we had no black people (just that odd person) so we did not care about racism or rights. We had our own shit going on with basques, catalans and so.

And I am not offended qhen someone don't understand that catalan is a language, or what happened in our history or that 11 of september is my national day and not the twin towers attach because I DO NOT EXPECT SOMEONE FROM OUTSIDE MY COUNTRY TO KNOW MY CULTURE!!

At the end we will have to change the parade or accept only people with dark skin for Baltasar's place.
Although changing the perception in Carnaval will very difficult

 

[4bars]

Anyone making the "black friend" defense let me just say this I have been that black friend before so many times I bit my tongue about something so I could avoid discussions like the ones that are in this thread. You do not know how much bs your black friend lets slide because they do not feel like arguing.

Is a tricky argument the black friend.

Though there is a difference between bitting the tongue and speak clearly of "I don't care". Even so, one black friend does not make a sample big enough.

 

[matherto]

I want to know if it's okay to laugh at it, someone help me out.

Purely because I had to google it to see what Griezmann did and I saw the photo and burst out laughing at how ridiculous it is.

 

[4bars]

At the end we will have to change the parade or accept only people with dark skin for Baltasar's place.
Although changing the perception in Carnaval will very difficult

Oh and I am all up to changes if it offends people and is so easily solved. But that tradition had never been of racist origin

 

[diarm]

No, it has not in Spain, it was not depicted as racism, because blackfacing was done when it was black people in US society and depicting black people characters in a derrogatory way.

"Backfacing" in Spain (and I think in Netherlands) there was no black people when that tradition started (so not possible for black people to represent it) and it was not in a derogatory way, not definitely in Spain when the black king has as many importance than the other ones. Just a representation of the Baaaaaable So 0 racist baggage

In Madrid alone, 60,000 people signed a petition a couple of years ago to end the practise of blackfacing a white man to portray King Balthazar because they found it racist, unnecessary and offensive.

There have been countless campaigns across the Netherlands to end the process of blackfacing white Santa's helpers because people find it racist and offensive.

In both cases, blackfacing became tradition as a means of depicting black people so how does an argument that there were no black people in those countries hold up? Is the argument that it can't be racism if there are no black people present to see it?

Large numbers of people said out loud that they are offended by it. Not just in the States but in Spain, Holland and many other countries. Campaigns have been organised and traditions and practices have been adapted to reflect this need for change. Issues surrounding it have regularly made national news coverage in both countries.

To say there is no baggage surrounding the practice outside the US and UK is deliberately disingenuous.

 

[2 man midfield]

Anyone making the "black friend" defense let me just say this I have been that black friend before so many times I bit my tongue about something so I could avoid discussions like the ones that are in this thread. You do not know how much bs your black friend lets slide because they do not feel like arguing.

A bit like Lukaku's response to his chant. He didn't want to openly condemn the fans singing his name, he was forced into being a bit diplomatic.

 

[Cassidy]

It's not a defense, if you're a racist you don't hang out with black people and be best friends with two black guys, if people want to brand him ignorant then sure, but the racist stuff is just daft.

Not true, you can still hang out and be mates with them and STILL discriminate against black people. Again I'm not calling him a racist.

 

[afrocentricity]

I DO NOT EXPECT SOMEONE FROM OUTSIDE MY COUNTRY TO KNOW MY CULTURE!!

You keep saying this, which loosely translates to 'I don't have to respect your country's point of view because my country's point of view is different, y'all should respect my country's point of view tho'. Don't you find that contradictory? Wouldn't it be easier if we all respected each other's country's point of view and tried not to offend one another? You're the top poster in this thread and it all amounts to. 'I'm above all this because I'm Spanish'

If I'm mistaken and your argument is more nuanced then please.... Get to it.

Anyone making the "black friend" defense let me just say this I have been that black friend before so many times I bit my tongue about something so I could avoid discussions like the ones that are in this thread. You do not know how much bs your black friend lets slide because they do not feel like arguing.

I stopped biting my tongue nearly 20 years ago. More often than not it doesn't get explosive, your friends should understand and knock it on the head.

As for the initial thread topic, an apology goes a long way. Nobody is calling AG anything other than potentially dense and/or ignorant.

Now if he hadn't apologised, and instead decided to go on a Twitter tirade about how he's done nothing wrong and how everybody else has the problem....

