Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

Maybe the Yoof should have got off their fat lazy arses during the referendum, thats where remainers need to direct their contempt. Your own age group let you down.

It was on a weekday and it was heavily raining that day with trains suffering heavy delays. I made it priority no 1 to vote and I come from a country were the mentality of not voting is simply not an option. However even I struggled to make it to the polls.

TBF it was an election were my vote was actually worth something. I am anti conservative in an area were conservatives always win. Usually my vote isn't worth the very paper its printed on

If the UK truly cared about the votes of those who actually work for a living then they would consider moving it on a weekend same as my own country do. It seems to me that the UK is quite happy with their voter's demographics and have

 

[rcoobc]

Maybe the Yoof should have got off their fat lazy arses during the referendum, thats where remainers need to direct their contempt. Your own age group let you down.

Its actually rubbish. The youth voted.

Sky released an estimation of the youth vote based on the 2015 election and its got out of hand

 

[Stanley Road]

It was on a weekday and it was heavily raining that day with trains suffering heavy delays. I made it priority no 1 to vote and I come from a country were the mentality of not voting is simply not an option. However even I struggled to make it to the polls.

TBF it was an election were my vote was actually worth something. I am anti conservative in an area were conservatives always win. Usually my vote isn't worth the very paper its printed on

If the UK truly cared about the votes of those who actually work for a living then they would consider moving it on a weekend same as my own country do. It seems to me that the UK is quite happy with their voter's demographics and have

Poor excuse, it didnt just rain for the youth it rained for everyone. Polling stations are open for 12 hours or so. People just could not be arsed and are now moaning ffs.

 

[Stanley Road]

Its actually rubbish. The youth voted.

Sky released an estimation of the youth vote based on the 2015 election and its got out of hand

Not enuff obviously or maybe they didn't vote the way you think.

 

[devilish]

Poor excuse, it didnt just rain for the youth it rained for everyone. Polling stations are open for 12 hours or so. People just could not be arsed and are now moaning ffs.

Most of the elderly do not work. They live meters away from the polling booth and they have no time constraints, deadlines to meet, trains to take (who are always delayed) and children to pick from schools. It might sound as a poor excuse but someone has to work in this country. Else how on earth is the government able to pay their pensions?

Why is voting done on weekdays? Are these people afraid of giving youth time to vote?

 

[Stanley Road]

Most of the elderly do not work. They live meters away from the polling booth and they have no time constraints, deadlines to meet, trains to take (who are always delayed) and children to pick from schools. It might sound as a poor excuse but someone has to work in this country. Else how on earth is the government able to pay their pensions?

More excuses

 

[foolsgold]

Why do people make economic arguments for what is a political decision?

Brexit came about because the EU failed as a democratic structure. British people decided that the ability to pass their own laws, make their own trade decisions and control their own borders outweighed transitory economics arguments.

 

[JPRouve]

Why do people make economic arguments for what is a political decision?

Brexit came about because the EU failed as a democratic structure. British people decided that the ability to pass their own laws, make their own trade decisions and control their own borders outweighed transitory economics arguments.

So you basically left for nothing because the UK control their own borders, they make their own laws and they don't make their own trade because they chose to be part of a Custom Union in which every country have a veto.

 

[devilish]

More excuses

Why it’s not done on a weekend ie at a time which makes it easier for the hardworking working class to turn out to vote? Which makes me wonder why do insist on voting on weekdays? What are politicians afraid off?

Also why do we vote candidates instead of candidates AND party? I am a Lib dem/Labour voter who happens to live in a conservative stronghold. Basically my vote isn’t even worth the paper its printed on and I shouldn’t even bother voting at all. (I still do out of habit). Is that how the UK rates democracy?

The Maltese GE’s turnout was 92%, the lowest since 1966. How that is achieved? Voting is done in weekends and the government subsidise flight tickets for expats. My house in Malta is located in a nationalist stronghold but my vote is still valid. Political parties win the elections through the highest amount of votes not seats. If a little country such as Malta who got its own independence less than a century ago can organize all that then surely the UK whose way more organized then we do can do the same.

 

[rcoobc]

Not enuff obviously or maybe they didn't vote the way you think.

Not enough yes. But the young demographic is much smaller than the old.

18-25 demographic has around 10.48 million people. Im not sure what percentage of that are eligible to vote, but its not the whole lot (EU migrants make up a good chunk of that age range). But let's pretend they can all vote.

The over 65 demographic, for comparison, has around 16.6 million people. Most are eligible to vote.

The 18-25 demographic were around 71/29 remain vs leave. According to sky turnout in this age range was around 36%, but that was based on the 2015 GE data. So let's bump it up to 50% which is still bottom of the chart for turnout.

