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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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Don't Kill Bill said:
When was the last time the North of England Voted Tory though? They didn't vote for the referendum party you guys did.

So when I compare and contrast your views about that monumental cock up you remain strangely silent and sanguine regarding that side of the Brexit equation.

I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs North or South and it is not me wishing ill on those who voted the other way to me in the referendum to serve them right.

It does strike me, that this all got taken much more seriously when jobs based mostly in the south get threatened and the bile that pours out is telling.

Why is your focus on who is to blame for Brexit, not on the Welsh, East Anglia or Kent?

Much easier to scapegoat Sunderland and the North.
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I'm not demonising the north- I'm northern. As for the potential job losses, I pointed out that apparently two thirds of financial services jobs are based outside of London and the Nissan factory is obviously near Sunderland.

Er, you sure the north, outside of the urban areas, didn't vote Tory?

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Wow, I never thought of that, if you discount most of the people who live in the North and vote Labour then it voted conservative. Well done you proved your point, I'm wrong, paint me blue and call me Tarquin.
 
If square-footage could vote, we'd have permanent Tory rule. Though to be fair at the current rate...
 
Stanley Road said:
People voted tory cos they wanted a referendum
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No, it was mainly because Labour were so piss poor, had many years to address issues important to the voters, and again proved themselves to be economically incompetent despite having a period of prosperity gifted them.
 
Stanley Road said:
Well they knew what they were getting so yes really
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People voted Tory for many reasons: some did so due to ideological reasons, party loyalty, tactical reasons, a belief they were economically competent, a belief Cameron was a good leader, and some perceived Ed Miliband as a weak alternative, and his party as one who couldn't be trusted. The prospect of an EU referendum was, at best, a minimal reason.
 
So you're saying Tory voters were a bit bleeding thick then, because now the referendum seems to be the biggest thing since world war two for many, yet Tory plans couldn't have been made clearer in the election campaign.

Just admit people who voted Tory yet who are vehemently opposed to Brexit have only themselves to blame and we can move on.
 
People who voted Tory voted for a referendum. For the vast majority that wasn't why they voted Tory but it was one of the consequences their vote carried.
 
@Cheesy has it right, the vast majority assumed that the Tories couldn't get a majority and that a referendum would go by the wayside in negotiations with the Lib Dems. Though I also have sympathy with the idea that Tory voting remainers brought it on themselves.
 
Ubik said:
@Cheesy has it right, the vast majority assumed that the Tories couldn't get a majority and that a referendum would go by the wayside in negotiations with the Lib Dems. Though I also have sympathy with the idea that Tory voting remainers brought it on themselves.
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I also think it's worth noting that the general perception was often that a referendum would be for Remain: the main voice for Leave was the highly divisive Farage whose party had only a couple of Tory defecting MP's from by-elections, and Cameron had managed to create a perception of his party being more pro-EU than they really were. There was no guarantee of key names like Boris and Gove jumping in for a Leave campaign at the time...and the vote was often originally touted to be in 2017, which meant it would've felt like a long time away from any major vote.

I do think those who voted Tory in 2015 should've been aware at the time that no matter how liberal Cameron and Osborne may have appeared on certain issues and no matter how European they may have touted their party as being, they were ultimately always siding with a party that's deeply Eurosceptic at its core.
 
A better way of asking the question...

Were most Tory members and voters in favour of a referendum on the EU? I'd say that the answer was yes, particularly with Labour's Lisbon Treaty deceit a recent memory.

Ironically, the Liberal Democrats were not at all keen on the idea of an EU Con vote, stating that they wanted a clear In or Out referendum. They were supposed to get a different result i am assuming.
 
712 said:
So you're saying Tory voters were a bit bleeding thick then, because now the referendum seems to be the biggest thing since world war two for many, yet Tory plans couldn't have been made clearer in the election campaign.

Just admit people who voted Tory yet who are vehemently opposed to Brexit have only themselves to blame and we can move on.
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Arguably in some respects, but obviously no-one anticipated the outcome. The option of Miliband was not exactly a draw in the other way though.
 
Jippy said:
Arguably in some respects, but obviously no-one anticipated the outcome. The option of Miliband was not exactly a draw in the other way though.
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Out of interest, would you take a Miliband administration with us still in the EU ahead of the current one outside of it?
 
Cheesy said:
I also think it's worth noting that the general perception was often that a referendum would be for Remain: the main voice for Leave was the highly divisive Farage whose party had only a couple of Tory defecting MP's from by-elections, and Cameron had managed to create a perception of his party being more pro-EU than they really were. There was no guarantee of key names like Boris and Gove jumping in for a Leave campaign at the time...and the vote was often originally touted to be in 2017, which meant it would've felt like a long time away from any major vote.
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2010 was the most Eurosceptic intake of MPs in years, so i really have to disagree with you there. The Coalition also sustained some of its biggest revolts on EU related matters. If anything, Cameron spent much of his time trying to portray himself as more anti-Brussels that he actually was. Eventually, he got found out.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
2010 was the most Eurosceptic intake of MPs in years, so i really have to disagree with you there. The Coalition also sustained some of its biggest revolts on EU related matters. If anything, Cameron spent much of his time trying to portray himself as more anti-Brussels that he actually was. Eventually, he got found out.
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Most people ultimately vote for the party as opposed to the MP, though. Cameron did try to appear hardline on certain EU matters but he was still ultimately in strong opposition to Brexit and his proposed reforms were mostly laughed out the door by those in favour of leaving.
 