 

[4bars]

In Madrid alone, 60,000 people signed a petition a couple of years ago to end the practise of blackfacing a white man to portray King Balthazar because they found it racist, unnecessary and offensive.

There have been countless campaigns across the Netherlands to end the process of blackfacing white Santa's helpers because people find it racist and offensive.

In both cases, blackfacing became tradition as a means of depicting black people so how does an argument that there were no black people in those countries hold up? Is the argument that it can't be racism if there are no black people present to see it?

Large numbers of people said out loud that they are offended by it. Not just in the States but in Spain, Holland and many other countries. Campaigns have been organised and traditions and practices have been adapted to reflect this need for change. Issues surrounding it have regularly made national news coverage in both countries.

To say there is no baggage surrounding the practice outside the US and UK is deliberately disingenuous.

The petition is not because is a racist tradition but because NOW we have black people they can portrait the character themselves, not to eliminate the character. I doubt that these theater plays the black people are dying to play in.

Still the term blackface is unknown, still the link of blackface with the more controversial US factor is completely unknown. Still the tradition is non racist because it was not black people to be offended or the society to feel empaty for black people that did not exist.

As I said is completely different the origin, background, motives and the intensity of it

 

[Devil may care]

Not true, you can still hang out and be mates with them and STILL discriminate against black people. Again I'm not calling him a racist.

A racist hates black people, they aren't friends with black people, it would make no sense, and even less sense for the black guys to hang with him.

 

[4bars]

You keep saying this, which loosely translates to 'I don't have to respect your country's point of view because my country's point of view is different, y'all should respect my country's point of view tho'. Don't you find that contradictory? Wouldn't it be easier if we all respected each other's country's point of view and tried not to offend one another? You're the to poster in this thread and it all amounts to. 'I'm above all this because I'm Spanish'

If I'm mistaken and your argument is more nuanced then please.... Get to it.

No, it means what I say, I don't pretend people to know everything from everywhere. When I am at my country I respect my social behaviour like when I go to another country I am careful of my acts and I try to know as much as I can like racial situations, languages, cultural differences, drug perception, tiping, etc... And I act accordingly.

And don't get me wrong, I/you should respect every point of view but as well understand that I MIGHT NOT KNOW your point of view and not get offended by me not knowing it

 

[Keeps It tidy]

As for the initial thread topic, an apology goes a long way. Nobody is calling AG anything other than potentially dense and/or ignorant.

Now if he hadn't apologised, and instead decided to go on a Twitter tirade about how he's done nothing wrong and how everybody else has the problem....

I am not even thinking of Griezmann anymore. I am more annoyed of the fact I think we have reached a point where there is no type of BS people will not line up to defend.

 

[SteveJ]

This isn't a tribute - it's mockery:

 

[Cassidy]

A racist hates black people, they aren't friends with black people, it would make no sense, and even less sense for the black guys to hang with him.

Dude its not true, I've lived it. (As in I have known people to call me a friend and display racist views and behaviours either later on or to others)

On the second point
1. They have to first find out they are racist.
2. Some black people don't even like their own kind.

 

[entropy]

Gotta love how fourbars refuses to see the point. He ain’t having none of that today

 

[Keeps It tidy]

A racist hates black people, they aren't friends with black people, it would make no sense, and even less sense for the black guys to hang with him.

There is white people with black spouses and black children who still hold racist views.

 

[Devil may care]

Dude its not true, I've lived it. (As in I have known people to call me a friend and display racist views and behaviours either later on or to others)

On the second point
1. They have to first find out they are racist.
2. Some black people don't even like their own kind.

I'm sorry but it just makes no sense to me to hang out with people that you dislike for whatever reason, it's bizarre.

 

[entropy]

There is white people with black spouses and black children who still hold racist views.

He already married her. What more do you want from him goddamnit!!

 

[Devil may care]

There is white people with black spouses and black children who still hold racist views.

Like I said to Cassidy I find that hard to understand, maybe it's because I think racism is fecking moronic and avoid people who are racist in general, but to have a black wife/husband and dislike black people just makes no sense to me.

 

[Cassidy]

I'm sorry but it just makes no sense to me to hang out with people that you dislike for whatever reason, it's bizarre.

I hear you, I'm just saying it happens.