So, assuming everyone in that demographic can vote, which they cant, we have 5.24 missing voters. If they had voted, and assuming the same 71/29 split, that would provided an additional 3.72 million remain votes and an additional 1.52 leave votes, a difference of 2.2 million.

Just enough to take the referendum (a final difference of 1.27 million voters)

But as I've said, all those assumptions are impossible.

 

[Stanley Road]

Why it’s not done on a weekend ie at a time which makes it easier for the hardworking working class to turn out to vote? Which makes me wonder why do insist on voting on weekdays? What are politicians afraid off?

What day was the referendum to join the common market held on?

 

[devilish]

What day was the referendum to join the common market held on?

What does that has to do with what I said? I repeat this is not just about Brexit but about every election done in this country.

 

[rcoobc]

One day someone will write a book about what Stan wants.

 

[Stanley Road]

What does that has to do with what I said? I repeat this is not just about Brexit but about every election done in this country.

Cos if people want something badly enuff they will make the fkin effort to get to the polling booth

 

[Kentonio]

Cos if people want something badly enuff they will make the fkin effort to get to the polling booth

They didn't have to get it, they already had it. The problem appears to have been that a lot of people thought there was very little chance of the country kicking itself in the balls for absolutely no good reason. Those people are now sadder and wiser as a result, and they will make sure the payback is appropriate when the time comes.

 

[devilish]

Cos if people want something badly enuff they will make the fkin effort to get to the polling booth

that's not the point. If a country truly values democracy than it makes sure to facilitate it in every way possible and would make sure that the system chosen is as fair and as democratic as possible. That doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. Voting is done at weekdays which puts the working class in clear disadvantage and the current system makes sure that votes in certain regions aren't worth the paper its printed upon. In 2015 nearly 4m people voted for UKIP yet they ended up with just 1 seat in parliament. What type of message does that gives you?

 

[Kentonio]

In 2015 nearly 4m people voted for UKIP yet they ended up with just 1 seat in parliament. What type of message does that gives you?

That even a broken system works out ok sometimes?

 

[devilish]

That even a broken system works out ok sometimes?

Im not a fan of UKIP but its unfair for them to end up with just 1 seat after garnering nearly 4m votes. It certainly doesn't serve democracy right. Same thing about voting in weekdays especially in a country were people work long hours, the weather is unpredictable and were trains suffer from huge delays. Time and time again the message given to the public is not to bother voting because their opinion isn't really wanted and most of the time its clearly worthless.

Such message was pretty evident when Farage came out, few hours Brexit won, saying that the 350m a week to the NHS idea was clearly a lie. Don't take me wrong, politicians lie everywhere and lying occurred on both sides of the Brexit referendum campaign. However they won't go on the tv, few hours they actually won, stating that they lied their way to victory. That's clearly disrespecting the voter's intelligence. In lesser countries those politicians would be lynched.

 

[AshfordLad]

They didn't have to get it, they already had it. The problem appears to have been that a lot of people thought there was very little chance of the country kicking itself in the balls for absolutely no good reason. Those people are now sadder and wiser as a result, and they will make sure the payback is appropriate when the time comes.

I think this is a big reason and the media does not touch upon this ever. A lot of people look at opinion polls and get complacent.

 

[Stanley Road]

They didn't have to get it, they already had it. The problem appears to have been that a lot of people thought there was very little chance of the country kicking itself in the balls for absolutely no good reason. Those people are now sadder and wiser as a result, and they will make sure the payback is appropriate when the time comes.

More fool them, who bets their house on a 2 horse race? lets not forget the 20% or so 18-25's that voted to leave

 

[Stanley Road]

that's not the point. If a country truly values democracy than it makes sure to facilitate it in every way possible and would make sure that the system chosen is as fair and as democratic as possible. That doesn't seem to be the case in the UK. Voting is done at weekdays which puts the working class in clear disadvantage and the current system makes sure that votes in certain regions aren't worth the paper its printed upon. In 2015 nearly 4m people voted for UKIP yet they ended up with just 1 seat in parliament. What type of message does that gives you?

It was fair for everyone, everyone had exactly the same hours to get to vote. Should they have been open all night so some lazy slackers dossing at uni could get there on time?

 

[devilish]

It was fair for everyone, everyone had exactly the same hours to get to vote. Should they have been open all night so some lazy slackers dossing at uni could get there on time?

Do you consider the working class who have other more important priorities like going to work or pick up children from child care as lazy dozers then? As opposed to what exactly? To pensioners who can afford spending their days reading the daily mail, picking up pensions the 'lazy dozers' pay for and they will probably never get and vote?