Cheesy said:
Out of interest, would you take a Miliband administration with us still in the EU ahead of the current one outside of it?
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That's a very good question. In hindsight maybe yes, at a push, but purely on that one issue.
Stanley Road said:
The option was chance of leaving vs not voting tory. Simple as that.
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Yeah, but it was seen as such a peripheral issue and barely a risk worth considering. As above, hindsight is a glorious thing. Even the staunchest Labour fans are admitting that they've been a shitshow for the best part of a decade now. And even as a historic Tory voter, I'd welcome a credible opposition.
 
Cheesy said:
Most people ultimately vote for the party as opposed to the MP, though. Cameron did try to appear hardline on certain EU matters but he was still ultimately in strong opposition to Brexit and his proposed reforms were mostly laughed out the door by those in favour of leaving.
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The point being, that 2010 onwards was not presented as being more pro-EU. on the contrary in fact. His reforms were rightly laughed out of town. More to the point, his conduct since those negotiations demonstrated quite amply what a sham they were. Not that the European Union took the threat of Brexit the least bit seriously either, but still.
 
Cheesy said:
I also think it's worth noting that the general perception was often that a referendum would be for Remain:
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True, in fact I started the original referendum thread on that basis, with complaints that whilst I was hoping to win money on betting Remain, I was disappointed by the odds.

I've still not seen anyone on here taking responsibility though. The thread's chock full of people claiming to be cleverer, better educated, worldly-wise and prosperous than average, but seemingly without the humility to admit being unable to read a manifesto.
 
712 said:
True, in fact I started the original referendum thread on that basis, with complaints that whilst I was hoping to win money on betting Remain, I was disappointed by the odds.

I've still not seen anyone on here taking responsibility though. The thread's chock full of people claiming to be cleverer, better educated, worldly-wise and prosperous than average, but seemingly without the humility to admit being unable to read a manifesto.
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I think the majority of Labour voters voted to remain as well which makes the desire to blame the North of England very odd. In the general election, the labour leader refused to offer the referendum just to help win power exactly because it was inherently destabilising and economically dangerous.

If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?

Easier to blame people from Sunderland than themselves perhaps.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
I think the majority of Labour voters voted to remain as well which makes the desire to blame the North of England very odd. In the general election, the labour leader refused to offer the referendum just to help win power exactly because it was inherently destabilising and economically dangerous.

If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?

Easier to blame people from Sunderland than themselves perhaps.
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Not sue why you're obsessed with this notion that the north is blamed for Brexit. It was pretty well documented that the likes of Cornwall and pretty much all of England voted out, barring London and the odd regional pocket here and there, like Leicester.
 
The main reason why Tories won the GE was Nick Clegg. He screwed the liberals by making a deal to prop up Cameron and then screwed them even harder by propping up their policies too.

The split of Liberal voters caused a major shift in balanced areas and Cameron managed to gain 24 seats with only 0.9% more of the vote than in the previous election. Both Labour and Conservatives made gains in voters and Labour in fact made even bigger gains than the Conservatives but it wasn't able to capitalise in key balanced areas.

One of the main reasons for that was Camerons tactics with the debates where he put in front of the people a bigger choice of candidates witg similar policies who despite not having any chance of ruling the country would have every chance to sway voters. By changing the fabric of the election from a two horse race to one centre right in conservative and several centre left parties he effectively killed any logical gains Labour should have made from the Lib Dems.

They played it brilliantly by instilling the fear of Ed being propped up by the SNP in the very likely event of a hung parliament while playing down the UKIP connection at the same time on their end because they were only looking for a majority government. It forced Labour to keep denying this. It was Cameron who gave SNP the platform to destroy Labour in Scotland.

Utimately played into the hands of the grand puppet master Murdoch's propaganda machines and they have done so for decades so I don't know why we even bother.

I will repeat what I said before, screw you Nick Clegg!
 
I think the chattering classes expected the Tory rank and file to be awkward on Europe, the Euroscepticism was of long-standing after all. Traditional Labour constituencies on other hand, were supposed to do as they were told. Maybe there was an expectation that voting behaviour would echo that of a general election, yet even in that scenario there were indicators of shifting sentiment as recently as 2015. I'm not sure why many of thee areas should have been so obliging either, not considering the complacency with which they have been viewed by all of the main parties.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I think the chattering classes expected the Tory rank and file to be awkward on Europe, the Euroscepticism was of long-standing after all. Traditional Labour constituencies on other hand, were supposed to do as they were told. Maybe there was an expectation that voting behaviour would echo that of a general election, yet even in that scenario there were indicators of shifting sentiment as recently as 2015. I'm not sure why many of thee areas should have been so obliging either, not considering the complacency with which they have been viewed by all of the main parties.
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Labour constituencies did as they were told by their leader. They dithered exactly like him not being sure what the message was. They were as conflicted as Jeremy was during that whole campaign.
 
