I figured as much. Just a way to elevate themselves above what they actually are and ignore some 'dem damn immigrunts' abuse themselves.
What a load of hypocritical, racist, elitist bollocks.
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I figured as much. Just a way to elevate themselves above what they actually are and ignore some 'dem damn immigrunts' abuse themselves.
What a load of hypocritical, racist, elitist bollocks.
I'm still referring to Germany. And yes, here we can do it. In fact, all of the EU can do that. And of nothing else but the U.K. exporting 87% of its fish to the EU, while it only makes up 2,3 of German imports, where we talking here.
And yes, people eat less fish when it is more expensive. That is the reason why overall consumption of fish in Germany has gone down considerably over the last 10 years. What the feck man, do you even try?
With the Tory party backpeddling furiously regarding FOM and the UK share in the EU budget, I won't be surprised if the UK remains part of the EU after all
It (Brexit) currently feels like something you promised to do at 2 in the morning on a boozy night out. Now the bravado is wearing off as the hangover kicks in. Commentators are speculating about a Norway/EEA solution but even that seems ridiculous given how much skin the UK has in the game. For example, the largest financial centre in Europe would not have any input into financial services legislation across the continent.
Good analogy. Although I'm note even sure there was much bravado in the first place. Just some devious wankers manipulating public sentiment for personal/political gain. They probably didn't expect to win and absolutely had no plans for dealing with the realities of of triggering Article 50.
That's certainly true of Johnson who thought this was Oxford student politics and looked genuinely petrified on the morning the results came in. I am thinking more of ideologues like David Davis who just maybe are starting to realise how difficult this is going to be. We need Graham Chapman to walk in and announce that this is all getting a bit silly.
Anyone who loves a bit of history as I do, think its far more complex then that. The UK had never been European in the first place. Since Roman times a strong Europe (or part of Europe) was always bad news for them while a fragmented Europe had allowed the UK to prosper through trade, dominance over the sea and colonialism. Its within the UK people subconscious to hate the very concept of a strong Europe as its within the European psyche to hate/be scared shit of a strong Russia even though, most of the time, a strong Russia had been good for Europe rather then a hindrance (It did stop Napoleon and Hitler and when it wasn't able to stop invaders ie like the mongols or the huns, Europe got hurt big time).
Brexit is just another attempt to break the EU down but here's the catch. Instead of breaking the EU it made countries gang up together and against the Uk. Even traditional allies to the UK (The Dutch, the Danes, the Swedes and the Maltese) seem to have made it quite clear that the EU is more important to them than the UK. That's not something the UK is used to. They are used to the divide and conquer ie pitting the French against the Germans or the Germans against the French etc. That's how things work for them and this is simply not happening despite the million and one article the Express seem to post about the end of the EU.
To make matter worse there's no US or Russia to bail them out these time round. Trump doesn't like trade deals very much and Putin doesn't have any special affection towards a country who accuses him of everything under the sun.
In my opinion the EU should push to a hard Brexit or at least the UK being relegated to an EEA deal. The aim here is not to punish the UK. In the EEA the UK will have unrestricted access to the single market which will allow London to keep its status as the financial city in the world etc. The aim here is to simply remove the UK influence in Europe. The EU can't afford having an enemy within its camp in such delicate stage of the project and we've had too much of that from the UK camp.
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That's a fair point of view (I remember it first time round) but I don't really agree. Another 20 years and this issue would have faded away as most of the people who have grown up since the UK joining the EEC/EU don't feel this contradiction between being British and European. Some younger people are anti-EU of course (let's call them the "losers from globalisation"), but that's the same in other European countries. What tipped the UK vote was the older generations who, although they might be prosperous, have never really accepted the EU and cling to an idea of British/English exceptionalism.
As for history, England/UK has been fully connected with Europe for most of its history apart from the Empire period. It is true that it has generally tried to prevent a European hegemon arising but it is not as though the French were thrilled with the Habsburgs or the Austrians wanted Louis XIV or Napoleon to dominate the continent.
He makes a fair point in that even though the UK has, in recent years, been part of the EU there's always been that slight disconnect in that we never wanted to adopt the Euro, and arguably made the most noise about things like free movement etc. Our detachment geographically has always left us more separated from France/Germany than other surrounding countries.
I fully agree that we were not part of the core and were sometimes prickly but that's not to say we were destined to leave. The current mess is at least partially attributable to a lack of flexibility and imagination on the part of EU leaders, trying to maintain a one size fits all approach which has been disastrous in other areas. The decision to stay out of the euro was simply the UK (kudos to Brown and Ed Balls) choosing to put economic literacy ahead of politics. Without that unusually powerful Chancellor, I think Blair could have pushed it through with his huge majorities.
Late to comment on that but I wonder if you actually follow what the EP does, which rights they have and actually execute. I have no doubt that it's harder to follow that via English media but it's possible via the EU's websites, you can talk to your local MEPs, follow different EU party websites, etc. It's also possible to observe who voted in which way on which individual subject, both the Council and EP. You can see draft regulations and directives and how they evolve to the final versions, follow the legislative process etc. Therefore, I oppose that the EU isn't democratic, are not accountable or whatever.