I repeat, what's keeping the country from voting on weekends? What's wrong with doing that? Is it undemocratic? If not, then what's wrong in accomodating the majority of 'lazy dozers' who actually work for a living during the weekday? After all, they are ones sustaining the economy which also provide for pensions and a free NHS.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Why do people make economic arguments for what is a political decision?

Brexit came about because the EU failed as a democratic structure. British people decided that the ability to pass their own laws, make their own trade decisions and control their own borders outweighed transitory economics arguments.

All the points you raised are the lies the Brexiters believe, we're still trying to find the real reason why so many people made such a ridiculously stupid decision, conclusion - they wanted their own economy to tank - enemies of the people

 

[sun_tzu]

Do you consider the working class who have other more important priorities like going to work or pick up children from child care as lazy dozers then? As opposed to what exactly? To pensioners who can afford spending their days reading the daily mail, picking up pensions the 'lazy dozers' pay for and they will probably never get and vote?

I repeat, what's keeping the country from voting on weekends? What's wrong with doing that? Is it undemocratic? If not, then what's wrong in accomodating the majority of 'lazy dozers' who actually work for a living during the weekday? After all, they are ones sustaining the economy which also provide for pensions and a free NHS.

yeah also whats wrong with requesting a postal vote... its not exactly difficult... i always get one as I work away a lot so don't know if Ill be close to my local area on voting day - its hardly difficult for people who work shifts etc to do the same

 

[NinjaFletch]

yeah also whats wrong with requesting a postal vote... its not exactly difficult... i always get one as I work away a lot so don't know if Ill be close to my local area on voting day - its hardly difficult for people who work shifts etc to do the same

Meh, postal votes are problematic if you're an undecided. They're fine to have obviously, but there seems no reason why you can't have them alongside moving voting day to the weekend as well.

I think the big issues with turnout though is FPTP.

 

[sun_tzu]

Meh, postal votes are problematic if you're an undecided. They're fine to have obviously, but there seems no reason why you can't have them alongside moving voting day to the weekend as well.

I think the big issues with turnout though is FPTP.

It certainly does not help - safe (or perceived safe seats etc)
I would much prefer PR but I think here are other fundamental changes needed as well
i would like to think in the coming years in addition to voting in person and postal votes a secture online method could be developed as well
Personally I have been in favour for a while of moving to the Australian system where voting is mandatory (fine if you dont) but with the addition that they add a none of the above box as well... when none of the above starts getting more votes than winning candidates hopefully it will see parties truly start to engage with people.

 

[Barca84]

All the points you raised are the lies the Brexiters believe, we're still trying to find the real reason why so many people made such a ridiculously stupid decision, conclusion - they wanted their own economy to tank - enemies of the people

A lot of people voted the way that they did because for them personally the economy tanked and tanked big a long time ago.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

A lot of people voted the way that they did because for them personally the economy tanked and tanked big a long time ago.

If that was the case, how does making things even worse for themselves improve their life?

 

[Barca84]

If that was the case, how does making things even worse for themselves improve their life?

I work in some of the most impoverished communities in the East Midlands. Believe it or not a lot of people here think it can't get any worse. They might be right, they might be wrong, but you would be probably be appalled at the way some people live their lives here.

 

[Kentonio]

More fool them, who bets their house on a 2 horse race? lets not forget the 20% or so 18-25's that voted to leave

50% of people are below average intelligence. Why would it be hard to believe that 20% are really dumb?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I work in some of the most impoverished communities in the East Midlands. Believe it or not a lot of people here think it can't get any worse. They might be right, they might be wrong, but you would be probably be appalled at the way some people live their lives here.

But it's the poorest in the community who are going to be hit the most by this. Those that promoted this farce like Farage, Gove and Johnson aren't going to be affected by it, and the Tory leavers using the EU as an excuse to deflect the blame from themselves aren't going to be affected either. They've played with people's lives for their own political benefit and convinced the turkeys to vote for Xmas.

 

[devilish]

All the points you raised are the lies the Brexiters believe, we're still trying to find the real reason why so many people made such a ridiculously stupid decision, conclusion - they wanted their own economy to tank - enemies of the people

In my opinion, Brexit won for a lot of reasons.

The elderly missed the time when the UK was a global power. So any chance of turning back the time was worth it. Let’s face it, Brexit represented a low risk gamble for them. These people has a pension, they probably own their own houses and even if NHS is indeed privatised that won’t hurt them one bit. Both parties will take care of them either because they possess a social soul (labour) or because they form the very backbone of the Tory’s voters.

