Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

Absolutely this.

And to repeat for God knows how many times - there is no choice of Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit available to the UK no matter how much some of you guys on here bitch about it.

The eventual type and terms of BREXIT is entirely in the hands of the EU and, then, how many of the REMAINERS will then knuckle down and make the most of what ever the UK is able to make of its future outside the EU.

The alternative, of course, is for those still in the UK who think their lives will collapse after BREXIT is to come live here inside the EU - there are plenty of us here on this thread who made that decision in the past. I don't think any of us actually regret it, although there are couple of us who dislike the EU ( not the countries where we live ) with same the passion as the rest of you love it.

There’s no denying that the EU hold most of the cards. Having said that, it’s the UK who decides what sort of relationship it wants with the EU. No one is kicking the UK out of the EU. No one is kicking the UK out of the single market or the customs market either.

Unlike what Brexiteers say the EU is not a one fits all union. There are various options one can choose which include EEA membership, the Swiss model, Custom’s Union membership and CETA. The only 2 restrictions the EU had insisted upon is for the UK to settle its debts and to adhere to an off the shelf solution. The latter isn’t even a restriction but an advice. Trade deals are complex and reinventing the wheel will take years, something the UK doesn’t have.

Following the Brexit win, the UK should have gone to the EU with a simple choice. The people had spoken against the present deal and unless there are changes in it then the UK will have no choice but to leave. That would put the ball in the EU court were they either choose to give the government more concessions which would pave the way for a second referendum or they would have to negotiate a lengthy and painful divorce no one really want and with no idea when this divorce proceeding will start. I believe that Boris flirted around this idea fairly early in the Brexit campaign.

Instead the UK is left with a mess, with article 50 being activated without any plan what to do next and with the UK basically closing the door on everything (single market, customs market etc)

 

[711]

You don't think the UK Government has any say? You think it's all a show? Just a massive game being played by every UK Politician to win and lose votes?

I don't want to talk about it, but my job depends on being in the single market (although I'm looking for a new one).

Really don't have a clue what you're on about really.

I'm not quite sure what's so hilarious, but then the smilie thing rarely works. I think what Full bodied is saying is indeed that it is for the EU to decide the nature of any deal short of a hard brexit. Looking at free trade, if they decide to ask for a financial or political price that's too high for the UK to pay then that's the end of the matter. The same goes for the customs union or anything else, it's really in their hands. Pre-referendum much was made of the German need to sell us BMWs, well they may consider that, or they may decide their own political project is more important, but whichever that's their choice, the UK is merely waiting to find out what that choice is.

 

[C3Pique]

Much easier for me to say than for you to believe, but genuine sympathies if you think your job is at risk.

But I'll repeat what I said earlier - if you think that your job is at risk because you think that your employer is going to be affected by Tariffs ( both into the UK and out of the UK ) for cars and car components, then that really is in the EU's hands. We all know that the UK would happily do a deal tonight to continue Tariff free import / export of vehicles and vehicle components with the EU.

Will the EU accept that ?

Well they might, as Tariffs on vehicle imports / exports between the UK and the EU will almost certainly hurt French / German / Swedish / etc car manufacturers more than the UK car maunfacturers. And certainly truck manufacturers. Cars imported into the EU from Korea, for example, no longer have Import Tariffs.

On the other hand, they might not. As a guide, the EU impose zero Import Tariffs on cars and car components from Korea, but betwen 4% and 10% on cars and components from Japan. They also impose Import Tariffs of 10% on cars and components imported from USA even though in the USA, cars manufactured in the EU have only 2% Import Tariffs - which is obviously what pisses of Trump when he goes on about a level playing field.

So there's no consistency in what the EU does in this respect to think one way or the other what will happen.

I'll wish you good luck - even though I do take exception to your comment of due to the selfishness and xenophobia of a large group of either poorly educated or poorly advised people as the description of people who didn't happen to share the same views as yourself at the Referendum. Such as myself !

Here's the rub. The UK is nowhere near as capable (or willing it seems) of getting a tariff free deal as the other countries, as no doubt concessions will have to be made. All this no deal is a good deal stuff is bollocks and just indicates that the Tories are not willing to negotiate on any points, not that they care but a no deal situation will render businesses across the country uncompetitive overnight.