 

[MTF]

You keep saying this, which loosely translates to 'I don't have to respect your country's point of view because my country's point of view is different, y'all should respect my country's point of view tho'. Don't you find that contradictory? Wouldn't it be easier if we all respected each other's country's point of view and tried not to offend one another? You're the top poster in this thread and it all amounts to. 'I'm above all this because I'm Spanish'

That's not the point. The point is that racism is an attitude which also involves intent. Intent is judged in the mind - and therefore, context - of the person who commits the act, not all potential witnesses.

To take it to the other extreme, even the actual racists express themselves in different ways across different cultures. If they find the one where their native expression isn't racist, are they all of a sudden not?

 

[entropy]

Dude its not true, I've lived it. (As in I have known people to call me a friend and display racist views and behaviours either later on or to others)

On the second point
1. They have to first find out they are racist.
2. Some black people don't even like their own kind.

Spoiler

 

[Devil may care]

I hear you, I'm just saying it happens.

Fair enough, racism, homophobia, mysogyny, like the world isn't fecked up enough without these petty and pathetic reasons to be hating each other, and now I'm probably too far off topic, Griezmann looks a fool in that pic, a real lack of awareness on his part.

 

[afrocentricity]

No, it means what I say, I don't pretend people to know everything from everywhere. When I am at my country I respect my social behaviour like when I go to another country I am careful of my acts and I try to know as much as I can like racial situations, languages, cultural differences, drug perception, tiping, etc... And I act accordingly.

And don't get me wrong, I/you should respect every point of view but as well understand that I MIGHT NOT KNOW your point of view and not get offended by me not knowing it

That's not the point. The point is that racism is an attitude which also involves intent. Intent is judged in the mind - and therefore, context - of the person who commits the act, not all potential witnesses.

To take it to the other extreme, even the actual racists express themselves in different ways across different cultures. If they find the one where their native expression isn't racist, are they all of a sudden not?

We already established that not everyone knows of the historical context of blackface during the early stages of the thread. People showed understanding of that in this very thread, @MTF his intent was obviously considered hence no one has called AG an outright racist. So again, what are you both arguing?

 

[diarm]

The petition is not because is a racist tradition but because NOW we have black people they can portrait the character themselves, not to eliminate the character. I doubt that these theater plays the black people are dying to play in.

Still the term blackface is unknown, still the link of blackface with the more controversial US factor is completely unknown. Still the tradition is non racist because it was not black people to be offended or the society to feel empaty for black people that did not exist.

As I said is completely different the origin, background, motives and the intensity of it

Again, semantics. Just because the term "blackface" was unknown (it been regularly used in mainstream national news for a few years now so you can no longer claim that) doesn't mean the practise wasn't racist.

It's easy to claim that there was no racism in Spain because there weren't many immigrants. But terms such as “Trabajo de negros” has long been common place in every day Spanish vocabulary. The terms used every day for Muslim or Asian shop owners and other such minorities seem prehistoric to us but are seen almost as a badge of honour by anti-PC Spanish.

It's all well and good claiming ignorance or non-intention because of low immigration but Spain and the Netherlands are countries steeped in a dark history of slavery and violent colonisation. Most of the English terminology surrounding racism (including the term "race" itself, and the word negro) come from Spanish, where centuries before America was even "discovered", Spain and Portugal had used the idea of weak or impure blood to justify their race based slave systems around the world.

The idea of someone in Spain, self-righteously reprimanding people from the US for being offended at racism in another country, as though racism is not and never has been an issue in Spain is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Ødegaard]

No big deal, just worth adding some context to what I had said. I wouldn’t consider it a relative minor change though.

Relative minor issue as in you can't expect every guy and gal around to keep up with it.
It's not a minor issue, clearly.
But in terms of expecting people to know of it and the historical effects it has, it's relatively minor.

You can expect most people who have internet to know something about North Korea for example, you can expect most semi-interested in world politics to know who Donald Trump & Vladimir Putin are. But you can't expect them to know who Jens Stoltenberg for example is.
Which again becomes relative because there is tons of stuff going on in any city anyone is living in that we don't necessarily know about. Hell, that's even the case for people in a town as small as the one I live in (~20k), let alone one as big as Madrid.

 

[Vato]

I didn't even see the pic yet but it can't have been more offensive than this surely?