Others genuinely believed that the UK could have the cake and eat it. Why wouldn’t it be the case? The EU had always surrendered to the UK demands so why would they not do the same about Brexit? These people got used seeing Nigel Farage’s bravados in the European parliament and they misinterpreted the other MEP’s awkward silence to some sort of submissive behaviour from their part (in reality they pitied the fool). Surely the EU would bend over backwards to the UK. It’s the UK we’re talking about not some third rated country. It turned out that its not the case. As the US knows very well, the EU is a very tough negotiator to work with from the outside.

Finally there were many who genuinely hated the establishment and saw it as a way to show them the middle finger. I can’t blame them completely. When we start driving outside London I was literally shocked how poorer the rest of the UK is as opposed to London. It seemed to be a completely different nation. There again, while I do admit that the EU have many many weaknesses, not taking care of its poor is not one of them.

 

[Barca84]

But it's the poorest in the community who are going to be hit the most by this. Those that promoted this farce like Farage, Gove and Johnson aren't going to be affected by it, and the Tory leavers using the EU as an excuse to deflect the blame from themselves aren't going to be affected either. They've played with people's lives for their own political benefit and convinced the turkeys to vote for Xmas.

Perhaps yes. What I'm positing is that when you are living on nothing, and have never had anything, and your folks lived on nothing and never had anything, that is an economy that for them has already tanked. It's hard for for those of us who do ok to realise that for many people things don't seem as if they could actually get any worse. No prospects, no hopes, no aspirations, real poverty, substance & alcohol abuse, mental and physical ill health etc It's a cliche but it's genuinely seriously grim in these old industrial areas. There are communities here where unemployment goes back over several generations now ( I use the term "communities" lightly - most semblance of community has broken down). Rightly or wrongly a lot of people in these areas voted to leave simply because it was seen as an alternative to a system perceived as having abandoned them and there is a strong argument that it has. They were offered a vision, possibly a blatantly false one, where they would be better off and they voted for it. The fact that they might have been lied to doesn't make them necessarily stupid - just desperate enough to vote for something that might improve their lot.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

In my opinion, Brexit won for a lot of reasons.

The elderly missed the time when the UK was a global power. So any chance of turning back the time was worth it. Let’s face it, Brexit represented a low risk gamble for them. These people has a pension, they probably own their own houses and even if NHS is indeed privatised that won’t hurt them one bit. Both parties will take care of them either because they possess a social soul (labour) or because they form the very backbone of the Tory’s voters.

Others genuinely believed that the UK could have the cake and eat it. Why wouldn’t it be the case? The EU had always surrendered to the UK demands so why would they not do the same about Brexit? These people got used seeing Nigel Farage’s bravados in the European parliament and they misinterpreted the other MEP’s awkward silence to some sort of submissive behaviour from their part (in reality they pitied the fool). Surely the EU would bend over backwards to the UK. It’s the UK we’re talking about not some third rated country. It turned out that its not the case. As the US knows very well, the EU is a very tough negotiator to work with from the outside.

Finally there were many who genuinely hated the establishment and saw it as a way to show them the middle finger. I can’t blame them completely. When we start driving outside London I was literally shocked how poorer the rest of the UK is as opposed to London. It seemed to be a completely different nation. There again, while I do admit that the EU have many many weaknesses, not taking care of its poor is not one of them.

I don't disagree with what you say but it comes down to what has irritated me all along, people have voted through misunderstanding, misinformation, ignorance, stupidity or whatever you want to call it.
If people voted whilst being at least moderately well informed, Brexit would never have happened.
Having said that even if the referendum was held again tomorrow, there's a strong possibility that the same result could occur because until harsh reality hits them full on, it won't sink in and that could take up to a few years for that to happen.

Being of the older generation and a traditional Tory voter, I would never have at any point considered voting to leave if I'd still lived in the UK.

 

[Barca84]

When we start driving outside London I was literally shocked how poorer the rest of the UK is as opposed to London. It seemed to be a completely different nation.

The reality is that the divide is stark. The deindustrialization was brutal and rapid and the fallout remains.

 

[devilish]

I don't disagree with what you say but it comes down to what has irritated me all along, people have voted through misunderstanding, misinformation, ignorance, stupidity or whatever you want to call it.
If people voted whilst being at least moderately well informed, Brexit would never have happened.
Having said that even if the referendum was held again tomorrow, there's a strong possibility that the same result could occur because until harsh reality hits them full on, it won't sink in and that could take up to a few years for that to happen.

Being of the older generation and a traditional Tory voter, I would never have at any point considered voting to leave if I'd still lived in the UK.