Also when I say a large group of people I don't refer to all leave voters, just the ones who think voting leave will mean they don't see brown people on their high street, or ones like my mum who believe they're being ruled by Germany despite not being able to point to one example of EU meddling in her life.

 

[rcoobc]

I'm not quite sure what's so hilarious, but then the smilie thing rarely works. I think what Full bodied is saying is indeed that it is for the EU to decide the nature of any deal short of a hard brexit. Looking at free trade, if they decide to ask for a financial or political price that's too high for the UK to pay then that's the end of the matter. The same goes for the customs union or anything else, it's really in their hands. Pre-referendum much was made of the German need to sell us BMWs, well they may consider that, or they may decide their own political project is more important, but whichever that's their choice, the UK is merely waiting to find out what that choice is.

That's just essentially saying that the EU has a de facto veto in any area, because they can make the negotiations so ridiculous that they break down completely. It's not the same thing as saying that "there is no choice of Hard Brexit or Soft Brexit available to the UK."

Because of course there is. (I will reply to his next post in a moment).

You've mentioned free trade, but free trade should have nothing to do with a soft or hard brexit at all. A free trade deal is inevitable, as it benefits both sides, the only question is in time lines.

 

[711]

The EU does have a de facto veto, yes, that is what I'm saying, whether we consider it ridiculous or not.

I don't suppose there's a dictionary definition of soft brexit, but I think most people do think of it as involving a degree of free trade, however if you don't then fair enough.

There will no doubt be all sorts of deals in the decades and centuries to come, but I'd worry about the next few years first.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Full bodied red

Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.
If Brexiters are so keen to leave the single market why are they so interested in getting a deal, why not just leave, why not last year, why not now, just go - after all supposedly the EU needs the UK more.
It is just an endless stream of nonsense.

Re the future, under normal circumstances people have at least a vague idea of what the future holds, there are some things that one knows are a given , here there is nothing, no certainty whatsoever.

Re Morocco, they aren't in Europe, the EU want the countries who want to deal with the EU to be up to the standards of the EU and help them to achieve this.

For the remainers to be right, remember they don't want to be right, is for the predictions to become reality and so far it is exactly as I thought other than the timing which is being so dragged out by the government.

 

[rcoobc]

Please educate us then.

What is a 'Soft Brexit'?

A 'Soft Brexit' could mean many things, but usually people refer to either remaining in the 'Customs Union' or staying in the 'Single Market' (or having access to the Single Market).

But wait. What is the Single Market? What is the Customs Union? What is a Free Trade Agreement? I'll give you my own definitions, trying to do so as plainly as possible.

Single Market - The Single Market allows any person or business to work and sell their goods and services anywhere within the European Single Market. I.e. If you are a UK Plumber, you can probably work in the EU too. If you are a UK airline, you can fly anywhere in the EU. If you are a UK Electrician, you can work in the EU. If you sell and install wind turbines, or are a lawyer or accountant, you can with in the EU. The Single Market isn't just about trade, it's about selling your services (either as an individual or as a company) anywhere with this single market.

Customs Unions - A Customs Union is simply an area where goods (not services) are free to move about without (many) checks or tariffs. This means that if some Chinese socks are brought into Felixstowe, they can sold in Paris or Rome without any further payments or checks. Members of a Customs Union will nearly always have a common external tariff; i.e. American goods coming into the EU will pay the same amount whether they are coming into Germany or the UK.

Free Trade Agreement and Free Trade Area - a Free Trade Agreement is simply an agreement between two or more countries that allow (most) goods to pass between the two countries without tariffs and charges being placed upon them. i.e. Can an Apply Laptop, made in China or Taiwan, be brought into the UK without paying an additional import duty,?

Before we move on, let's make sure we are clear on the differences.

The EU has a Free Trade Agreement with Mexico. (most) Mexican goods can be brought into the EU without paying import duty. Mexico also has a free trade agreement with the United States. US goods can be brought into Mexico also without paying import duty.

So can US goods be brought into Mexico for free, and then subsequently brought into the EU for free? Well no. The US, Mexico and the EU all have a separate customs areas, so goods entering and leaving are checked, which includes checking the country of origin.

