Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[devilish]

There's only you believes in the empire/global power thing devilish. You make a lot of sense in general but you've totally misunderstood the British on that one. I understand how your background might make it an important thing for you personally, but believe me for the average Brit it's all ancient history.

You've missed out the major reason why older people voted Leave, and that's immigration. Forget for a minute whether their opinion on that is morally or economically right, wrong, racist or xenophobic, we've done all that, the vote's over, I'm talking about the result. The obvious question is why should an opinion on immigration take precedence over everything else for the old, and the answer is that their opinions on immigration have been ignored by all parties for forty years and more, then finally they had a vote that allowed them to demonstrate how they felt. Ironically they had the vote because, true to form, Cameron ignored them right to the end, and was too arrogant to understand the can of worms he was opening.

Anyone who doesn't realise how important immigration was in the Brexit referendum doesn't really understand what happened, and I suspect they'll struggle to understand the negotiations to come too.

I think you're misunderstanding the Maltese mentality about colonialism. We're a small country and we learnt from day 1 that if we wanted our economy to work then we couldn't afford having a chip on our shoulder towards anybody. We made deals with Germany who bombed the crap out of us and we even kept strong ties with the mad dog even though he sent a battleship against us at one time. When the Brits gave us the george cross instead of the financial backup needed to rebuilt our country we simply said thanks and went on placed it on our flag. There's a local saying which say that Malta had never refused any grain. It served us well through time and maybe it was why we prospered while other former colonies went tits up.

I won't delve deep into my career but I assure you that I had good contact with the British prior and after coming to the UK. I agree with you that the younger generation cant give a crap about the British empire. Some know less about their own country's history then I do which is sad tbh. There again, the old generation do care about the UK standing in a global world. God knows how many expats felt insulted that the locals don't treat them as they use to. When you go deep into the issue, most of the time, its down to the fact that the locals treat them the way they treat everybody (including others). That awe of being British is diminishing as less and less people remember the British empire. I find that the elderly generation don't like that.

We are in full agreement that immigration had played an enormous part in Brexit. While most of it is down to xenophobia or at least lack of knowledge of how things are in reality, I also think that such flawed mentality is not exlusive to the British either. That can of worm is alive and kicking in every single country I worked/lived in including Malta. Part of it is fully justified and the EU should make amends. For example I do believe that freedom of movement need to be tweaked to avoid crime hopping (ex pickpockets). There again I also think that politicians have the right and the duty not to feed that particular monster as it might one day strike back..

Finally I cant help noticing a certain selfish attitude if not distaste by the elderly generations towards the younger generation, which honestly I don't understand. There seems to be a sense of 'we know better' attitude by the elderly generation which is certainly not justified by any of their actions. The UK they left behind give far less chances to the younger generation. The younger generation has a bleaker future ahead of them then they did (tuition fees, pension age that will probably go up to 70, a privatised NHS, a poorer UK with a huge deficit etc). Maybe there's a reason to it. I find myself surrounded by too many elderly people who are abandoned by their children and left on their own device. Some do make a brave face to it all but its a sad and lonely end of life.

 

[Kentonio]

Well maybe I'm being subjective as well then, so point taken. All I can say is I don't think anyone I know had their vote influenced by that bollocks, they seemed to be influence by sovereignty (I know, again I'm not justifying it), political independence, finance and immigration. I'm not sure that many people actually think about permanent seats on the Security Council, or even know what they are to be honest.

I don't think they spend any time at all thinking about specifics like the Security Council seat, I think as a nation we've just all grown up used to being a country that is involved in most major decisions, who is a part of the top table (or near it at least) and who is economically right up amongst the richest. It really does effect how people see the world.

In Britain there's always this subconscious expectation that our wants and needs should be an important part of how other countries act. People really seem to struggle with the idea that another country would do something thats good for them and damages us, even when we're the ones that put them in that situation.

 

[711]

Finally I cant help noticing a certain selfish attitude if not distaste by the elderly generations towards the younger generation, which honestly I don't understand. Its undeniable and goes beyond Brexit. There seems to be a sense of 'we know better' attitude by the elderly generation which is certainly not justified by any of their actions. The UK they left behind give far less chances to the younger generation, it puts much more burden on them (tuition fees, pension age that will probably go up to 70, a privatised NHS, a poorer UK with a huge deficit etc). In few words they should be ashamed of themselves.

Come now, there's a quote from Socrates on here somewhere and it's spot on. You'll feel exactly the same about the young when you're old yourself - and ain't that patronising?

Unfortunately Britain lost the ability to plan for the future some time ago, in fact Thatcher made the whole the whole idea of central planning a dirty concept, as all we needed was market forces, and society didn't even exist.