The Brexit campaign started in the worse way possible ie as a power grab by the Tory Party to keep Ukip at bay (which then generated into a catfight between the old Tory order and the new one). During the campaign both camps lied bitterly and they embellished/catastrophised so much that it went beyond any decency or shred of credibility. The old order looked stupid when they sided with the EU especially after spending years blaming it of everything. The new order on the other hand is looking stupid now. They promised everything under the sun (350m to the NHS, unrestricted access to the single market without the need for the UK taxpayer to pay anything for such service etc) is looking stupid now.
I got some experience in politics + I could still rely on MEPs/Ministers in my own country who were quite versed in EU politics. Having said that even I got confused at times.

If you ask me politicians at both the leaver and remainer camps should be hanged, drawn and quartered for their big disservice towards the UK public. Such childish behaviour still exist now with ministers (both leavers and remainers) leaking information and people on both camps feeding information to the public without even consulting with the EU(whose at the other side of the negotiation team) whether such promises could be kept. This great nation deserves better than that.

 

[711]

In my opinion, Brexit won for a lot of reasons.

The elderly missed the time when the UK was a global power. So any chance of turning back the time was worth it. Let’s face it, Brexit represented a low risk gamble for them. These people has a pension, they probably own their own houses and even if NHS is indeed privatised that won’t hurt them one bit. Both parties will take care of them either because they possess a social soul (labour) or because they form the very backbone of the Tory’s voters.

Others genuinely believed that the UK could have the cake and eat it. Why wouldn’t it be the case? The EU had always surrendered to the UK demands so why would they not do the same about Brexit? These people got used seeing Nigel Farage’s bravados in the European parliament and they misinterpreted the other MEP’s awkward silence to some sort of submissive behaviour from their part (in reality they pitied the fool). Surely the EU would bend over backwards to the UK. It’s the UK we’re talking about not some third rated country. It turned out that its not the case. As the US knows very well, the EU is a very tough negotiator to work with from the outside.

Finally there were many who genuinely hated the establishment and saw it as a way to show them the middle finger. I can’t blame them completely. When we start driving outside London I was literally shocked how poorer the rest of the UK is as opposed to London. It seemed to be a completely different nation. There again, while I do admit that the EU have many many weaknesses, not taking care of its poor is not one of them.

There's only you believes in the empire/global power thing devilish. You make a lot of sense in general but you've totally misunderstood the British on that one. I understand how your background might make it an important thing for you personally, but believe me for the average Brit it's all ancient history.

You've missed out the major reason why older people voted Leave, and that's immigration. Forget for a minute whether their opinion on that is morally or economically right, wrong, racist or xenophobic, we've done all that, the vote's over, I'm talking about the result. The obvious question is why should an opinion on immigration take precedence over everything else for the old, and the answer is that their opinions on immigration have been ignored by all parties for forty years and more, then finally they had a vote that allowed them to demonstrate how they felt. Ironically they had the vote because, true to form, Cameron ignored them right to the end, and was too arrogant to understand the can of worms he was opening.

Anyone who doesn't realise how important immigration was in the Brexit referendum doesn't really understand what happened, and I suspect they'll struggle to understand the negotiations to come too.

 

[Kentonio]

They might be right, they might be wrong, but you would be probably be appalled at the way some people live their lives here.

Of course they're wrong, things can always be worse.

 

[Kentonio]

There's only you believes in the empire/global power thing devilish. You make a lot of sense in general but you've totally misunderstood the British on that one. I understand how your background might make it an important thing for you personally, but believe me for the average Brit it's all ancient history.

I don't think that's at all true. Brits are used to Britain having an oversized role and influence in the world, which isn't surprising as we still have it today. It's one of the few logical explanations for why Brits tend to be so fecking arrogant about international politics. Most other nationalities don't act in the same way, including rich European countries. The closest are probably the French, who of course just happen to have their own permanent seat on the Security Council, their own nukes and former empire etc etc.

 

[711]

I don't think that's at all true. Brits are used to Britain having an oversized role and influence in the world, which isn't surprising as we still have it today. It's one of the few logical explanations for why Brits tend to be so fecking arrogant about international politics. Most other nationalities don't act in the same way, including rich European countries. The closest are probably the French, who of course just happen to have their own permanent seat on the Security Council, their own nukes and former empire etc etc.

Well maybe I'm being subjective as well then, so point taken. All I can say is I don't think anyone I know had their vote influenced by that bollocks, they seemed to be influence by sovereignty (I know, again I'm not justifying it), political independence, finance and immigration. I'm not sure that many people actually think about permanent seats on the Security Council, or even know what they are to be honest.