Three European countries; Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein remain part of the European Economic Area, which means they are part of the EU single market, but not part of the customs union. Instead, along with Switzerland, they negotiate their own free trade deals, notably including a free trade deal with Canada since 2008.

Now let's have a look at the government's negotiating position.

But I want to be clear. What I am proposing cannot mean membership of the single market.

We do not seek membership of the single market. Instead we seek the greatest possible access to it through a new, comprehensive, bold and ambitious free trade agreement.

That is why our objectives include a proposed free trade agreement between Britain and the European Union, and explicitly rule out membership of the EU’s single market.

And because we will no longer be members of the single market, we will not be required to contribute huge sums to the EU budget.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...ating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

In total, I think Theresa May has said that we are leaving the Single Market 8 times.

That means I do not want Britain to be part of the Common Commercial Policy and I do not want us to be bound by the Common External Tariff. These are the elements of the Customs Union that prevent us from striking our own comprehensive trade agreements with other countries. But I do want us to have a customs agreement with the EU.

Whether that means we must reach a completely new customs agreement, become an associate member of the Customs Union in some way, or remain a signatory to some elements of it, I hold no preconceived position. I have an open mind on how we do it. It is not the means that matter, but the ends.

At first she seems a lot softer on the Customs Union, but actually, she isn't. By saying that she doesn't want to remain in the Common Commercial Policy and Common External Tariff, she's essentially said that she wants to leave the Customs Union. Yes she wants to have a broad customs treaty with the EU, which is fine (Norway does the same), but in effect we're leaving the Customs Union too.

So let's answer the question; does Theresa May want a Soft Brexit.

Answer; No. She wants to leave the customs union and single market.

Now hopefully you've seen several people in this thread commenting on how their jobs require us being part of the single market. But wait doesn't being part of the Single Market mean that we are, in effect, not leaving the EU???

No. Not really. This is from Dan Hannan, Leaver in Chief of the Conservative Party

But the really monstrous lie – the lie constantly repeated by BSE – is that Norway must apply “three quarters of EU laws”.

Three quarters? Let’s look at the figures. Using the EFTA Secretariat’s official statistics, a study found that, between 2000 and 2013, Norway applied 4,724 EU legal instruments. Over the same period, the EU itself adopted 52,183 legal instruments. That’s not 75 per cent; it’s nine per cent.

Iceland, like Norway, is a member of the European Economic Area. Last week, in reply to a parliamentary question, it found that, between 1994 and 2014, it had adopted 6,326 of 62,809 EU legal acts – ten per cent.

Incidentally, why does the Prime Minister keep using Norway as his example when he is actually in, you know, Iceland? Presumably because the Icelandic government, unlike the Norwegian, reflects its voters’ opposition to EU membership. Its prime minister, the centrist Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson, cheerfully declares that Iceland is doing very well as a result of being outside the EU, owes its extraordinary recovery from the banking crash to that freedom, and has no intention of joining.

Iceland and Norway have ostensibly similar deals, but Norway chooses to opt into many more EU initiatives than Iceland does. Its per capita contributions are therefore higher: not because it is obliged to pay more, but because it wants to participate in, for example, common international aid projects.

I'm getting off topic here, but hopefully I've shown that the UK has no position on hard or soft brexit is a fallacy. The current UK Government wants hard brexit.

 

[rcoobc]

I do admire how remainers are spinning the election result to mean a rejection of hard brexit. Firstly Corbyn and the labour party said brexit meant leaving the single market and customs union which as far as I can make out is hard brexit. So that means 85% of the electorate voted for hard brexit parties at the election (tories, labour, ukip). Everyone had the chance to vote lib dem or greens to support a soft brexit or a complete u turn on the result.

Also the way the left wing press are gleefully celebrating the collapse of ukip. Ukip were inconsequential in this election because leavers presumed they would be getting brexit as was set out from the beginning. Do they believe that if promises on brexit are now reneged on by the political elite that pissed off leave voters wont swarm back to ukip in their millions?

I think we (both the leavers and remainers) are seeing what we want to see in Labour's policy. They've said that immigration will fall. Probably. Maybe. They've said we'll leave the single market. Probably. Maybe.

But essentially you are right. Labour have said that we wont be part of the single market (except on occasions where they said otherwise)So probably you are right 85% of voters chose hard brexit of some description.