BTW: Your comment regarding Germany is BS, sorry. It's funny to see though that some myths simply live forever.
If it was a generational thing then the uk would have been more brexit during the 90s then now. Its not the case. Anti eu sentiment increased in line to eu federalism. Once the eu started talking about becoming more of a political union the uk started getting more anti eu. I mean take the eu army as an example. What is wrong with it? Why on earth should the richest continent in the world be militarily lead by the us? But the uk go bezerk whenever talks about a eu army are discussed
I don't blame the uk to be scared shit of a unified europe. As said it made sense 4 them as a unified europe was bad news for them. However its also fair for us to move on without constantly being challenged and undermined by the enemy within. The brits wanted the cake, let them eat it
Fair enough. No, I dont follow Europe closely using any of those sources. I keep half an eye on it by reading The Economist.
As for my comment about Germany, you will notice if you look back at my post that I said "there is a sense", rather than "it is actually the case". I understand that the reality is more nuanced than the perception. But ask people in Greece who drives European policy, I think the answer will be overwhelmingly that it is Germany. Whether that perception is 100% inaccurate is something we could probably debate endlessly. But in a sense none of that matters, if you read all the posts from that exchange the other day you will see that I am talking about the survival of the EU and in that sense perception is as important as reality, probably more so. If the political developments of 2016 have taught us anything it is surely that.
Three days old and dismissed but find it amusing whether it's government's strategy or just an aide's notes from a meeting somewhere in Downing street:
Handwritten note photographed in hands of Tory aide on Downing Street says: ‘What’s the model? Have cake and eat it’
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stay-in-single-market-tory-document-suggests
Dismissed by Greg Clark:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...misses-having-cake-and-eating-it-brexit-notes
Handwritten note photographed in hands of Tory aide on Downing Street says: ‘What’s the model? Have cake and eat it’
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stay-in-single-market-tory-document-suggests
Dismissed by Greg Clark:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...misses-having-cake-and-eating-it-brexit-notes
I don't know if the Economist is the best source for following the EU's work.
If you're interested, check the UK's votes (Council and MEPs) on various subjects. If more voters were doing it, it would be much harder for any politician to use the EU as a scapegoat. http://www.votewatch.eu/Don't get me wrong: The EU is far from being perfect. But many of the allegations are either untrue or not worse than in most parliaments and governments of EU member states.
It might be a perception but it's not true nevertheless. If people are too lazy (obviously I am not referring to you) to use their brain but endulge in scapegouting and let themselves easily manipulated, there's nothing that can be done: THAT is the sad lesson from Brexit and the US elections.
As Le Pen said on the Marr show.
"The EU is like making everybody wear the same suit, for some it fits, for others it's too tight or too big and it's been Tailored in Germany"
When Le Pen is used as a reference something is really wrong.
It is, the EU
To be fair, I much preferred that quote to her one where she passionately endorses the Fuhrer.
No, the problem is that France are at the heart of the creation of the EU and everyone knows that so blaming Germany is interesting from a french politician. And Le Pen and her party are the most dishonest politicians around and the demonstration of everything that can go wrong in politics, nepotism, disinformation, negationism, fraud.
A certain section of the UK population has always been anti-EU, believing, for example, that the original referendum in 1975 was rigged. I don't think sentiment has changed among such people, it's just that no leader before Cameron was naive enough to put the question to a popular vote. You are right that there was no appetite for a federal Europe (even with Remain supporters like me) but the UK had an opt out anyway.
As for the EU army, that would require the EU countries to allocate funds to defence rather than freeload off the US. Also, how would it work in practice give the prevalence of Russian influence in certain countries? I wouldn't even trust Germany in that regard (their ex-Chancellor is a Putinversteher working for Gazprom).
The most dishonest is not much better than the least dishonest
A political union and a federal EU is off the table since the rejection of the European Constitution by the French in 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005
I think this was the turning point. It left Europe without a purpose and people started blaming all ills on the EU... I still believe that the unification of Europe was, and still is, a noble idea, worth to strive for. If nothing else, it has saved Europe from wars for 70 years, not a small feat considering the history of the continent.
The current problems have nothing to do with the EU, since USA has the same problems and actually the financial meltdown started in USA, not in Europe. The root of the problem is the financial situation: in the last 30 years there has been a great advancement in productivity due to computers and automation. However, even though people now produce more with less effort (because of the machines) this has actually lead to more financial uncertainty and more stressful jobs. It was great for the billionaires, but not for the rest of us.
"Record 94 million Americans Not in Labor Force"
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...cans-not-labor-force-participation-rate-drops
I don't understand your use of the 2005 election, people voted against Chirac.
*Italian referendum likely to fail
Strong nationalist movements in France
Strong nationalist about to take charge of Austria
The Euro being patched together over and over again
Youth unemployment at shocking levels
Backlash from communities re intake of migrants at unprecedented levels
EU banks fragile
Nationalist movements in Holland
Etc
Etc*
Tell me more about how the EU is a strong community, fit for purpose and the UK would be foolish to leave!