Spoiler

 

[whatwha]

You can say what you want about black paint, blackface, and how terrible it is and a bloo bloo bloo, but Tropic Thunder wouldn't be half as funny without it.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

You can say what you want about black paint, blackface, and how terrible it is and a bloo bloo bloo, but Tropic Thunder wouldn't be half as funny without it.

Damn I can’t believe no one has mentioned Tropic Thunder yet and it’s been 28 pages.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Again, semantics. Just because the term "blackface" was unknown (it been regularly used in mainstream national news for a few years now so you can no longer claim that) doesn't mean the practise wasn't racist.

It's easy to claim that there was no racism in Spain because there weren't many immigrants. But terms such as “Trabajo de negros” has long been common place in every day Spanish vocabulary. The terms used every day for Muslim or Asian shop owners and other such minorities seem prehistoric to us but are seen almost as a badge of honour by anti-PC Spanish.

It's all well and good claiming ignorance or non-intention because of low immigration but Spain and the Netherlands are countries steeped in a dark history of slavery and violent colonisation. Most of the English terminology surrounding racism (including the term "race" itself, and the word negro) come from Spanish, where centuries before America was even "discovered", Spain and Portugal had used the idea of weak or impure blood to justify their race based slave systems around the world.

The idea of someone in Spain, self-righteously reprimanding people from the US for being offended at racism in another country, as though racism is not and never has been an issue in Spain is utterly ridiculous.

Yet again another excellent post from you. Thank you. This thread is depressingly ignorant in parts.

 

[Raoul]

The subjectivity of this topic is best summed up in the Soul Man dinner scene.

Plot: A white student (played by C. Thomas Howell) darkens his face to qualify for a black only student scholarship at Harvard. He meets a white girl and gets invited to her house to meet the family, all the while having to pretend he's black. Each family member looks at him based on their on stereotypical prejudice, which was fairly common theme for 80s movies like this (as well as others like Police Academy, Weird Science etc).

 

[JustAFan]

T

Its not quite the same symbol. The Nazi symbol always has the red, black and white with circle and orientation at a 45 degree angle. Original swastikas were never at that 45 degree angle

the Old US 45th Infantry Division up into the 1930's used the Swastika as it's symbol but that related to the Native American use of the symbol.

 

[Jippy]

close down the thread, broccolis black friend is cool with it

You've had enough green smilies, but

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Relative minor issue as in you can't expect every guy and gal around to keep up with it.
It's not a minor issue, clearly.
But in terms of expecting people to know of it and the historical effects it has, it's relatively minor.

You can expect most people who have internet to know something about North Korea for example, you can expect most semi-interested in world politics to know who Donald Trump & Vladimir Putin are. But you can't expect them to know who Jens Stoltenberg for example is.
Which again becomes relative because there is tons of stuff going on in any city anyone is living in that we don't necessarily know about. Hell, that's even the case for people in a town as small as the one I live in (~20k), let alone one as big as Madrid.

Ok let's not make perculiar comparisons, he does live in Madrid after all.

In any case the reaction of the people from Spain in this thread suggests they do not think blackface is that big of deal there regardless of Madrid adapting the Three Kings parade, so that's another reason to be forgiving of Griezmann. He's fast becoming a global mega star, with that comes the expectations beyond just Spain.

 

[4bars]

We already established that not everyone knows of the historical context of blackface during the early stages of the thread. People showed understanding of that in this very thread, @MTF his intent was obviously considered hence no one has called AG an outright racist. So again, what are you both arguing?

If you keep asking (post before that) is that is not well stablished

 

[Arruda]

The subjectivity of this topic is best summed up in the Soul Man dinner scene.

Plot: A white student (played by C. Thomas Howell) darkens his face to qualify for a black only student scholarship at Harvard. He meets a white girl and gets invited to her house to meet the family, all the while having to pretend he's black. Each family member looks at him based on their on stereotypical prejudice, which was fairly common theme for 80s movies like this (as well as others like Police Academy, Weird Science etc).

There was an episode in Seinfeld when Kramer met a black woman and was invited to dinner with her family. On the same day he falls asleep in a tanning machine and becomes extremely tanned. It ends with the father saying "I thought you said you were bringing a white boy. I don't see a white boy, I see a fool", which in retrospective I think they interpreted as him "blackfacing" on purpose.