Ultimate Grib said:
It was Cameron who gave SNP the platform to destroy Labour in Scotland.
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I think if you ask the Scottish voters on here you'll receive a somewhat different answer. Labour has been laying the foundations for this decline over a number of years, so much so that the Tories have since overtaken them in Holyrood.
 
Jippy said:
Not sue why you're obsessed with this notion that the north is blamed for Brexit. It was pretty well documented that the likes of Cornwall and pretty much all of England voted out, barring London and the odd regional pocket here and there, like Leicester.
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Because it is being, it shouldn't be and I thought you were doing so about five posts back and I'm hearing it in the media in general. While all you say about the voting demographic is true the truth is not what it used to be.

So when I hear talk about the North-South divide and subsidising the North and how that is not going to go down well because they voted Brexit. I start to get that uneasy feeling that politically it is much easier to give people a financial kicking if you can point a finger at them and say they brought it on themselves.

Everyone who talks about England voting leave should be required by law to add and Wales.

Everyone who uses Sunderland as an example should be forced to use Milton Keynes the same number of times.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I think if you ask the Scottish voters on here you'll receive a somewhat different answer. Labour has been laying the foundations for this decline over a number of years, so much so that the Tories have since overtaken them in Holyrood.
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Sure Labour hasn't put much effort into Scotland for a lot of years because they considered them safe seats but the credit for the rise of the SNP remains with David Cameron's campaign team and the charisma and eloquence of Nicola Sturgeon. I remember during those debates reading many opinions of people wishing they could vote for her south of the border.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Because it is being, it shouldn't be and I thought you were doing so about five posts back and I'm hearing it in the media in general. While all you say about the voting demographic is true the truth is not what it used to be.

So when I hear talk about the North-South divide and subsidising the North and how that is not going to go down well because they voted Brexit. I start to get that uneasy feeling that politically it is much easier to give people a financial kicking if you can point a finger at them and say they brought it on themselves.

Everyone who talks about England voting leave should be required by law to add and Wales.

Everyone who uses Sunderland as an example should be forced to use Milton Keynes the same number of times.
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Fair enough. The north-south divide is sadly all too real though- the daft thing is that the south has as many shitholes, eg Croydon, Northampton, Southend etc... as the north, but has a weird superiority complex.
Certain people up north seem to be taking a weird glee in the City being fecked over, despite it being 12% of the UK's GDP. It is understandable that people knock the apparently willful destructiveness of Brexit.
 
Jippy said:
Fair enough. The north-south divide is sadly all too real though- the daft thing is that the south has as many shitholes, eg Croydon, Northampton, Southend etc... as the north, but has a weird superiority complex.
Certain people up north seem to be taking a weird glee in the City being fecked over, despite it being 12% of the UK's GDP. It is understandable that people knock the apparently willful destructiveness of Brexit.
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Its likely that those people you mention don't even know what GDP is or even what percentages are.

Now I'm not saying they are stupid people but it was true that 27/30 areas with the least graduates voted to leave so maybe I am.

It may seem arbitrary but its most likely true because you have to be stupid to cut your nose off to spite your face. Screw those bankers and their million pound bonuses we're getting our country back.

It was funny how before the referendum all I could read on social media was leavers playing down famous people of different talents and backgrounds advocating remain as a "well off" elite and that Brexit would somehow shift this balance of power from the elite to the people who would then become "well off". Haven't seen any brexiteers claim this power since then. They've all disappeared!
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?
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It was never taken seriously basically. The Tory party had been fundamentally split for decades along the euro issue, and when UKIP arrived on the scene for a while it released some of the pressure by removed the most extreme members, but then over time became an actual threat to the Tories. A large part of the Tory party saw the referendum as exactly what it was intended to be, a pointless waste of time and effort to release some of the growing euro-spectic energy, and return things to a more stable situation. No-one in politics seriously thought it would actually pass, the idea seemed ridiculous.
 
Tony Blair needs to stick to his paid speeches rather than making the issue about himself the narcissist.
 
Tony Blair needs to crawl back to whichever rock he's been living under for the past number of years and keep his mouth shut, especially when it comes to misinformation because he's in no place to comment or pass judgement on recent events.
 
He's right in much of what he says, can't believe he doesn't realise he's hindrance to that message being listened to though.
 
I'd guess that Blair wants to further undermine Corbyn as much as anything. Many people will inevitably moan about Iraq, while many others will get behind the message and give the middle finger to Corbyn and his unconvincing vision for Labour.
 
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