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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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Labour had one job on their hands...Corbyn should hang his head in shame by prioritising a quarter of party supporters over vast majority of remainers. What a shambles of the situation.

That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.
 
That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.

It’s not strategy, it’s just what he favours. The British hard left have been not much more amenable to EU membership than the likes of John Redwood. It’s just that, having been on the defensive since 1979, they have had 101 other things to fight against while the Tory right wing has been able to indulge their grand obsession amid a generally favourable (for them) political climate.
 
Can’t really blame Corbyn for falling for the campaign of lies and fear. Everybody else did

You really can.

I can see where some could have sympathy with society's most vulnerable, gullible and isolated for falling for the lies and fear. Not sure leader of the opposition really fits into that category. Corbyn is a better ally to May on Brexit than probably the majority of her own party. I can't imagine any Labour leader of the last 30 plus years who'd give her as easy time in the same scenario. She's genuinely fallen on her feet with that.
 
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He's not prioritising anything.
Corbyn wants hard Brexit. That fact is becoming clearer by the day.

That was clear well before the referendum and was pointed out, it's why he hardly said anything before the referendum.

People are still stuck with this Tory vs Labour allegiance. That's not what's at stake, it's the country's future that's at stake and the numpties are getting their way.
 
Maybe the Russians got to him then.

What possible reasons could Corbyn have for wanting to leave the EU?

He's always been anti-EU. Which is fine but it irritates when people pretend somehow his hands are tied. He isn't opposing hard Brexit because he supports hard Brexit and always has.
 
Corbyn expressed his doubts about the EU in the past, there wasn't exactly any gusto in his rhetoric to remain, and now he is intent on the UK being removed. All of it makes it obvious enough that he isn't the pro-EU idealist that people still appear to dream of him becoming in order to thwart Brexit at the last moment.

With all of that said, what are the fundamental issues behind Corbyn's opposition to the EU? If all of this isn't necessarily stemming from his opposition to the EU, then what is the long game in terms of domestic politics?

I'm sure there are some people here who knew of him long before he became fashionable and have a greater insight into what his intentions are.
 
That's my take on it too. I'm sick of hearing about this 30% Labour Leavers group who have to be catered for, when apparently the 70% can just go feck themselves.

The problem he has is if he loses the 30% Labour Leavers will he gain the same number in Tory Remainers?
 
He's perfectly entitled to be anti-EU but it's the pretence that he's in some kind of catch 22 situation forcing him to support hard Brexit has become infuriating.

Leader of the opposition whose party backs remain/soft Brexit by some distance against a divided govt who can't command a majority in its own cabinet for what it wants to do (not that it knows what it wants to do yet) let alone the wider commons. To pretend somehow there's nothing Corbyn can do but back the Johnson/Rees-Mogg wet-dream Hard Brexit is a complete piss take. And yet so blinded are people by their loyalty to the man they will genuinely argue that case.
 
The problem he has is if he loses the 30% Labour Leavers will he gain the same number in Tory Remainers?

UKIP is the turd in the punchbowl on this one admittedly. They Labour leave voters aren’t going Tory but they might go UKIP. Tory Remainers probably aren’t going Corbyn Labour realistically. I see the political calculation, it just enrages me, along with people still holding a grudge against the Lib Dems while being ok with accepting the Tories fecking them every which way. Like it’s ok to be a cnut as long as you’re open about it.
 
Corbyn expressed his doubts about the EU in the past, there wasn't exactly any gusto in his rhetoric to remain, and now he is intent on the UK being removed. All of it makes it obvious enough that he isn't the pro-EU idealist that people still appear to dream of him becoming in order to thwart Brexit at the last moment.

With all of that said, what are the fundamental issues behind Corbyn's opposition to the EU? If all of this isn't necessarily stemming from his opposition to the EU, then what is the long game in terms of domestic politics?

I'm sure there are some people here who knew of him long before he became fashionable and have a greater insight into what his intentions are.
I remember him commenting on the Eurozone in particular and he thought it was a bad idea, he said something along the lines of "You will just see the northern countries get stronger and the southern countries suffering"

Well, he's not wrong on that point.
 
I remember him commenting on the Eurozone in particular and he thought it was a bad idea, he said something along the lines of "You will just see the northern countries get stronger and the southern countries suffering"

Well, he's not wrong on that point.

I see this point made a lot, and I've even said it myself on numerous occasions. The problem is, I don't really know what I'm talking about, and my grasp of economics is pretty shite, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to see if there's any truth to it.
 
I remember him commenting on the Eurozone in particular and he thought it was a bad idea, he said something along the lines of "You will just see the northern countries get stronger and the southern countries suffering"

Well, he's not wrong on that point.

Whereas if it wasn't for the Eurozone the southern countries would be booming and the northern countries would be suffering?
 
Whereas if it wasn't for the Eurozone the southern countries would be booming and the northern countries would be suffering?

Yeah, I always found this idea bullshit. Nobody forced the southern European economies to rely on shitty growth plans and corruption. All those problems we see today have been present for decades, it's not the Euros fault. In fact, the EUro and the prospect of a stable currency would have been a great starting point for reform, yet it was used for fraudulent politics.
 
I see this point made a lot, and I've even said it myself on numerous occasions. The problem is, I don't really know what I'm talking about, and my grasp of economics is pretty shite, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to see if there's any truth to it.
Are you being serious?
 
Yeah, I always found this idea bullshit. Nobody forced the southern European economies to rely on shitty growth plans and corruption. All those problems we see today have been present for decades, it's not the Euros fault. In fact, the EUro and the prospect of a stable currency would have been a great starting point for reform, yet it was used for fraudulent politics.
Yeah, those decades long corrupt countries are exactly the type you invite into your monetary union. Feck me. Are you sure?
 