 

[Full bodied red]

Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.


It was all there in Project Fear. And plenty more as well which has still not happened. But still they decided to vote LEAVE.

So if you're hinting / suggesting that 52% of the UK voted LEAVE because of immigration, then I'll agree that undoubtedly some of those 52% obviously did, but are you suggesting that all 52% did ? That 52% of the UK are racist and / or xenophobic ?

It might seem that way for some of those who voted REMAIN, but I simply refuse to believe it in the same way that I don't believe that 25+% of French people ( which is the number who voted FN at the Presidentials) are racist and / or xenophobic.

I might be wrong, of course, but if I am then I'd argue that racism / xenophobia is an even bigger problem here than in the UK, because in the UK the Referendum vote was about the EU. Here it was about whether we wanted a racist President and her mates.

 

[Pexbo]

I think we (both the leavers and remainers) are seeing what we want to see in Labour's policy. They've said that immigration will fall. Probably. Maybe. They've said we'll leave the single market. Probably. Maybe.

But essentially you are right. Labour have said that we wont be part of the single market (except on occasions where they said otherwise)So probably you are right 85% of voters chose hard brexit of some description.

To phrase that better, I think 85% of voters chose a party that supports a hard brexit. As the two main parties were supporting a hard Brexit, Brexit itself became a bit of a side issue with voters choosing between public spending or austerity policies. It was only really the Green Party who were pushing a soft Brexit anyway. Lib Dems were trying for a no-Brexit first and foremost and offering a second referendum.

FWIW, I actually believe we will get a second referendum once the terms are agreed. It's going to be a safety cushion of sorts. The only reason it's been denied outright is because it gives us a weaker negotiating hand as the EU can play hardball and offer us the worst deal (no deal) possible in the knowledge that a second referendum on bad terms would almost certainly see us remain in the EU. Does anyone really believe that the Government isn't capable of u-turning and deciding they will call an election referendum after all?

It could even be the Governments plan all along, considering how many remainers they have in there, get a terrible deal, put it to a vote and remain likely wins and that's that for the next 30 years.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Re - what they voted for - does the average person knows what "leaving the single market" actually means in real terms - that sterling will fall, prices will increase, inflation will go up, unemployment increases and an endless stream of other disadvantages - is this what they really voted for - I wasn't born yesterday - this was not the main reason.


It was all there in Project Fear. And plenty more as well which has still not happened. But still they decided to vote LEAVE.

So if you're hinting / suggesting that 52% of the UK voted LEAVE because of immigration, then I'll agree that undoubtedly some of those 52% obviously did, but are you suggesting that all 52% did ? That 52% of the UK are racist and / or xenophobic ?

It might seem that way for some of those who voted REMAIN, but I simply refuse to believe it in the same way that I don't believe that 25+% of French people ( which is the number who voted FN at the Presidentials) are racist and / or xenophobic.

I might be wrong, of course, but if I am then I'd argue that racism / xenophobia is an even bigger problem here than in the UK, because in the UK the Referendum vote was about the EU. Here it was about whether we wanted a racist President and her mates.

I didn't say they all are , I said the main reason and no pretending otherwise will change that. Sure there are racist and xenophobes in both countries, but the racism and xenophobia in France is mainly directed towards people from outside the EU, not inside it.

In the aftermath of London Bridge - a member of my family posted this on a site called "I am proud to be English" - we need to get Brexit moving so our children and grandchildren have a save country to live in
Amongst thousands of similar sort of crap on tons of sites and comments on newspapers

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

 

[Full bodied red]

What is a 'Soft Brexit'?

A 'Soft Brexit' could mean many things, but usually people refer to either remaining in the 'Customs Union' or staying in the 'Single Market' (or having access to the Single Market).

But wait. What is the Single Market? What is the Customs Union? What is a Free Trade Agreement? I'll give you my own definitions, trying to do so as plainly as possible.

Before we move on, let's make sure we are clear on the differences.

The EU has a Free Trade Agreement with Mexico. (most) Mexican goods can be brought into the EU without paying import duty. Mexico also has a free trade agreement with the United States. US goods can be brought into Mexico also without paying import duty.

So can US goods be brought into Mexico for free, and then subsequently brought into the EU for free? Well no. The US, Mexico and the EU all have a separate customs areas, so goods entering and leaving are checked, which includes checking the country of origin.