To be fair to the generations even older than me, they did introduce pensions, the NHS, the welfare state and the expansion of education, it was my lot, the baby boomers, that cocked it. I'm not sure succeeding generations have done much to un-cock so far, but we live in hope.

 

[Stanley Road]

pensioners who can afford spending their days reading the daily mail

New low. If you cant find 5 minutes between 7am and 10pm you don't deserve a vote

 

[devilish]

Come now, there's a quote from Socrates on here somewhere and it's spot on. You'll feel exactly the same about the young when you're old yourself - and ain't that patronising?

Unfortunately Britain lost the ability to plan for the future some time ago, in fact Thatcher made the whole the whole idea of central planning a dirty concept, as all we needed was market forces, and society didn't even exist.

To be fair to the generations even older than me, they did introduce pensions, the NHS, the welfare state and the expansion of education, it was my lot, the baby boomers, that cocked it. I'm not sure succeeding generations have done much to un-cock so far, but we live in hope.

Well I am not a spring chicken myself and I don't think Im any better to the younger generation. Actually I do find my generation to be far worse than that of my grandparents although its better than that of my parents (the spoiled baby boomers).

 

[Stanley Road]

50% of people are below average intelligence. Why would it be hard to believe that 20% are really dumb?

Your are suggesting, not for the first time, that all thickets voted Brexit

 

[devilish]

New low. If you cant find 5 minutes between 7am and 10pm you don't deserve a vote

Do you actually care answering the entire posts or are you just trolling?

 

[Stanley Road]

Perhaps yes. What I'm positing is that when you are living on nothing, and have never had anything, and your folks lived on nothing and never had anything, that is an economy that for them has already tanked. It's hard for for those of us who do ok to realise that for many people things don't seem as if they could actually get any worse. No prospects, no hopes, no aspirations, real poverty, substance & alcohol abuse, mental and physical ill health

Pauls not getting the point that when you literally have nothing you have nothing to lose, I get it.

You cant pluck a bald chicken

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Stanley Road obviously being massively disingenuous and twisting every which way not to answer the simple question of why votes shouldn't be held on a Saturday. Yeah, youth sucks, is lazy and can't be arsed, granted. Also, why shouldn't votes be held on a Saturday?

 

[Stanley Road]

Do you actually care answering the entire posts or are you just trolling?

Only if you can really convince me why 15 hours isn't enuff time

 

[Stanley Road]

Stanley Road obviously being massively disingenuous and twisting every which way not to answer the simple question of why votes shouldn't be held on a Saturday. Yeah, youth sucks, is lazy and can't be arsed, granted. Also, why shouldn't votes be held on a Saturday?

Cos to try and imply that outcomes would be different if people voted at the weekend is fantasy

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Righto, lets grant outcomes would have been the same, but a Saturday clearly makes it more convenient for folk to vote. Are you maybe arguing that inconvenience is a virtue in this instance since it places a cost on voting and only those that care enough should get to voice their opinion?

 

[rcoobc]

Why do Americans vote on tuesday.

Avoiding market days and religious days were the obvious reason original reason

 

[Stanley Road]

Righto, lets grant outcomes would have been the same, but a Saturday clearly makes it more convenient for folk to vote. Are you maybe arguing that inconvenience is a virtue in this instance since it places a cost on voting and only those that care enough should get to voice their opinion?

Just spoke to my Serbian colleague and they voted on Sunday, he didn't like the idea as it ate into his weekend.

Holland vote on Thursdays, maybe Saturday wouldn't have delivered the crap we have now that are unable to form a coalition since march but I very much doubt it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Pauls not getting the point that when you literally have nothing you have nothing to lose, I get it.

You cant pluck a bald chicken

I get the point, but on my travels I have seen far more poverty than one can see anywhere in the UK, so there is always something worse, or further to fall and although people might desperately vote for something that they hope will improve their lot, unless there is actually a possibility that that could be the case then why vote for it and that brings me back to the original point which is ignorance, whether it's their own fault or not and thus such a decision should never be put in the hands of people who do not have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision.

At an election the voters can oust the party that was voted in within a few years but this is a decision which will determine the future of the country for decades to come.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Just spoke to my Serbian colleague and they voted on Sunday, he didn't like the idea as it ate into his weekend.

Holland vote on Thursdays, maybe Saturday wouldn't have delivered the crap we have now that are unable to form a coalition since march but I very much doubt it.

Vast majority of countries hold votes at the weekend.

I guess I can see the eating into the weekend argument, but you still don't have to vote if you don't want. It just makes it easier to prioritise since most folk have fewer responsibilities during the weekend. Also there's no payback for idiots like me who stay up all night waiting for my team to lose.

I guess I think we should be trying to make voting as hassle free and equitable as possible even if it has little or no effect on the end result. Weekends seem like an improvement in this regard.