Strong nationalist movements in France
Strong nationalist about to take charge of Austria
The Euro being patched together over and over again
Youth unemployment at shocking levels
Backlash from communities re intake of migrants at unprecedented levels
EU banks fragile
Nationalist movements in Holland
Etc
Etc*
Tell me more about how the EU is a strong community, fit for purpose and the UK would be foolish to leave!
just to be clear, a lot of people I speak to agree with me that it's the gradual morphing of 'let's trade together' into 'let's develop centralised laws that all of us need to follow, let's integrate communities, feck it let's have a single army approach' etc that has people wound up.
Even if they scrap it all, start from scratch and are open about here's what we ideally want - I might even be receptive! But who knows what they're dreaming up over the next 20years?! No thanks!
Even if they scrap it all, start from scratch and are open about here's what we ideally want - I might even be receptive! But who knows what they're dreaming up over the next 20years?! No thanks!
Well ask that to the Brexiteers who keep backpaddling furiously and are desperate for access to the single movement
The problem is that the EU find it a bit scandalous to ask countries to give unrestricted access to someone market and money but then slam the door to their people. It doesn't even make sense for them and actually think its a bit unfair if not xenophobic to ask that.
There again it accepts that others might have a different opinion. Hence why it permits countries to change their mind regarding freedom of movement as long as they don't expect unrestricted access to the single market.
When you talk about what 'the EU feel' - you do realise that is some bunch of old out of touch bureaucrats sitting in Brussels rather than the actual people of these nations, which is the cause of this major wind-up right?
Ps see the news re insurgencies of nationalist movements throughout as proof.
So if they demand a clean-cutaway then they're 'delusionary and stupid', if they attempt access to the single market (of which most nations on the planet have btw, but let's leave that to a side), then they are 'furiously backpeddling'?
Do you think the UK economy can operate independently from all of that? With or without Brexit?
If the whole European economy goes completely tits up then Britain is being taken down with it, whether or not they're part of the EU. It's in Britain's interest for the EU to be as strong as possible. The best way to help is from the inside.
No one calls anyone anything. Europe would love the UK to demand a clean cutaway. They have been begging you to activate the damn thing since you voted for Brexit.
I bet they have realised that the project is much better off without a country who keep sending Ukipers and whose best scenario is for the EU project to burn in flames so that they can return to the divide and conquer tactics that served them so well for many centuries
The ones hesitating is not Europe but you. You keep negotiating with one another giving Europe concessions that haven't asked in the first place (EU immigrants who live in the UK should remain there, willingness to pay in the single market and 4 ambassadors just said that your foreign secretary has said that he's not that much against FOM).
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Well, if you think that the head of states of each and every 27 country is old out of touch bureaucrats then by all means go ahead. To be fair, not everyone can have young, vibrant and in touch prime ministers, Brexit ministers and foreign secretaries as the UK has. Whose the prime minister exactly? Natalie Dormer right?
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I love people who think this about the EU, as though it's a non-elected group of bond villains making all of the decisions
Anti Europe sentiment increased with federalism and a decline in the UK trading with the EU. Lets face it mate, you don't like Europe very much. You're closer to the US then you're with the French and the Germans.
Regarding Russia, I believe that its time for Europe to accept our 'noisy' neighbour and learn to live with it. I've got friends from Ukraine and Estonia and I can assure you that they did poke the bear in numerous occasions, by treating Russian speaking citizens badly and indirectly discriminating them. An Estonian friend of mine moved to the UK to study mainly because she was discriminated in her own country despite having high grades. They did so because of her Russian surname. The EU must stop closing an eye to that.
However that doesn't mean the EU doesn't have to have an army. Federalism is the future (which unlike what others say it worked successful as witnessed by the Chin empire, the Roman empire, the holy roman empire, The United States of America and the Russian Federation) and all of them have an army. We cant have our foreign policy being decided by third parties like the UK or the US and for sure we need to remove that bargaining chip from their hands
I disagree with the premise of 'stay with the EU and be outward and open' rather than errr....being able to discuss trade terms with other countries around the world!
The EU bloc, in my eyes is the epitome of a protectionist bloc, closed mindedness etc. The project (of transferring cash from bigger nations to smaller poorer ones) is the epitome of socialism (on steroids!), I am philosophically against both, and on top am alarmed (and angry) it came to this via the back door, simples.
Seems many are in the same boat as I.
Sorry? this is not about the EU you say? I am confused mate (and maybe you are more!)I love people who think this about the EU, as though it's a non-elected group of bond villains making all of the decisions
Don't worry we are going, we've voted out....minor detail that many seem to want to forget!
You are against socialism but have chosen to move to Canada. Makes perfect sense
TBH they are more conservative than it seems!
I am pragmatic - if we have tons of cash then I'm all for splashing it around, if we are under hardship, I am for being a bit more conservative and thoughtful.
I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative re statement that I am 'against' socialism.