Three European countries; Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein remain part of the European Economic Area, which means they are part of the EU single market, but not part of the customs union. Instead, along with Switzerland, they negotiate their own free trade deals, notably including a free trade deal with Canada since 2008.

Now let's have a look at the government's negotiating position.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...ating-objectives-for-exiting-the-eu-pm-speech

In total, I think Theresa May has said that we are leaving the Single Market 8 times.

At first she seems a lot softer on the Customs Union, but actually, she isn't. By saying that she doesn't want to remain in the Common Commercial Policy and Common External Tariff, she's essentially said that she wants to leave the Customs Union. Yes she wants to have a broad customs treaty with the EU, which is fine (Norway does the same), but in effect we're leaving the Customs Union too.

So let's answer the question; does Theresa May want a Soft Brexit.

Answer; No. She wants to leave the customs union and single market.

Now hopefully you've seen several people in this thread commenting on how their jobs require us being part of the single market. But wait doesn't being part of the Single Market mean that we are, in effect, not leaving the EU???

No. Not really. This is from Dan Hannan, Leaver in Chief of the Conservative Party

I'm getting off topic here, but hopefully I've shown that the UK has no position on hard or soft brexit is a fallacy. The current UK Government wants hard brexit.

Very well and very eloquently put.

But I'll still stick to my guns and say that the EU has all the cards - even if the UK Government wanted a Soft Brexit, of whatever shape, it would be the EU who will decide, not the UK. That the Government currently seems to be chasing a Hard Brexit is probably a negotiating strategy based on ' they need us as much as we need them '- but which may backfire, of course, although many in the Conservative party would see that as a success, ironically.

Of the different options, I said on here a couple of weeks ago that if the EU really does want / need the UK as a Trading Partner, then the obvious option is for them to offer to the UK a DCFTA similar to the one it has with Ukraine and which, I think, would be accepted by almost everyone in the UK. But the UK can't demand this, so whether they will is in the EU's hands, not the UK's hands, and which is why I say the EU effectively has all the cards.

 

[Full bodied red]

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

I think it's this one, isn't it ?

 

[rcoobc]

I think the real question everyone needs to ask themselves is; what do you want out of Brexit?

Option 0 - Cancel Article 50

Negotiate some sort of "associate member access";
- We lose our vetoes on things like EU Armies, EU integration and any other EU related matters that don't directly affect us.
- We no longer would have MEPs
- We keep the Single Market
- Maybe we get back agriculture or fishing or both
- Maybe we even get to negotiate our own trade deals... whilst the EU can *also* negotiate on our behalf.
- We keep paying into the EU budget

Best Brexit - No Brexit

Option 1 - Global Britain

Free trade deals with the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada.

Bringing the commonwealth back together. Allowing most of our food to be bought from the Commonwealth instead of the EU.

Cutting red tape for foreign companies to work here. Allowing them to use the UK as a springboard for EU access. Use Brexit, not to cut Britain off from the world, but to try and open it up!

Best Brexit - Keep the Single Market. Have our own Customs Union. (soft)

Option 2 - Keep the peace in Northern Ireland

Stay in the Customs Union, allowing Northern Ireland to have no visible border with the ROI.

The rest doesn't really matter. Ireland is covered under our own treaties anyway.

Best Brexit - Keep the Customs Union. (medium)

Option 3 - Xenophobic Immigration Cut

Get us out the single market.

Get us out of EU jurisdiction.

The rest doesn't really matter

Best Brexit - Reject everything (hard)

Option 5 - UKIP

Supremacy of Parliament, full control of migration, a "maritime exclusive economic zone" around the UK's coastline, a seat on the World Trade Organisation, no "divorce" payment to the EU and for Brexit to be "done and dusted" by the end of 2019.

Let the Article 50 clock countdown and start again from scratch.

Best Brexit - War

My personal Brexit would be somewhere between Option 0 and Option 1.

I think Article 50 is a trap we should never have fallen into. A £100bn divorce bill? Isn't that insane? Most of the things we are paying for we want to keep anyway.

Northern Ireland needs to have it's own special treatment; but only really in that it would stay within the EU Customs Union (which shouldn't be too difficult).