 

[Stanley Road]

I get the point, but on my travels I have seen far more poverty than one can see anywhere in the UK

Me too, have lived in Sierra Leone and Mexico City but still, if you have no home, no job, no money, what is there to lose?

 

[Kentonio]

Your are suggesting, not for the first time, that all thickets voted Brexit

No, I'd assume that some thick people just did what smarter people told them was a good idea, and some smart people let themselves down by getting sucked in by propaganda. By and large though, sure.

 

[Kentonio]

Me too, have lived in Sierra Leone and Mexico City but still, if you have no home, no job, no money, what is there to lose?

No British citizen living in Britain permanently has no home, job or money. Our social system is specifically designed to ensure that never happens. The only reason anyone even lives like that temporarily is in cases where the governments twisted new austerity measures have punished them with temporary freezes. The idea that you could even compare the worst off in Britain with people in Sierre Leone is fecking mental quite frankly.

 

[Silva]

The gutter press is complaining about tighter border checks in Europe. Ha.

 

[Barca84]

Of course they're wrong, things can always be worse.

It might not seem that way? Besides it's relative. If your primary source of food is a foodbank then yes it could get worse if that foodbank closes. The price of a value tin of beans could go up by 5p. These are the measures when you are living in poverty.

No British citizen living in Britain permanently has no home, job or money

I've spent over 20 years coming into daily contact with people who have no home, no job, and no source of income. In short you are wrong.

This is part of the issue here -there's a lack of understanding of just how some people in this country barely live. If people can't grasp that then it's natural that there's a failure to comprehend why they might vote a certain way. The explanation seems to often be that it's because they're "thick"

 

[Barca84]

I get the point, but on my travels I have seen far more poverty than one can see anywhere in the UK, so there is always something worse, or further to fall and although people might desperately vote for something that they hope will improve their lot, unless there is actually a possibility that that could be the case then why vote for it and that brings me back to the original point which is ignorance, whether it's their own fault or not and thus such a decision should never be put in the hands of people who do not have sufficient knowledge to make an informed decision.

At an election the voters can oust the party that was voted in within a few years but this is a decision which will determine the future of the country for decades to come.

I agree that the public should never have been asked to make a decision (all of the public whether informed or those who like to think that they are)

And poverty is relative - but I can tell you now that I have gone into houses and living conditions that Orwell would've recognised. Absolute squalor and filth.

 

[devilish]

New low. If you cant find 5 minutes between 7am and 10pm you don't deserve a vote

At the time my wife was spending ridiculous amounts of hours due to some research she was doing. All trains were delayed but we do have decent transportation service which means she did eventually got on the train. We don't have have kids, I came from work early which means I was the one cooking (ie that's another half an hour spared) and the polling booth happened to be a spit away from her underground station. She also live about 45 minutes away from work. She ended up voting at 9pm. Modify or change any of those variables and she wouldn't have probably not voted at all.


So tell me why voting isn't shifted on weekends?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I agree that the public should never have been asked to make a decision (all of the public whether informed or those who like to think that they are)

And poverty is relative - but I can tell you now that I have gone into houses and living conditions that Orwell would've recognised. Absolute squalor and filth.

Yes I meant all of the public as well.
Poverty is relative and such poverty shouldn't exist especially in so called first world countries but yes it does.
But some people in some African countries would think those poor people in the Uk were rich.

 

[rcoobc]

Maybe the Yoof should have got off their fat lazy arses during the referendum, thats where remainers need to direct their contempt. Your own age group let you down.

Not enuff obviously or maybe they didn't vote the way you think.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-eu-talks-minority-jeremy-a7871541.html

Same youth vote that came out in record numbers for the GE apparently didn't both turning up for the referendum, despite having the strongest feelings towards it of any age group?

The youth voted in both. Unfortunately, there are around 35 million people in the 50+ age range, and these people vote in the largest numbers. The 18-25 age range includes on 16 million people.

Youth vote doesn't matter.

 

[Stanley Road]

No British citizen living in Britain permanently has no home, job or money. Our social system is specifically designed to ensure that never happens. The only reason anyone even lives like that temporarily is in cases where the governments twisted new austerity measures have punished them with temporary freezes. The idea that you could even compare the worst off in Britain with people in Sierre Leone is fecking mental quite frankly.

I haven't made a comparison its in your headq

 

[Kentonio]

It might not seem that way? Besides it's relative. If your primary source of food is a foodbank then yes it could get worse if that foodbank closes. The price of a value tin of beans could go up by 5p. These are the measures when you are living in poverty.

Absolutely.

I've spent over 20 years coming into daily contact with people who have no home, no job, and no source of income. In short you are wrong.