I see this point made a lot, and I've even said it myself on numerous occasions. The problem is, I don't really know what I'm talking about, and my grasp of economics is pretty shite, so I wouldn't even know where to begin to see if there's any truth to it.
The thought is that a country undergoing a debt crisis, if they have debt denominated in their own currency they can just increase the money supply and inflate their way out of the debt crisis. You can do similar to attempt to alleviate any balance of payments problem, by devaluing your own currency and therefore making your exports relatively cheaper and imports more expensive. When Greece when through their debt crisis they had no ability to change their monetary supply because its controlled by the ECB.

Its one of the oldest arguments in economics which goes back 100 years now (was being argued back in the 20s with Germany's post-WWI reparations, debt and resulting hyperinflation). Its more detailed than left v right, but to put it generically the left believes that developing countries should stay aware and keep their currency relatively undervalued to help with domestic industry and exports, whilst the right believes that you should let your relative currency value float freely, keep your govt accounts healthy and low capital constraints to allow you to attract more investments both into funding govt debt and also the private sector.
 
The thought is that a country undergoing a debt crisis, if they have debt denominated in their own currency they can just increase the money supply and inflate their way out of the debt crisis. You can do similar to attempt to alleviate any balance of payments problem, by devaluing your own currency and therefore making your exports relatively cheaper and imports more expensive. When Greece when through their debt crisis they had no ability to change their monetary supply because its controlled by the ECB.

Its one of the oldest arguments in economics which goes back 100 years now (was being argued back in the 20s with Germany's post-WWI reparations, debt and resulting hyperinflation). Its more detailed than left v right, but to put it generically the left believes that developing countries should stay aware and keep their currency relatively undervalued to help with domestic industry and exports, whilst the right believes that you should let your relative currency value float freely, keep your govt accounts healthy and low capital constraints to allow you to attract more investments both into funding govt debt and also the private sector.

An actual answer! I asked in order to improve my understanding and somebody delivers. Thanks for that. Greatly appreciated.
 
If you say so, you know the truth though.

Yes I do, Greece was doing OK up to the crisis 10 years ago. Notwithstanding it lied, as did Italy, about its debt when it joined the Euro. It has taken longer to recover but it is recovering. Possibly overtaken the UK now?
If it wasn't in the Euro it could have devalued its currency, that went well for the UK in the 60s.

But the point is that the UK isn't in and wasn't going to be in the Eurozone, so what was Corbyn on about?
 
Yes I do, Greece was doing OK up to the crisis 10 years ago. Notwithstanding it lied, as did Italy, about its debt when it joined the Euro. It has taken longer to recover but it is recovering. Possibly overtaken the UK now?
If it wasn't in the Euro it could have devalued its currency, that went well for the UK in the 60s.

But the point is that the UK isn't in and wasn't going to be in the Eurozone, so what was Corbyn on about?
Well not really, when you cant devalue your currency you have to devalue from within. Greece have done that with extreme measures. Thats austerity for you.
 
Well not really, when you cant devalue your currency you have to devalue from within. Greece have done that with extreme measures. Thats austerity for you.

The UK have applied austerity too and they are not in the Eurozone.
If you devalue the currency that's all very well making your exports cheaper but your imports become more expensive so your deficit could get even wider if you import more than you export.
But anyway, you didn't reply about Corbyn, whether it's true or not about the north/south question why does this worry Corbyn in relation to the UK.
 
Whereas if it wasn't for the Eurozone the southern countries would be booming and the northern countries would be suffering?
well not exactly, you asking this for arguments sake. Wasn't Italy the 7th largest economy in the world? is it now? My point is that they now have no tool to do anything about it except devalue from within, that's not working at all. From a doc I saw on the telly France was a big player in persuading the EU to allow the southern countries join the Eurozone and why? Shame, shame at thought of being the weakest country in the Eurozone, that's just vanity. Still it was just a documentary so must be bollox.
 
Flicking through my company facebook page the other day and noticed a few likes from someone with an 'I'm voting UKIP' banner on their picture. I checked out their feed and it was literally nothing but shared memes about illegal immigrant rape gangs, halal, 'young people should be grateful that we won the war' (despite them not being old enough to fight in it) and 'share if you remember'....

Is it fair to say there are people out there who have been 'radicalised' by social media? I don't want to use the stupid label but I certainly think most sensible people would probably avoid a conversation with such an individual.
 
well not exactly, you asking this for arguments sake. Wasn't Italy the 7th largest economy in the world? is it now? My point is that they now have no tool to do anything about it except devalue from within, that's not working at all. From a doc I saw on the telly France was a big player in persuading the EU to allow the southern countries join the Eurozone and why? Shame, shame at thought of being the weakest country in the Eurozone, that's just vanity. Still it was just a documentary so must be bollox.

Italy has been overtaken by India, which is hardly surprising but is still 8th. India will overtake the UK soon as well. Greece's deficit is coming down, it's taken a longer time. Greece's problems are more complicated than the Euro argument. Greece and Italy concealed some of their debt to enable them to join the Euro which was discovered later.
It's the $64 million question, would they be better off outside the Euro.

We may have an answer to another $64million question next year when(if) the UK leaves the EU.
 
Is Stanley the closest thing to a leaver in this thread atm? Have all the leavers... Left?
 
Italy has been overtaken by India, which is hardly surprising but is still 8th. India will overtake the UK soon as well. Greece's deficit is coming down, it's taken a longer time. Greece's problems are more complicated than the Euro argument. Greece and Italy concealed some of their debt to enable them to join the Euro which was discovered later.
It's the $64 million question, would they be better off outside the Euro.

We may have an answer to another $64million question next year when(if) the UK leaves the EU.

Also for context regarding France in 1999.

https://www.economist.com/node/209559