Aside from that, take the Norway option and regain control over fisheries and agriculture whilst keeping the single market.

The only two other areas we need to regain control over are benefits and taxation.

We must be able to stop people from claiming benefits here until they have worked here for five years. An EU-wide treaty change that allowed all 28 EU nations to regain control in this area could even be possible.

On everything else the EFTA "Global Britain" route is perfect

 

[Pexbo]

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

I think it's this one, isn't it ?

Ever considered that people have different ideas of what "being English" is?

 

[rcoobc]

Of the different options, I said on here a couple of weeks ago that if the EU really does want / need the UK as a Trading Partner, then the obvious option is for them to offer to the UK a DCFTA similar to the one it has with Ukraine and which, I think, would be accepted by almost everyone in the UK. But the UK can't demand this, so whether they will is in the EU's hands, not the UK's hands, and which is why I say the EU effectively has all the cards.

Maybe that would be the preferable option for many (free trade + access to the single market in a few areas), but is the best option we can get really the same that two countries that have had Russian induced wars, and one country that wants EU Membership anyway, has got?

Even if the EU accept our "a la carte" Single Market Access, which they repeatedly said they won't, is that really the best deal we could get?

Why not go for Global Britain?

 

[rcoobc]

Wonder if there is a site called "I am ashamed to be English"?

I think it's this one, isn't it ?

Who here is ashamed to be English?

Most of us want the UK to be hugely successful, and the best way to do that, for me, is a Global Britain with our own trade deals and being part of the EU Single Market.

 

[lewwoo]

To phrase that better, I think 85% of voters chose a party that supports a hard brexit. As the two main parties were supporting a hard Brexit, Brexit itself became a bit of a side issue with voters choosing between public spending or austerity policies. It was only really the Green Party who were pushing a soft Brexit anyway. Lib Dems were trying for a no-Brexit first and foremost and offering a second referendum.

FWIW, I actually believe we will get a second referendum once the terms are agreed. It's going to be a safety cushion of sorts. The only reason it's been denied outright is because it gives us a weaker negotiating hand as the EU can play hardball and offer us the worst deal (no deal) possible in the knowledge that a second referendum on bad terms would almost certainly see us remain in the EU. Does anyone really believe that the Government isn't capable of u-turning and deciding they will call an election referendum after all?

It could even be the Governments plan all along, considering how many remainers they have in there, get a terrible deal, put it to a vote and remain likely wins and that's that for the next 30 years.

I think there is definitely something in the theory that the tories and may threw the election on purpose to either let labour sort it all out or at worse reduce her majority so she can back track on brexit and remain in the single market. It just doesn't make sense that a career politician and her cabinet can throw away such a lead by mistake with such an awful lead up to the election. I know lets bring back fox hunting and take away everyone's inheritance by taking their parents homes. That will definitely win over the working classes!

 

[Kentonio]

Who here is ashamed to be English?

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

 

[rcoobc]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I know what you mean, but I'd stick to being ashamed of a proportion of the 52%, rather thsb the whole bunch.

I've experienced the very worst of racist Britain recently. But i am hopeful that most leavers are not like that

 

[lewwoo]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

 

[Silva]

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

I'm pretty sure the trade deal they want is "we send back the brown people and you send us some stuff, thnx"

 

[Kentonio]

I know what you mean, but I'd stick to being ashamed of a proportion of the 52%, rather thsb the whole bunch.

I've experienced the very worst of racist Britain recently. But i am hopeful that most leavers are not like that

I don't think they're all racist, but I do thing they voted for an extremely stupid thing. It's just hard not to be angry. I've never had this kind of fury last for this long, its as strong now as it was 12 months ago.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I understand you are angry but I've never understood the leave voters being racist argument. Last time I checked the vast majority of countries that make up the eu are of the same race as the British. Xenophobic possibly. I would argue wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries and the rest of the world makes them less racist.

Yes it's xenophobic, rather than racist with EU citizens. I would actually be interested to know what some Leavers actually believe will happen regarding immigration. I know it sounds stupid but I'm convinced a good number actually think this affects immigration from elsewhere in the world, yes it's that dumb.