This is part of the issue here -there's a lack of understanding of just how some people in this country barely live. If people can't grasp that then it's natural that there's a failure to comprehend why they might vote a certain way. The explanation seems to often be that it's because they're "thick"

Please explain how a British citizen living in Britain with no home or job is not qualified for any benefit payments. I know it can be a lot harder to claim welfare help especially if you don't have a fixed abode, but there are ways around that as you know perfectly well. I'm not saying no-one in Britain is in poverty, or suffering because I know very well that they are, but saying people can permanently be without home, job or source of income seems hyperbolic. The only realistic causes I can think of for that would be mental illness or serious addiction that made people incapable of seeking help or engaging with that help.

Then again, if you know of another major contributing factor I'd be interested to hear it. Obviously its a very complex issue and I'm not claiming to be an expert.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leave-eu-talks-minority-jeremy-a7871541.html

Same youth vote that came out in record numbers for the GE apparently didn't both turning up for the referendum, despite having the strongest feelings towards it of any age group?

The youth voted in both. Unfortunately, there are around 35 million people in the 50+ age range, and these people vote in the largest numbers. The 18-25 age range includes on 16 million people.

Youth vote doesn't matter.

They turned out for that one because Corbyn promised them a load of bollocks. Some of those numpties thought he was even going to write off existing student debt! Didn't a recent survey show that they also thought he was going to help deliver a soft Brexit too? In other words they got mugged off.

 

[Silva]

They turned out for that one because Corbyn promised them a load of bollocks. Some of those numpties thought he was even going to write off existing student debt! Didn't a recent survey show that they also thought he was going to help deliver a soft Brexit too? In other words they got mugged off.

Shock horror, people voting for things they like the sound of.

 

[rcoobc]

They turned out for that one because Corbyn promised them a load of bollocks. Some of those numpties thought he was even going to write off existing student debt! Didn't a recent survey show that they also thought he was going to help deliver a soft Brexit too? In other words they got mugged off.

The link I posted shows exactly that. That the number one remainers voted Labour is because they thought it was the best chance of a soft brexit

Which makes sense

Little to do with bribes

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The link I posted shows exactly that. That the number one remainers voted Labour is because they thought it was the best chance of a soft brexit

Which makes sense

Little to do with bribes

Doesn't make sense anymore though. Corbyn backs hard Brexit. There is little deistinction between him and the Tories on it.

 

[rcoobc]

Doesn't make sense anymore though. Corbyn backs hard Brexit. There is little deistinction between him and the Tories on it.

Indeed. But a lot of the Labour party back soft Brexit, no Brexit, etc. My local candidate wanted a 2nd referendum.

 

[Dobba]

Shock horror, people voting for things they like the sound of.

It's a bribe unless you're a pensioner or a Tory. Thems the rules.

 

[Stanley Road]

Indeed. But a lot of the Labour party back soft Brexit, no Brexit, etc. My local candidate wanted a 2nd referendum.

I'm in favour of it too so this shit can be put to bed when the result is the same.

 

[rcoobc]

I'm in favour of it too so this shit can be put to bed when the result is the same.

What do you want Stanley. What do you waaaannnntttt

 

[Barca84]

Yes I meant all of the public as well.
Poverty is relative and such poverty shouldn't exist especially in so called first world countries but yes it does.
But some people in some African countries would think those poor people in the Uk were rich.

They are in relation to some people in African countries. But they don't live there so this is not relevant.

Absolutely.

Please explain how a British citizen living in Britain with no home or job is not qualified for any benefit payments. I know it can be a lot harder to claim welfare help especially if you don't have a fixed abode, but there are ways around that as you know perfectly well. I'm not saying no-one in Britain is in poverty, or suffering because I know very well that they are, but saying people can permanently be without home, job or source of income seems hyperbolic. The only realistic causes I can think of for that would be mental illness or serious addiction that made people incapable of seeking help or engaging with that help.

Then again, if you know of another major contributing factor I'd be interested to hear it. Obviously its a very complex issue and I'm not claiming to be an expert.

You'll have to take it from me that in almost 20 years of working in front line homeless services a day barely passed when we did not have a service user who was 1) Without a home and not eligible for further housing assiatnce from the state 2) Had never worked and was not capable of working 3) Was sanctioned and/or had failed to meet conditions of benefits payments and was therefore in receipt of no benefit. Without the assistance and advocacy that can be provided as part of engagement with services to challenge scenarios such as this it is a reality that many people exist in Britain under those exact conditions. There is a world out there populated by those who have truly been marginalised to the extreme edges of society that is difficult to comprehend - I know of a community of people who have taken to local woods and live in trenches surviving only on what they can scavenge for example.

 

[endless_wheelies]

 

[endless_wheelies]

 

[Silva]

Someone should ask if they'd be willing to give up their pensions.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

Good read from Vernon Bogdanor, Professor of Government, King's College London, in this mornings Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...getting-stronger-political-deadlock-life-raft