Regarding wanting to forge trade deals with commonwealth countries, trade already exists with those countries. Very interested to know what additional products the Uk are going to sell and why they would want to pay higher prices for purchases just because it's the commonwealth with massively increased transport costs and extended time delays.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

Agreed, my situation is different to yours and my life is not going to be decided by some ignorant fool unlike yours but I'm furious for people like you and personally embarrassed by the whole stupid thing.

 

[rcoobc]

I don't think they're all racist, but I do thing they voted for an extremely stupid thing. It's just hard not to be angry. I've never had this kind of fury last for this long, its as strong now as it was 12 months ago.

The more I look at it, the more impossible the vote was.

So firstly, I'm a big remoaner, and let me just say the EU has some serious structural and non-structural problems.

I mean, you just have to look at some of things that got brought up a lot in the run up to the election;

Child benefit for EU migrants. EU migrants can claim child benefit for children not living in Britain. David Cameron failed to change that in EU negotiation (although he got the payment to vary on where you live). France are allowed to only pay for children in France, so how is that fair? It breeds resentment.

Road Tax. Every other country asks people using their roads to pay for them; mostly using "tolls" although Benelux had a "Vignette" system. For a long time, Britain didn't ask EU companies and nationals to pay, but British companies and nationals did have to pay (something UK businesses have asked the UK Gov to correct for years). So the UK government came up with a plan; they cut the standard Road Tax by £1000 for HGVs, and created a Road Levy to also be paid by *all* HGVs of the same £1000. So EU Companies finally have to pay to use our roads, just like in every other country. Fine right? Well it was until the EU decided it might be illegal.

VAT. The reason we couldn't zero rate sanitary products was because of the EU. Ireland can though, because they were doing it a long time ago.

Democratic Deficit. A key principle of democracy is accountability. How do you vote against an EU law you don't like being imposed? The current system of an EU Parliament and an EU Council of Ministers certainly works, in theory, but in practice, it gives rise to accusations of being anti-democratic. Much of this is the UK's fault for what it's worth. We could have used the STV to elect MEPs, but chose for Closed List Party PR. But it's a difficult system to really wrap your head around.

Unintended Consequences of Laws. This is massively overstated by the likes of the Daily Mail and the express, but is somewhat true. The EU introduce laws, like fishing quotas, max CO2 on cars, and so on. These well-intended laws have unintended consequences, such as fish being thrown back into the sea and diesel cars being bought and NOx emissions being understated. Mostly this is the UK governments fault; they are the ones that implemented it. But it does give the impression of being slow to react when silly things go wrong.

Immigration. 250,000 EU migrants arrive each and the UK Government cant stop it. This doesn't scare me, it excites me! But for a leaver with a slightly xenophobic attitude, you can see why they might be frightened.

That's not to mention Greece or the Migration Crisis.

Do I think that's enough for us to leave the EU? No. We should have worked with them to fix it.

 

[Full bodied red]

Who here is ashamed to be English?

Most of us want the UK to be hugely successful, and the best way to do that, for me, is a Global Britain with our own trade deals and being part of the EU Single Market.

I'm not so much 'Global Britain' as 'Anti-EU'.

I'm sort of proud, happy and sad all at the same time that it is the UK who had the balls to call the EU's bluff.

Proud because I'm English ( mostly ) and it's nice to see the UK again standing up for itself at long last.

Happy that someone has finally poked the EU in the eye to remind them that peoples' lives matter more than a bunch of self-serving professional politicos and their 'Project'

And sad because it might have to be the UK which suffers to ultimately benefit the other 27.

It's the last one, the sadness, which makes me want something agreed, quickly, and the Ukranian model is available ' off the shelf ' so could avoid the very worst possibilities of BREXIT.

I'm pretty sure the trade deal they want is "we send back the brown people and you send us some stuff, thnx"

Well there we go - the voice of reasoned debate.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Hasn't the UK stood up against the EU for a number of times anyway? I mean we are not part or have a rebate against a number of aspects that are mandatory for most EU members.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

I have been for the last year. Beyond ashamed in fact. I used to promote England and the English to anyone from other countries who I met, telling them a lot of the stereotypes were wrong and we're a country of incredibly warm, friendly people after you get past the initial social barrier. Now I feel like I've spent years basically lying to them.

A majority of voters decided they'd rather slam the door in the face of the rest of Europe and a vast number of them did it because they're stupid little racists. Most of the rest because they're just stupid. Because when damn near every expert stands up and tells you a course of action would be utterly disasterous, and you decide you know better than them all and do it anyway, you're either a visionary or an idiot. Setting aside the 0.01% chance that something magically turns Brexit into a giant success (despite there being no rational or logical reason why that should be), that makes the decision idiotic.

About the only Brexit supporter who I have even a sliver of respect for on the issue are the really extreme ones. The ones who actually admit that they don't care about the consequences, because being out of the EU matters more to them than any consequence. I think those people are fecking nutjobs, but at least they're honest nutjobs.

The rest can get to feck quite frankly. They are about to take away my EU citizenship, which is something priceless to me. There will be absolutely no forgiveness for that on my part.

I know people who voted Leave who didn't agree with the beaurochracy of the EU. Many people who voted on immigration weren't necessarily racist. They've seen their schools, hospitals and public services under massive strain because the increase in numbers wasn't been matched by an increase in investment. Average incomes haven't been going up either and more immigration generally means cheaper labour and lower wages.

It's Cameron's fault for offering a referundum on something experts should decide.

Now from an economic point of view I bet the Tories are now thinking "well if we don't have a free trade zone thats a nice little stealth tax for us"

 

[Silva]

It's the last one, the sadness, which makes me want something agreed, quickly, and the Ukranian model is available ' off the shelf ' so could avoid the very worst possibilities of BREXIT.

This is worse than the time David Moyes told our defenders to watch videos of Jagielka.

 

[Full bodied red]

This is worse then the time David Moyes told our defenders to watch videos of Jagielka.

How so ?

 

[rcoobc]

We are meant to be one of the largest countries in the world, and part of the largest single market in the world.

And we're opting for something given to countries coming out of war with Russia

A bit of a backwards step

 

[Kentonio]

I know people who voted Leave who didn't agree with the beaurochracy of the EU.

Lots of people think the bureaucracy of the EU is cumbersome and flawed. That doesn't rationally lead to 'we should leave the EU'. By all apparent indicators its like deciding the boat is leaky so you're going to jump in the sea instead.

Many people who voted on immigration weren't necessarily racist. They've seen their schools, hospitals and public services under massive strain because the increase in numbers wasn't been matched by an increase in investment.

Except they haven't for the most part. Which was why some of the areas with the very highest Leave turnouts were places with some of the lowest levels of immigration. Does that stuff happen? Sure it does, but largely because the government kept cutting funding for essential services and then trying to distract the public.

Average incomes haven't been going up either and more immigration generally means cheaper labour and lower wages.

Average incomes havent been going up because companies initially held back to allow for recovery from the global financial crisis and since then seem to have decided that 'hey we're making much more money now we don't do pay rises'. The economy grows, corporate profits rise, wages stagnate. Is that down to immigrants? When we have super low levels of unemployment?

It's Cameron's fault for offering a referundum on something experts should decide.

Completely agree.

 

[Silva]

How so ?

Just think about Ukraine for a moment.

 

[Full bodied red]

We are meant to be one of the largest countries in the world, and part of the largest single market in the world.

And we're opting for something given to countries coming out of war with Russia

A bit of a backwards step

So what's wrong with it ?

They would have had full memership if the Dutch hadn't objected to it. Instead, Ukraine has -

Tariff Free Trade...No membership fees....Free travel but no right to residence and work without a visa in both directions.

Seems to me a perfect short term solution for everyone and an easy, easy sell to the Hard Brexit supporters in the UK.

 

[Full bodied red]

Just think about Ukraine for a moment.

What in particular do you want me to think about ?

 

[Silva]

What in particular do you want me to think about ?

Starting positions before negotiations would be a good start. There are millions of Brits working in the EU and millions of Europeans working here. And we start from a position where our manufacturing and service sectors are heavily reliant on the EU.

 

[Full bodied red]

What's that got to do with the Ukraine ?


Edited to add - Sorry, I see your point about people workin in the UK and in the EU...But nothing else you maentioned seems relevant to Ukraine's deal.

 

[C3Pique]

Aren't Norway and Switzerland part of Schengen?

 

[Silva]

What's that got to do with the Ukraine ?

Ugh.